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Doomforge
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posted September 28, 2023 12:38 AM |
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Panda_Tar said:
I believe both sides, West or East, could be blamed for what's happening.
Wat
Dude, one country literally invaded the other.
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2023 06:05 AM |
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Thats not so simple, there are hundreds of articles and videos from top analysts about multiple causes, you just are not interested into hear them.
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gnollking
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posted September 28, 2023 06:38 AM |
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there is no "cause" that justifies invading another country in the modern age
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2023 06:45 AM |
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Tell that to George Bush and every NATO member who participated in Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yugoslavia conflicts.
You guys always want new rules, but only from 2021 and up.
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gnollking
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posted September 28, 2023 08:46 AM |
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By "modern age" I meant after the renaissance or something lol.
Believe it or not, I am indeed against all wars.
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2023 09:47 AM |
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Nobody is "for" wars, "I am against war" is another useless catchword. Yet we build weapons, tons of them. War is the last way to solve what you can't by other means, and that's why everyone is prepared.
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Doomforge
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posted September 28, 2023 10:56 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Thats not so simple, there are hundreds of articles and videos from top analysts about multiple causes, you just are not interested into hear them.
Causes don't matter. A country invaded another. End of story. There is nothing that can justify this, no matter how butthurt or endangered Putin felt.
Invader takes 100% blame for the war, it is his decision to start a war. Nobody coerced, tricked or forced him to do so.
Salamandre said:
Tell that to George Bush and every NATO member who participated in Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yugoslavia conflicts.
You guys always want new rules, but only from 2021 and up.
Stop with the stupid whataboutism.
This is not a topic about the US.
Whatever the US did doesn't give other countries the right to do the same.
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Galaad
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Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 28, 2023 10:57 AM |
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Panda_Tar said:
Trudeau saying that Russian dis-information made Canadian parliament to stand an ovation for an ex-nazi veteran (because the guy is Ukrainian).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stgBboxHCQY
BBC source
What a circus.
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2023 11:32 AM |
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Doomforge said:
Causes don't matter.
Dude, you're polish. You hate Russians. You are deaf then to any argument, end of story.
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Galaad
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Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted September 28, 2023 11:36 AM |
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Doomforge said:
This is not a topic about the US.
Whatever the US did doesn't give other countries the right to do the same.
I agree there is absolutely no justification whatsoever about invading another country. We do try to analyze the situation though, and you can hardly leave the US out of the equation while doing so.
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Doomforge
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posted September 28, 2023 04:07 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Dude, you're polish. You hate Russians. You are deaf then to any argument, end of story.
So if I weren't Polish, I'd agree that there are reasons to invade other countries?
Interesting take
Quote:
I agree there is absolutely no justification whatsoever about invading another country. We do try to analyze the situation though, and you can hardly leave the US out of the equation while doing so.
Fair.
So, what would be your take on the role of US in this war?
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JollyJoker
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posted September 28, 2023 06:27 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Thats not so simple, there are hundreds of articles and videos from top analysts about multiple causes, you just are not interested into hear them.
It is. Because the official reason Putin gave was denazifying Ukraine, not because the US did or did not something - but both is complete nonsense. Because, as stated a hundred times, as of 2014, since there is a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, the Ukraine cannot become a NATO member, so the safest course to avoid that was to keep the status quo.
But that's both not what the war is about. Putin wants to receate the USSR. That's all there is to say about this, and there isn't anything to discuss as long as that is on the agenda.
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Panda_Tar
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posted September 28, 2023 06:45 PM |
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Galaad said:
BBC source
What a circus.
Tell me about it. I confess I didn't have much idea of what Trudeau was until most recently. For Brazilians in general, Canada is a country for the future, accordingly to the easier immigration politics.
I'm watching now Biden's Impeach hearing and it's so much like what has been happening here in Brazil, especially now the criminal has been 'elected'.
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Salamandre
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posted September 28, 2023 08:51 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Putin wants to receate the USSR.
There is zero evidence for that, neither in any of his speeches or on the terrain. There are realities to consider, you can't just make up things to fit what you want it to be.
For the record, the military force sent in Ukraine and which has fought for 10 months was around 150k men. You don't annex a country of 45 millions with peanuts. We don't know exactly what their task was, some say they went to military prevent a planned attack on Donbass, other to do a putsch and remove Zelensky, other say it was a diversion so ukrainean army would have to delay attack on Donbass, we don't know. And when I say some, I mean top analysts, top military and top employees from Pentagon, as we can hear on Dialogue Works, the paramount source to understand what's going on.
As this special operation screwed, and we saw it, they agreed to a negotiation at Istanbul in march, where we have witnesses as Turkish minister, Israeli minister and other diplomats, I previously gave the link but you people just ignored it because that make void your fairy tales.
In middle of negotiation, which was about to end with an accord stipulating Crimea will be recognized as Russian, Boris Johnson suddenly came by plane and exhorted Zelensky to reject any peace agreement, as EU and US will give him ANYTHING he needs in order to beat Russia on the war field. And thats why you have Zelensky shamelessly reclaiming everything to be given, because he was PROMISED to. And ukrainean negotiators being assassinated by SBU, OK?
The idea was that Russia will collapse due to economical sanctions, and will be unable to financially support the war, therefore will remove its army from Ukraine and will even break away, allowing US energy to become the first energy source for Europe.
The mainstream media created a whole narrative to fit this goal, "russian economy is going sown, Putin has 7 cancers, when one ukrainean blinks 20 russian drop dead'" and other nonsense, which has been enough proven that it was bollocks.
So thats it. You can ignore reality and continue the crap, who cares. Russia is annihilating Ukraine on the field then sanctions annihilate Europe's economy, all this because we created an ideology presenting russians as monsters, therefore there is nothing to negotiate with. Last time I heard an EU political leader talking about peace was july 2022. We lost the game and our minds.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 28, 2023 10:24 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
Putin wants to receate the USSR.
There is zero evidence for that, neither in any of his speeches or on the terrain.
Too foolish a thing to say to take you serious anymore. You could just as well be part of the Russian deinformation brigade that's active on social media.
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Salamandre
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posted September 29, 2023 05:08 AM |
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People are often confusing a certain russian nostalgia about a fallen empire with the desire of militarily recreating it, which is factually impossible, ground reality in Ukraine shows it. There is zero evidence about it in any of Putin's speeches, and he gave a lot of them.
Putin himself declared : "Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain." But is more convenient to label anyone as Kremlin agent for reminding simple facts.
All like Jeffrey Sachs, John Mearsheimer. Those are worth reading, they fool too?
I know, mainstream instantly reacts and "fact-checks" everyone speaking outside the main narrative, so don't waste time to link articles like "Mearsheimer is wrong, this is why", I've already read them. They are on same level as your assumptions, like :
"Ukraine joining NATO would hardly be a credible military threat to Russia as Ukraine would never dare launch attack on Russia",
which is a conscious dishonest reasoning, deliberately passing under silence the constant US expansion threat under NATO cover - with some 700 military bases basically bordering every of other nuclear powers (while requiring the Monroe doctrine for themselves only) and such.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 29, 2023 08:23 AM |
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And you don't know anything about history either. Ukraine could have joined NATO in 2008 already - but was REJECTED (by Germany and a second country, Italy, I think).
THEN Putin said, it was the decision of the Ukraine whether they wanted to join or not.
Since 2014 Ukraine CANNOT join NATO, since they are in a conflict with a third state (because if they WOULD join, NATO would become part of the conflict immediately). That is prohibited by NATO statutes.
So there wasn't ANY danger of Ukraine joining NATO. NONE whatsoever. Get that nonsense out of your mind, it's been never on anyone's agenda after 2008.
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Salamandre
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posted September 29, 2023 08:50 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
So there wasn't ANY danger of Ukraine joining NATO. NONE whatsoever. Get that nonsense out of your mind, it's been never on anyone's agenda after 2008.
NATO council in Brussels, juin 2021
We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process; we reaffirm all elements of that decision, as well as subsequent decisions, including that each partner will be judged on its own merits. We stand firm in our support for Ukraine’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course free from outside interference. The Annual National Programmes under the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) remain the mechanism by which Ukraine takes forward the reforms pertaining to its aspiration for NATO membership. Ukraine should make full use of all instruments available under the NUC to reach its objective of implementing NATO principles and standards.
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NimoStar
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posted September 29, 2023 11:15 AM |
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Well, now its more likely that there is no chances whatsoever since the failed "counteroffensive" has put into perspective that Ukraine will never defeat Russia no matter how much money and guns is put in the hands of corrupt ukranian oligarchs or its prominent neo-nazi elements.
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JollyJoker
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posted September 29, 2023 12:01 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
So there wasn't ANY danger of Ukraine joining NATO. NONE whatsoever. Get that nonsense out of your mind, it's been never on anyone's agenda after 2008.
NATO council in Brussels, juin 2021
We reiterate the decision made at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine will become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process; we reaffirm all elements of that decision, as well as subsequent decisions, including that each partner will be judged on its own merits. We stand firm in our support for Ukraine’s right to decide its own future and foreign policy course free from outside interference. The Annual National Programmes under the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) remain the mechanism by which Ukraine takes forward the reforms pertaining to its aspiration for NATO membership. Ukraine should make full use of all instruments available under the NUC to reach its objective of implementing NATO principles and standards.
That's just words. This article summarizes the situation. The situation in Bucharest 2008 and later in December was that Georgia and Ukraine were NOT invited to MAP. European members were against that. To get a result that everyone could live with they phrased something about supporting Ukraine's (and Georgia's) ongoing process to qualify with the aim to invite them when that would be the case.
With the ongoing war since 2014 Ukraine couldn't enter NATO under any circumstances as long as the conflic existed.
Putin himself was in Bucharest in 2008 and expressed his satisfaction that the two countries had not been invited.
The situation was stable, no matter what NATO phrased at the tail end of their text.
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