|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
posted September 29, 2023 01:09 PM |
|
|
I never understood the common Putinist's take about NATO anyway. Ukraine wants to join NATO? And?
What, Ukraine is not ALLOWED? By who? Putin? is Ukraine your puppet state? Are you still going on with the ridiculous notion of "control zones"?
How about making Ukraine WANT to join your Russian-Belarussian union state instead of invading and commiting a million atrocities against civilians?
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted September 29, 2023 02:37 PM |
|
|
Doomforge said:
I never understood the common Putinist's take about NATO anyway. Ukraine wants to join NATO? And?
It's actually an extremely complex issue. I'm working on a post but it will take some time as I need to gather all relative files and sources from the last 40 years or so and put them into context.
____________
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 29, 2023 07:04 PM |
|
|
I appreciate that.
However, Ukraine is a sovereign country and can do whatever it wants.
It does not need consent from Vladimir, nor his approval.
"Control zones" are a 1980s thing. Putin is living in the past, enamoured by the shadow of the mighty Soviet Union.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted September 29, 2023 07:57 PM |
|
|
|
Plus, Sweden and Finland.
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted September 29, 2023 08:34 PM |
|
|
Galaad said:
It's actually an extremely complex issue.
Don't waste your time, there are no ears to hear.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted September 29, 2023 09:57 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
Don't waste your time, there are no ears to hear.
Great. Nobody falls for Putinist crap anymore.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 01, 2023 07:02 AM |
|
|
Actually I never listened to any of the Russian medias or Putin speeches, except what is often quoted in the mainstream, usually to portray Putin as the bad guy. Let's recall that EU prohibited and closed all Russian financed medias abroad, a total illegal move as, at least in France, such medias never faced any condemnation or even suspected to relay "propaganda" and disinformation. When democracy leads to what you rebuke to the other side, better you start questioning and stop following duck-like.
My data comes, ironically, from some of the American, British and French elite, like John Mearsheimer, jeffrey Sachs, Geoffrey Roberts, Richard Wolff, as well as from exiled Russian independent media outlets, as Mediazona and Medusa. And many others, there are plenty.
Amnesty International also delivered a detailed dossier about how Ukrainian army uses civilians houses, schools and hospitals as shields and cache for ammo and artillery - that's not to say there are no war crimes, from both sides btw, but puts into a different perspective the lying narrative about Russian targeting on purpose the population. They don't.
Then from first hand statistics, like EU actual and 2024 predicted growth, compared to Russia, data about worldwide energy movements, profit and speculation, especially about who gets the best deal in the end. Ultimately, from common sense observations, as the three main decisive factors predicting the outcome and the casualties in any conflict : troops moral, fire power and air superiority. As well as mobilization strategy in the timeline, both sides.
Conclusion is hardly refutable when you connect the dots, we made the stupidest ever move, declaring war on Russia by using Ukraine as a proxy. And that, without EU/US meddling in and exhorting Zelensky to consider only one option - military conflict, this war could have ended by march 2022, then remain in history books as an irrelevant skirmish. It was on the table.
So, either one starts thinking by himself or keeps crawling while covering his ears. But you know who always follows the wind, and that's a dead leaf.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 01, 2023 09:26 AM |
|
|
That's a completely false narrative. Russia is at war with Ukraine since 2014 and in 2022 they invaded Ukraine with the intention of a Blitzkrieg raid to "denazify" the country, kill or imprison the government and install a puppet regime.
And while everyone thought Russia would finish it in three weeks, they didn't because Ukraine was tougher than it looked, even without help. Only then, after it became clear that Russia was unable to do what they wanted to, did Ukraine get military aid from the West - which wasn't that effective, since they had no training; what helped a lot more was the stuff they captured from Russians because they had the same equipment.
For the rest, you know the US have a law that says, everything that happens as a direct consequence of an illegal action, is on the criminal. If a guy tries to rob a gas station at gun point, the clerk is resisting and in the insuing shootout the clerk shoots a bystander, it's on the robber. Because, see, when you ar attacked, you have the right to resist and fight back. It's called self-defense.
There is no excuse for Putin's misguided attack - if he had known that his strategists are idiots he'd never invaded in the first place, but now Russia must not lose face. Russia cannot declare this thing a lost cause and end it, because pride and super power and Russia doesn't lose. THAT is the actual problem-
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted October 03, 2023 09:58 PM |
|
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 01:09 AM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
Actually I never listened to any of the Russian medias or Putin speeches, except what is often quoted in the mainstream, usually to portray Putin as the bad guy.
There is absolutely no need to "portray" Putin in whatever way. All you have to do is actually listen to him speak - you don't need any middle man. In fact, you don't want a middle man in the first place - you can simply check the very source, with noone to "portray" Putin in any way.
So perhaps you should listen to Putin speeches. Or you can choose to be willingly ignorant. However, in that case, it would be wise to stop making a cause for him.
Salamandre said:
Let's recall that EU prohibited and closed all Russian financed medias abroad, a total illegal move
BOO HOO, how about "don't invade other countries"? None of this would happen at all. Oh, wait, was your invasion legal perhaps?
This oddly seems like Breivik complaining that he doesn't have new video games in his cell. How inhuman. Let's forget the couple dozen kids he murdered. Poor dude, right?
Salamandre said:
When democracy leads to what you rebuke to the other side, better you start questioning and stop following duck-like.
When the other side spews propaganda, lies and supports war, there's nothing of value lost. Quite literally.
This is a typical cause of "I oppose the current thing". All you need now is to add some chemtrails, 5G and murder-vaccines to the list and you'll get the free-thinker diplomma right away. The university of youtube self-education would be proud.
You people got it all wrong. Freedom of speech/opinion does NOT equal the right to lie, spew totalitarian propaganda and/or anti-humanitarian values. Laws exist for a reason.
Salamandre said:
Amnesty International also delivered a detailed dossier about how Ukrainian army uses civilians houses, schools and hospitals as shields and cache for ammo and artillery - that's not to say there are no war crimes, from both sides btw, but puts into a different perspective the lying narrative about Russian targeting on purpose the population. They don't.
Whataboutism again. Putin invaded a soverign country and started a war. Your attempt here is to blame the defenders for not fighting, umm, what, HONORABLY against invaders coming in superior numbers to steal, rape and murder? Nobody invited them there. Go back to Russia, comrades. Nobody asked for this.
Salamandre said:
Conclusion is hardly refutable when you connect the dots, we made the stupidest ever move, declaring war on Russia by using Ukraine as a proxy. And that, without EU/US meddling in and exhorting Zelensky to consider only one option - military conflict, this war could have ended by march 2022, then remain in history books as an irrelevant skirmish. It was on the table.
Let me repeat myself.
NOBODY forced Putin's hand. He is the only person to be blamed for the decision to start a war.
Whatever your ideas will be here - nazis, proxies, NATO entering, coups, illegal regimes - this is a matter of a sovereign country, not some puppet state of Russians. Ukraine can do whatever it wants. There is absolutely no need for an army of retards to come and bring "peace" to a sovereign country. Ukrainians can deal with Ukrainian matters themselves, without putinists murdering their children, oh sorry, DENAZIFYING.
Either way - you can end the war right away by going back to Russia. Nobody asked for your help. The war remains a war because Putin refuses to withdraw, even though he has accomplished absolutely nothing and his army just piles on atrocities upon atrocities for absolutely no reason or benefit to anyone. Even if we look by what has been achieved - well, it's actually nothing. Zelensky is still the head of the state, and Kiev is independent. What the hell are you even doing there right now? What is occupying the 5% of Ukraine that you have managed to capture going to accomplish, exactly?
How about Denazifying Kim's Northern Korea? What, aren't there enough reports of hunger and terror upon civilians there? What, does the modern take on Jedi Knights aka "Russian army" need some toilet seats to steal, or otherwise it's not worth the "denazification" ?
Salamandre said:
So, either one starts thinking by himself or keeps crawling while covering his ears. But you know who always follows the wind, and that's a dead leaf.
You are not "thinking by yourself" or whatever you think you are doing here. You are just supporting a disgusting, unnecessary war, conjuring up terrible excuses and repeating propaganda, whether you were fed one or just happened to agree with it without realizing.
I have never been more disappointed with a HC member, to be honest. I did like and respect you, man, for years. But this... what the hell? Are you serious? There is absolutely no cause that can be made for an actual INVASION. Sanctions, politics, sure. Releasing some young idiots with AKs to murder civilians? What the hell is THAT going to accomplish? Who are you murdering? Nazis? How do you tell them apart when you carpet-bomb cities with BM-21s, TOS-1s or Shahed-129 drones? Does the holy-stalin-in-commie-heaven tell them apart and you're immediately excused for firing dumb munitions into clusters of civilians?
I am literally disgusted by you here. Sorry.
As for the war, I really hope that Ukrainians will somehow manage to win, to embarass the Russian imperialism forever, even though it remains extremely unlikely with the disproportion in army strength. Perhaps Russian Federation will then finally fall and cease to exist, much like Nazi Germany or Soviet Union before it, and we can finally start building a peaceful and purposeful Eurasia, without some deluded idiots playing gods using a bunch of drunken morons in T-72s. Nobody needs that crap anymore. It should rest in the history's garbage bin forever.
Germans did it. They went from a totalitarian regime to a peaceful, prospering country that works well with neighbors rather than enforcing putinism via conscripted meat en masse. You can do it to, Russians. At least that's what I hope for.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 03:56 AM |
|
|
I never got why the ultimate argument from people with low reasoning skills or getting too emotional to make any sense, always boils down to ridiculous perorations like "I don't like what you say, you are disgusting, you lost my respect, blah blah".
We are not friends, I don't know you, you don't know me, your moral sermons are irrelevant. We are facing possible world war, mass destruction, and you act like a cuckolded wife.
Not only you didn't open any of the links I provided - where at least you can see arguments are solid, either you agree or not -, but you also put words in my mouth, like me "supporting the war" so you could ***** about me being the bad guy here.
You should apply for US or Canada elite universities, then proclaim your own safe space where reality has no say. I see a bright future there.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 07:54 AM |
|
|
|
Doomforge is completely right.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 09:40 AM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
I never got why the ultimate argument from people with low reasoning skills or getting too emotional to make any sense, always boils down to ridiculous perorations like "I don't like what you say, you are disgusting, you lost my respect, blah blah".
This is not an argument at all. This is a personal remark, because this is, frankly, a community (if you haven't noticed) and we're not automatons exchanging arguments. We also can like or dislike one another and there is nothing wrong to mention this, especially in a community this old, where most remaining members actually know each other for over a decade.
It's always sad to see someone's true colors after many years.
Salamandre said:
Not only you didn't open any of the links I provided - where at least you can see arguments are solid, either you agree or not -, but you also put words in my mouth, like me "supporting the war" so you could ***** about me being the bad guy here.
That's because this doesn't matter. They may be valid reasons for Russians fearing for their position, safety or future, and I'm sure Galaad will post a nice and informative post on this eventually - but Russians did the unthinkable: they invaded another European country, after all we've been through as humanity, especially after World War II. That's basically it. End of story. Invasion doesn't invalidate their arguments, but invasion itself is wrong on every possible level and those arguments cannot support it.
Could we agree that Russians have valid geopolitical fears? Absolutely. Could we agree that they HAD TO invade? Absolutely not. Nobody forced their hand. I am not going to participate in victim blaming.
Salamandre said:
You should apply for US or Canada elite universities, then proclaim your own safe space where reality has no say. I see a bright future there.
Reality is that Russians invaded a sovereign country. It's you who refuses to face this simple reality, not me.
If it was Russia who was attacked, I would support Russia in every way, even if their political system isn't something I consider valuable. However, this is a Russian matter. Nobody else has a say in this.
There is no argument to support starting an actual war. You're wasting your time.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 12:02 PM |
|
|
I am not supporting this war, you get it wrong. I say it's 90% our fault and if people die today is because the way of reasoning you preach : must wipe out Russia so we can live in peace. Guess what, Russians got it and won't let it happen. No matter the cost, and they have the backbone for that, we don't.
Minsk deliberate failure (verbally revealed by both Merkel and Hollande - all they had in mind was Ukraine having the time to militarize), worldwide indifference for Russians being bombarded and killed in Donbas 8 years long, NATO expansion up to Russian borders despite word being given it won't, USA 2014 political coup to place a pro EU puppet in Ukraine - as revealed by Wikileaks - USA further attempts to stir a conflict, by evacuating all Putin proposals and arming Ukraine for 8 years, UK prime minister sabotaging peace negotiations in march 2022, billions of dollars in high tech weapons which lead to escalation and so on.
Sovereignty means nothing. One super power decides who is sovereign and who isn't. Look at world map and make a list of countries under sanctions, for no other reasons than ideological. And who tramples their "sovereignty".
You just have no idea what's going on, all you do is pilling up empty slogans. You're right on one thing however, I am obviously wasting my time to recall the timeline, there are no ears to hear.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 08:48 PM |
|
Edited by Ghost at 20:54, 04 Oct 2023.
|
Salamandre said:
I am not supporting this war, you get it wrong. I say it's 90% our fault
Thanks! I said "don't defend Russia", because I was unclear from you. But I agree with you, I tried to explain that USA started it. Do you remember the USA urged the EU to take Ukraine in 2 or 3 times, when EU asked Ukraine, and then USA asked NATO. All thing went to ruin/spoil.
@Doomforge
I agree that Russian attack is a wrong completely. Russia doesn't decide the affairs of Ukraine. Therefore Putin and his party must be removed. If Russian majority is supporting to Putin, they must be removed too. Do you know Kasparov? Today Kasparov accepted weapons against Putin and his party. Civil war! Let's see then.
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 09:15 PM |
|
Edited by Galaad at 21:16, 04 Oct 2023.
|
Doomforge said:
I'm sure Galaad will post a nice and informative post on this eventually
Still working on it. A lot to process ans also very busy IRL but it will come. I agree that even with all the tensions that attack was unthinkable, moreover that Russians and Ukrainians are brothers. Russian ministers were spending their holidays in Kiev...
____________
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted October 04, 2023 10:00 PM |
|
|
Salamandre said:
I say it's 90% our fault
I say it's 100% Putin's fault
Salamandre said:
and if people die today is because the way of reasoning you preach : must wipe out Russia so we can live in peace.
Yeah, that's why we attacked Russians and started a war
oh wait
People die today because Putin refuses to withdraw from his failed invasion
Salamandre said:
Guess what, Russians got it and won't let it happen. No matter the cost, and they have the backbone for that, we don't.
Nobody attacked Russia, argument invalid
Salamandre said:
Minsk deliberate failure (verbally revealed by both Merkel and Hollande - all they had in mind was Ukraine having the time to militarize), worldwide indifference for Russians being bombarded and killed in Donbas 8 years long, NATO expansion up to Russian borders despite word being given it won't, USA 2014 political coup to place a pro EU puppet in Ukraine - as revealed by Wikileaks - USA further attempts to stir a conflict, by evacuating all Putin proposals and arming Ukraine for 8 years, UK prime minister sabotaging peace negotiations in march 2022, billions of dollars in high tech weapons which lead to escalation and so on.
Would be a nice argument for various geopolitical actions but has 0% relevancy to actual invasion
Salamandre said:
Sovereignty means nothing.
wat
Sovereignty means nothing... to Putin perhaps. Thanks for claryfying you agree with him.
Ok, that's enough BS for me, have a nice day.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted October 05, 2023 10:52 AM |
|
|
Galaad said:
that attack was unthinkable
So unthinkable that the US has sent more than 46 billion in security and weapons assistance to Ukraine, between 2014 and 2021. While Ukraine not being in NATO or any other military alliance.
Sounds close to Taiwan situation, where a possibility of a Chinese attack is growing, wonder why.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
|
|
posted October 05, 2023 11:07 AM |
|
|
Yes, even so I was in shock Putin attacked.
____________
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted October 05, 2023 11:59 AM |
|
|
|
No. Russia mustn't win the war! We destroy Russia. What is doctrine. Amen!
|
| |
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
