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| Thread: Would level 7 Creature Specialists be OP? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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NimoStar
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Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 01, 2022 01:49 AM |
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Poll Question:
Would level 7 Creature Specialists be OP?
We have specialists for creature levels 1-6 (though some are missing, like Medusas, and others are weird, like Conflux ones)
Someting that remains consistent, though, is that there is no single regular creature specialist in any level 7+ creature.
We have spoken a lot bout Galthran and his OP skeleton ability due to the many skeleton sources. But we haven't talked about the lack of level 7 specialists openly much if at all.
What would happen if they ould be common heroes?
Let's imagine a Green/Gold dragon specialist (the level 7 creature with highest ATK and DEF)... would they be better than level 5 or 6 specialists?
For tis let's imagine they follow the common pattern: Only upgrade stats after hero level 7. Always give +1 speed. And only double stats after 140 levels after hero level 7 (it's 120 after hero level 6 for level 6 specialists)
So
* +1 speed
* +0.71% ATK and DEF each level after level 7
I think they may be stronger in the late game compared to other specialists. After all, level 7 creatures not only have the highest stats but also produce the highst weekly HP. Their advantege in this regard is significant.
But except the +1 speed, which some creatures (Gold Dragns included) really do not need, we are looking at heroes with a fairly useless specialty into very late into the game.
Generally, as no regular creature specialist is OP, even the best ones generally (except Galthran), I don't think level 7 ones would hav unbalanced the game. Even specialty vampires is often not good enough and that's probably the best one after skeletons.
But what do you think?
Future question: Would gremlin, centaur, pixie, and Air Elemental or Medusa specialty unbalance the game? (to me, this is oviously not true for Medusas and Centaurs)
The lvl 7 question remain mostly unexplored tho. Is there any modds that adds them?
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted June 01, 2022 05:02 AM |
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The problem is lvl7 creatures are OP to begin with. 
And static does not scale well (get it?)
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
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posted June 01, 2022 08:15 AM |
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I'm just gonna leave these two here:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45393
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=45415
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NimoStar
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Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 02, 2022 05:45 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 05:45, 02 Jun 2022.
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That lacks a poll and mathematical approach unlike my blessed thread 
Vote, you heathen!
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
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posted June 02, 2022 07:29 AM |
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LOL
I can't vote though, you miss the 3rd option:
Some level 7 specialists would be okay. (Archangel would not!)
I think Behemoth and Hydra would be the most suited, since they does'nt change top speed of towns. They also fit might factions very well.
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fanofheroes
Famous Hero
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posted June 02, 2022 03:49 PM |
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Perhaps there could be a way so that such a specialty would not be over balanced? I.E. Creatures specialties level 1-4 would get a per level bonus each level after their respective level number (as it is currently). Levels 5,6 would get a per level bonus every 2nd level attained after each level. Level 7 units would get a per level bonus every 3rd level attained after the 7th level.
This way level 7 creatures would get a bonus, just not at a quicker rate than smaller level units.
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NimoStar
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Legendary Hero
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posted June 04, 2022 02:52 AM |
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there is already a similar mechanism
level 1 double stats every 20 levels
level 2 double stats over 40 levels
level 3 double stats over 60 levels
level 4 double stats over 80 levels
level 5 double stats over 100 levels
level 6 double stats over 120 levels
Level 7 would thus logically double them every 140 levels
Angel bonus would be similar to level 1 units.
On the other hand, I agree that there is a bigger jump from level 6 to 7 than in perhaps any other (other than 1 to 2, lvl 1 creatures in H3 are considered so bad in general that you get them for free at dwellings, and thus also their higher specialty bonus)
The formula could be recalculated, but you would ned a better equation than your proposal and make it apply to all levels progresively
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fanofheroes
Famous Hero
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posted June 04, 2022 04:19 AM |
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It's so hard to get beyond level 60 unless there are a bunch of learning trees. You'll need a learning tree forest to get to level 140 no?
NimoStar said:
there is already a similar mechanism
level 1 double stats every 20 levels
level 2 double stats over 40 levels
level 3 double stats over 60 levels
level 4 double stats over 80 levels
level 5 double stats over 100 levels
level 6 double stats over 120 levels
Level 7 would thus logically double them every 140 levels
Angel bonus would be similar to level 1 units.
On the other hand, I agree that there is a bigger jump from level 6 to 7 than in perhaps any other (other than 1 to 2, lvl 1 creatures in H3 are considered so bad in general that you get them for free at dwellings, and thus also their higher specialty bonus)
The formula could be recalculated, but you would ned a better equation than your proposal and make it apply to all levels progresively
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NimoStar
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Legendary Hero
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posted June 04, 2022 06:22 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 06:43, 04 Jun 2022.
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Yes, in a normal game you will never double ATK and DEF of level 7 theoretically... neither any level higher than perhaps 2, actually
But level 7 stats are high enough that they still get better bonuses than most previous levels (except as mentioned Lvl1).
Best Level 6, Dread Knight, has 18 ATK and DEF
Highest stats level 7, Gold Dragon, has 27 ATK and DEF
thus much higher % bonus than the 20+1 levels they "lose" on doubling them on 147 compared to 126.
But if you compare Chaos Hydra, who only has 18 ATK and 20 DEF, no magic defense and is also much slower, then it's not so clear. You'd have to make good use of the hydra ability to make it count.
To note, both produce only 20 more weekly HP than Dread Knights (Dread 2x120, Chaos Hydra and Gold Dragon 1x250), but this is again the strongest level 6 unit. As a weaker comparison, Wyvern Monarchs only have 70x2 weekly base HP, and Manticores 2x80.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 04, 2022 07:35 AM |
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Nimo Gold Dragons are not the strongest level 7.
Have you forgotten about Archangels?, they have 30 att and 30 def!
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 04, 2022 10:27 AM |
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Hmm, quite interesting topic actually.
It's kinda surprising that the possibility of adding lvl 7 creature specialists as part of "normal hero roster" wasn't included in the original game, as certain towns wouldn't really even benefit much from them - Hydra specialty would probably be the least useful creature specialties on Fortress, for example.
Also, the concrete level up process wouldn't really allow most heroes get out of hand, as I think that something like level 30 is pretty much max level in a normal kind of map, so level 7 heroes would receive a maxium of 4 upgrades.
Generally speaking, the lower level creature specialists are usually better heroes, since they're not just getting the scaling bonus, but they would get a better early game stack as well. In Homm3, if you can get the snowball rolling early on, you're likely going to outphase opponents in the late game as well, even if their build would seem to be more suitable for the late game. So in that sense, the level 7 specialists wouldn't be OP for sure, as their scaling would kick in quite late in the game, and it's likely that the speed bonus wouldn't have much impact when fighting against neutral monsters. In hero vs hero scenario, the +1 speed would likely be at it's best, thou.
It should also be included that if such heroes would exist, their choices of secondary skills would matter a lot. And in a sense, if they would be designed with NWC logic, repeating skills among certain class would probably be mostly banned. (for example, I wouldn't see Angel specialist having Leadership + Offence)
If you would go creature by creature, it would probably go something like this:
Angel specialist - Quick look at the Knights, and I don't really see that the second skill would be among the most desirable ones. The specialty itself would be the strongest among other lvl 7 specialist, thanks to Griffin Conservatories and the insane stats that Archangels do have. However, Knights are probably the least powerful might class, so that would cripple the specialist down quite a bit. Would be a hero with potential, but would probably see competitive (main) use only in rare occasions.
Green Dragon specialist - Specialty-wise, this would probably be pretty down in the list. The dragons would have pretty good scaling, but the Rampart playstyle doesn't really benefit from going early dragons, and the dwelling is pretty nasty for the early rampart army to take. So overall, the "kick" of having a powerful level 7 army would come to play even later than usual. If you would give this hero Offence thou, he would be among the better Rangers, and would somewhat compare to Ivor, but I think Ivor would still be the better of the two in most cases.
Giant specialist - Well, in SoD probably wouldn't be very good, Alchemists aren't very good heroes, and Tower is expensive and there aren't additional ways of getting more Giants. In Hota would be much better, but in competitive wouldn't be used as main I think.
Devil specialist (normal scaling) - Well, I think the problem here would be the Inferno itself. Demoniacs are a fine hero class, but I'm not sure what this guy should have in order to revolutionize the Inferno gameplay.
Bone dragon specialist - I don't see how this would be any good really, the stats just aren't there and Bone/Ghost Dragons mostly rely on their utility anyway.
Red Dragon specialist - Certainly one of the better ones in this bunch. Dungeon can get the Dragon dwellings and milk some more from their Portal. The dragons have great stats, and are immune to magic, so the scaling would be most suited here. Overlords are also probably the best might class in the game. In competitive would likely be used as a main in templates, where the best heroes are banned.
Behemot specialist (with normal scaling) - Well, here the +1 speed would likely be at it's best. Behemots are big and slow creatures, so they could benefit from the speed in neutral battles. The ATT/DEF scaling wouldn't be anything too impressive, thou. If this guy would have Armorer alongside Offence (which it easily could, looking at Barbarians) then he would likely be a top tier might hero, but the specialty wouldn't really affect that rating.
Hydra specialist - Yeah, the specialty here isn't really anything to tell home about. Hyrdas are pretty underwhelming, and this hero wouldn't change that. However, if you look at the "available" secondary skills, Tactics seems to be missing from the Beastmaster roster. If this hero would have Armorer + Tactics, he would probably be something like a B-tier might hero, which would likely see play on
competitive templates where the best heroes would be banned.
Firebird specialist - I think this one would be the least likely to exist in the original game given how the Planeswalker heroes as masters of their own elementals. If such hero would exists thou, he would have the static stat boost, which wouldn't scale. And given how the boosts seem to become better with higher level creatures, it's likely that this hero could have been even the top dog among the planeswalkers. It's really the secondary skills that make or break this hero.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 04, 2022 12:39 PM |
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Good points Hourglass.
Two things though:
1) Necropolis are able to convert dragons, hydras and sea serpents into Bone Dragons, which might raise a questionmark whether this specialty would actually be balanced. (Kinda like Galthran.)
2) Planeswalkers static specialties suck and should never have been a thing.
A potential Firebird specialist should also not have a static specialty.
As for the heroes skills the first skill should of course follow the class (if it has any) and the second I think should be an average skill, not too good and not too bad. And no duplicated skills from other heroes of that class, that is boring. (Looking at you Thunar and Erdamon.)
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 04, 2022 01:57 PM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
1) Necropolis are able to convert dragons, hydras and sea serpents into Bone Dragons, which might raise a questionmark whether this specialty would actually be balanced. (Kinda like Galthran.)
Well, if we're expecting the max level to be somewhere around level 30, the Ghost dragons wouldn't still get much help from the specialist. I mean, they get something like +4/+4 at level 28, which isn't really impressive, when we're comparing the final stats to for other level 7 creatures. If you have a massive army of Ghost Dragons, you're basically already OP. I would gladly change the minor stat boost for somehow better early game skill/special.
Phoenix4ever said:
2) Planeswalkers static specialties suck and should never have been a thing.
A potential Firebird specialist should also not have a static specialty.
I remember you not liking the static specialists, which is pretty easy to understand - it doesn't feel like a real special. I think it was also a mistake to not give the creatures the normal +1 speed. Water elemental specialty (+2 attack) is a joke.
However, for gameplay purposes, the static buff would probably be better in most cases, as long as we're not receiving just couple of points of ATT and DEF. For example, the Sprite scaling would be pretty bad, level 20 specialist would still only give +2/+2.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 04, 2022 03:48 PM |
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Yeah maybe a bone dragon specialist would'nt be that OP. It's definitely one of the weakest level 7 units. (Still aging can be pretty scary, when it hits.)
Well there is currently no pixie specialist either, but yeah it would be pretty bad because of pixies low stats. That's what makes the whole creature specialty thing complicated, because it depends on creatures attack and defense...
Well I abandoned static creature specialties a long time ago that's for sure. 
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 04, 2022 08:46 PM |
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If we would, we could already have behemoth, red dragon and devil specialists in the game.
We just need to change Kilgor, Mutare and Xerons specialty to a normal dynamic creature specialty. (Mutare also red dragons instead of all dragons.)
Kilgor starts with Advanced Offense like Crag Hack though, he might need Basic Offense and a second skill to make him a bit more interesting...
I still would like to know if it's possible to change hero specialty icons in HotA, I don't think it is...
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NimoStar
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posted June 05, 2022 10:16 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:22, 05 Jun 2022.
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Quote:
Yeah maybe a bone dragon specialist would'nt be that OP.
Wrong, Bone Dragn specialist would actually be the most OP of all, and the reason is actually the same as why Skeleton specialist is OP
Sure, normal growth strenght and abilities of skeleton dragons are generally unimpressive...
Necropolist can turn Red, Green, Black, Gold, Hydra, Chaos Hydra (and haspids in hota) into Bone Dragons.
The obvious choice is to recruit any of tem unupgraded, turn and then upgrade to ghost.
Thus you can have a Bone Dragon death stack with external level 7 dwellings of several types, or towns from other factions. Something which no other level 7 can accomplish.
HotA additionally adds towers with dragn rewards as creature benks, isn't that correct? So more potential bone dragons (besides haspids)
Thus, much like Gathran due to the skeleton conditions is the only OP level 1 specialist (and potentially the non existing Gremlin specialist would be, but just because of the starting gremlins), probably the Bone Dragon specialist would be the only eventually OP level 7 specialist...
However even in this case I believe it would be less unbalancing. 1- No necromancy for more (+free) bone dragons. 2- +1 speed is less important for already fast units 3- Has to be level 7 to have any ATK and DEF effect. 4- You take more time to gain/accumulate bone dragons and game may be over before you have many. 5- No bullsnow of "all your hero stacks starts as full strnght stacks of skeletons/gremlins" etc.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 05, 2022 11:40 PM |
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Well I did already post this earlier:
"Necropolis are able to convert dragons, hydras and sea serpents into Bone Dragons, which might raise a questionmark whether this specialty would actually be balanced. (Kinda like Galthran.)"
But Hourglass seemed to downplay my concerns.
Not sure a bone dragon specialist would be as broken as Galthran though.
There are no dragons as rewards, in HotA, btw.
I do again have to point out that all level 7 specialists, except behemoth and hydra, would change top speed of their faction. This might not seem important in relation to movement, but remember it also affects initiative of who gets to act first in combat. It's probably only a minor thing though.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 06, 2022 12:43 AM |
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Phoenix4ever said:
There are no dragons as rewards, in HotA, btw.
There are Pirate Caverns where you fight against Pirates, and they do hand out Sea Serpents, but they not part of the "normal template objects", making them rare to come by. Likely the reason you did not remember them.
Phoenix4ever said:
I do again have to point out that all level 7 specialists, except behemoth and hydra, would change top speed of their faction. This might not seem important in relation to movement, but remember it also affects initiative of who gets to act first in combat. It's probably only a minor thing though.
It's actually a good point. In competitive it could play a role in some mirror matches/templates. And this would in fact further push the Angel specialist. Interestingly, it could probably be most appealing for non-castle players especially (which happen to find multiple Griffin conservatories). The Castle players can always just upgrade their angels, kinda solving their initiate problems once and for all. I mean, it's still a minor thing, but +1 speed can easily lead into the difference between winning and losing the battle.
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 06, 2022 07:37 AM |
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Oh right, Pirate Caverns, they are pretty rare though.
Yeah an angel specialist might also be OP, it would be the level 7 that gets the best bonusses as well.
So it goes something like this:
Behemoth and hydra: Quite alright.
Green Dragon, red Dragon, giant, devil, firebird and sea serpent: Might be okay.
Angel and bone dragon: Questionable.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 06, 2022 04:33 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Future question: Would gremlin, centaur, pixie, and Air Elemental or Medusa specialty unbalance the game?
Gremlin specialist - Would pretty much revolutionize the Tower gameplay. Currently speaking, Tower has multiple options for their starting hero, as none of the heroes clearly stand out for the purpose. If Gremlin specialist would be introduced, then the gameplay style would be much more straightforward than it is now. It really wouldn't matter what secondary skills or starting spell such hero would have, there wouldn't be much of a reason for picking anyone else, if you're planning to play competitive or otherwise optimized style. Hard to say if it truly would be OP, but it would most certainly increase the Tower's win%.
Centaur specialist - Another very strong hero. Just like the Gremlin specialist, this would likely shake the game somehow. If you give this guy Offence, then in Hota you would always start with this as Rampart, and in SoD it would be probably drop out at least Ivor, probably Kyrre too in some scenarios. If the hero would get at least decent skills, it would probably be a hero in competitive that you start and finish the game, just like with Shakti and Galthran, at least in Hota.
Pixie specialist - Just like with the Firebirds, it would make most sense that the specialty does not scale. If we would get pretty good stats immediately, then there's a chance such hero would play like Hota's Cassiopeia, which is one the better Captains. It really depends how good the secondary skills would be. And this would be miles better in SoD than Hota, because there isn't a way to upgrade the Pixies during day 1 in Hota. Wouldn't chance that much for Conflux thou as the two previous heroes would do to their own factions, as you would still start with Luna as Conflux.
Air elemental specialist - Well, if Monere and Pasis would keep their current stacks, (two stacks of elementals) then the third stack wouldn't really change things all that much. Since Water elemental specialists have so fragile bonus, it's very likely that the bonus given to Air elemental specialist wouldn't be very good either. Would be a top tier Planeswalker, but probably be bit worse than Monere, who has pretty stacked skills.
Medusa specialist - Overlords are likely the best might class in the game, so it's likely that if a hero like this would exist, it couldn't be very bad. Specialty-wise, this would easily be the least effective among these specialists we're missing now. Depends a lot from the secondary skills, but I think this would probably be among the least useful Overlords.
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