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| Thread: Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 23, 2022 05:00 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 05:04, 23 Jun 2022.
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Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill
The title says it all: Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill
Ok, here is my own try, err...
How about a game where every neutral creature stack has its own Neutral Hero?
And the Neutral Hero comes with random spells according to the monster level... (just level 1 spells for level 1 monsters, 10 spell points; up to level 2 spells for level 2 monsters, 20 spell points, and so on)
This way the EE hero could learn spells every time he fights 
(something like this would be doable in H4 maps where there are neutral heroes, too bad no Eagle Eye there)
All towns can get Mage Guild to max level, but the selection of spells from each town type is more limited compared to the total (there are more banned spells than allowed spells), thus making you more realiant on learning from neutrals.
Additional mechanic:
The way to get the location of the Grail is to learn all spells. No obelisks required. Each spell is a part of the "Puzzle".
12x12 puzzle = 144 spells, almost the same as in my H4 Ultimate mod (which has 176).
Pretty sure this would make Eagle Eye the most valuable skill. Most importantly, it would be much more fun.
Rules of the contest:
- Eagle Eye mechanics must remain as they are in H3.
-- That means "Eagle Eye learns spells cast in battle", nothing more.
-- If you create your "new eagle eye" that does more stuff or different stuff, then you are not creating a different game scenario, just a different eagle eye, that doesn't count.
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Gandalf196
Disgraceful
Supreme Hero
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posted June 23, 2022 06:04 AM |
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This is a prime example of a constructive post, the kind that's been missing in these forums for some time. Great idea, Nimo, very clever solution to the conundrum. I also believe that the problem with the useless skills (namely the dreadful trio, Eagle Eye, Learning and Scholar) has more to do with the game itself - the fact that it is simplistic and poorly designed at the most fundamental level -, than to the skills' numbers.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted June 23, 2022 07:32 AM |
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Gandalf196 said:
- the fact that it is simplistic and poorly designed at the most fundamental level -
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted June 23, 2022 11:05 AM |
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One thing I saw in WoG and I think it's great is: check the spells you can still learn, if there are no more spells to learn the skill vanishes and the slot is now free. That would work even for EE specialists, cause they would get a chance to unlearn the skill before others.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted June 23, 2022 03:58 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
if there are no more spells to learn the skill vanishes and the slot is now free. That would work even for EE specialists, cause they would get a chance to unlearn the skill before others.
intelligent EE
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I have a book and I had been in a hospital. -Unknown
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted June 23, 2022 05:22 PM |
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That would certainly be an improvement or just give us Market of Time, so we can remove skills we don't want.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 23, 2022 05:51 PM |
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Eagle Eye would be the most valuable skill if
a) there were no mage guilds or map locations where to learn spells from;
b) all/most creatures could cast (a) spell(s)/had an active spell-casting ability like, say, Mages in HoMM 4.
In this case heroes would pick up spells exclusively via the Eagle Eye skill and would therefore be limited without it to the casting of their starting spell(s), if they had any.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 23, 2022 05:51 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 17:52, 23 Jun 2022.
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I agree with the original post though H5 was smart enough to include spells cast from units, including those of your own faction, at 100% success rate. But if neutral heroes have random spells, that makes it a lot more reliable. Better yet, that would allow neutral units to also be blessed with might bonuses and not just spell support.
When you mentioned redesigning homm around eagle eye, I remembered the H2 mechanic of garrison support heroes. And H6 had neutral forts that when captured, gave control over the nearby dwellings/mines. A combination would have been effective, though I do not particularly care about the control point mechanics.
Another possibility is a raiding building/mechanic. We've seen how caravans can send army from everywhere towards your own towns. Something like that but they attack your opponent's town with a newly spawned hero(mercenary?) whose sole mission is to take that town and is not directly controlled on the adventure map. Though, that would not feed the main hero with spells as directly as fighting a hero you meet in exploration.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 23, 2022 09:29 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 21:41, 23 Jun 2022.
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bloodsucker said:
One thing I saw in WoG and I think it's great is: check the spells you can still learn, if there are no more spells to learn the skill vanishes and the slot is now free. That would work even for EE specialists, cause they would get a chance to unlearn the skill before others.
I don't think that really compensates specialty, since you still would be left with an useless bonus compared with Sorcery, Resistance or Creature specialists that keep increasing.
Tough, i do agree that unlearning skills (like Market of Time) should be a thing (maybe for some cost, of course).
In my scheme EE specialist would be fastest way to grail, thus compensating that way.
Quote:
When you mentioned redesigning homm around eagle eye, I remembered the H2 mechanic of garrison support heroes. And H6 had neutral forts that when captured, gave control over the nearby dwellings/mines. A combination would have been effective, though I do not particularly care about the control point mechanics.
Instead of control points I would do it like abandones mines, which of course should have a hero too. Only H3-like feature that I woudn't put a hero on would be Creature Banks (mainly because then the H3 attack layout would look even weirder), but if you don't make enemy creatures surround you, then sure.
*
Of course, learn rate could be adjusted or even be 100%, that is not the main thing but increase opportunity to trigger, and value of learning more spells.
In original H3 the worse conditions are:
1- There are few spells
2- Neutrals never spellcast
3- Randomly learning more spells is not very valuable
4- You don't make contact with the enemy until the game is about to end
5- Game is decided usually in a single battle, there is no opportunity to use learned spells later
6- The best spells (Dimension Door, Town Portal, Fly) aren't even cast in combat
The first three things I adressed. For the last I propose (besides banning those because they are OP, but other map spells would remain):
Heroes with Eagle Eye can learn spells cast in the adventure map if they are cast from within their scouting radius
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted June 23, 2022 10:08 PM |
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Rules of the contest:
- Eagle Eye mechanics must remain as they are in H3.
No, for the love of god, no.
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Hourglass
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2022 12:03 AM |
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Something you can probably try right now, without any coding:
*Every spell is "banned" by map rules, meaning the map cannot teach spells from Mage guilds etc. (enabling Disguise or something useless is necessary to make this work IIRC).
*Scholar and heroes that start with Scholar are banned.
*Scrolls are banned.
*Artifacts that somehow give spells are banned.
*Shrines of magic are banned, and every other map object that would teach spells are banned, too.
*Something-that-I-missed-that-can-teach-spells-is-being-banned.
Result: Heroes can only use the spell they happen to start with. Only way to learn more spells is through Eagle Eye.
If one would be worried about getting only a very might-oriented challenge, then consider banning all might heroes as well.
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purerogue
Known Hero
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posted June 24, 2022 12:24 AM |
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Hourglass said:
If one would be worried about getting only a very might-oriented challenge, then consider banning all might heroes as well.
I can imagine a bunch of self-inflicted, one-eyed heroes running around with feeble troops trying their best to copy each other's spells, but end up spending all their time at the tavern waiting to get re-hired.
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I have a book and I had been in a hospital. -Unknown
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted June 24, 2022 03:24 AM |
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When I was a kid who had no idea how to play HommII I had a knight who didn't have wisdom and only had access to my starting town. Eagle eye became my favourite skill because it was the only way I could learn spells and he had decent power and knowledge.
With that in mind:
Neutral Heroes defending neutral stacks. ERA already has a setting for this, though it doesn't seem to change much, so additionally
Mage guild have -1 spell per level
Might Heroes limited to basic wisdom or no wisdom at all.
Stronghold mage guild max level 2?
Castle max level 3
Separate mass spells from normal spells
Kind of bending the rules, but make each spell level (basic, expert, etc) a unique spell, whichever you know the best of is the one in your spellbook.
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted June 25, 2022 02:09 AM |
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Alternate method: Bring back Homm 1 style spell casting.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 25, 2022 08:21 AM |
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I somewhat like some of lordCameron proposals, but
Quote:
Something you can probably try right now, without any coding:
*Every spell is "banned" by map rules, meaning the map cannot teach spells from Mage guilds etc. (enabling Disguise or something useless is necessary to make this work IIRC).
*Scholar and heroes that start with Scholar are banned.
*Scrolls are banned.
*Artifacts that somehow give spells are banned.
*Shrines of magic are banned, and every other map object that would teach spells are banned, too.
*Something-that-I-missed-that-can-teach-spells-is-being-banned.
Result: Heroes can only use the spell they happen to start with. Only way to learn more spells is through Eagle Eye.
If one would be worried about getting only a very might-oriented challenge, then consider banning all might heroes as well.
This is terrible, basically unless you put in third-player heroes in the map, you would only learn when fighting the opponent and could only learn a single spell from them... and then if they main hero was the one defeated, the gamne would be essentially over. So Eagle Eye (and the game in general) would still be pretty terrible. I think the game would be won by one of those specialists like Solmyr that have either Chain Lightning or Meteor Shower, so they really don't need any other spells.
The alternative is banning those heroes as well or "disabling" them as pre-placed neutrals to learn from so no player can recruit them. This would have to be a *very* customized map tho to ensure balance and fun, at which point modding the game is probably easier for this purpose...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 25, 2022 09:35 AM |
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Hmm. H1 guilds didn't permanently teach you spells but gave you as many uses as your knowledge allowed. While I did not particularly like that, it would give a bit more value to eagle eye, especially if it refreshed the uses in the same way a guild would.
Another possibility would be introducing magical vaults themed around each element. They would have guardians plus a magical rod that each turn buffs one of them or harms one of your stacks. Obviously, the amount of casts would have to be limited or the player would want to stall and learn more spells.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 27, 2022 10:37 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 22:37, 27 Jun 2022.
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Well, neutral heroes already have limited spell points so that would be quite similar, but yes, it isn't such a bad idea.
On the other hand if learning from enemy creatures is enabled the only ones with unlimited casts are Enchanters, so either they would have to be limited or learning from them disabled, otherwise yes people would stall.
IF we speak aout a wholly new game, no unlimited creature caster should be able to exist.
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Ben80
Famous Hero
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posted July 08, 2022 08:10 AM |
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Edited by Ben80 at 08:12, 08 Jul 2022.
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The creators of Heroes didn't plan Eagle Eye as a useless skill. In games like Heroes 2 or Heroes 3, it can already be a good skill (though not the best). However, this requires that other ways of learning spells are not so easy. For example, spells are often learned in captured AI castles. So if you make the AI ​​literate enough to defend its castles well, it will already have an effect. Further, in a practical game, powerful high-level spells are far from always in demand - again, due to weak AI - if a person overcomes starting problems, then he does not need powerful spells that much. So improving the AI ​​here also makes the game better.
In addition, specifically in Heroes 3 there are still additional problems - 1) a curved magic system (lower-level spells are often more useful than high-level spells, the dominance of 2 OP spells - Slow and Haste) 2) easy availability of spells on random maps (scrolls, Pandora's boxes)
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 08, 2022 08:06 PM |
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Edited by Ghost at 20:11, 08 Jul 2022.
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AI:
A special Walkthrough and/or a very special single map, when only AIs have spells. What you can't learn from their Mage Guilds, thus empty or you can't get Tomes, thus disabled. This is GM+ aka 3lvl.. When you haven't idea about EE.
HUMAN:
Your game strategy is a passive, when your scouts walk around without attacking against your enemies, and your main heroes take your territory where are sawmill, etc you try to collect experience points before you are ready to attack against your enemies, you say thanks to your scouts got a knowing from enemy spells, if enemies prevent your coming their territory, so they send their scouts, not main heroes, thus cheap Armageddon, otherwise exciting fight between two scouts.. This is noob aka 1lvl.. Thus RoE, but remember that Birth of a Barbarian or Festival of Life, I don't remember closely. Hero can't learn spells, so skill asks hero EE or Learning, when wisdom plus EE, or warrior for Learning.. One testing game, I think right answer is Learning, so you get some extra lvl is mighty..
PRO:
You dare to take a Walkthrough role and read above. Combo! This is elite aka 4lvl, I think so, because I tried, but not succeed..
OTHER:
Try my Chaotic Event (HotA map) also 8 Mighty Kings is coming.. Those maps are combo..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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elysebecker
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 24, 2022 01:53 PM |
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Design an Heroes game where Eagle Eye is the best skill. The hero has to be one who can see far and wide and see through walls. Go to this https://masterbundles.com/best-jeopardy-powerpoint-templates/ site for best templates about jeopardy. He must have a good sense of direction, so that he can find his way back home or to another place. He must also be able to spot out any enemy who is hiding in a dark corner or behind a tree.
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