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| Thread: The (Unofficial) (not HOMM 8) Creature Spreadsheet 0.1 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 07, 2023 11:57 PM |
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I'd honestly say not to bother with Conflux, of if you do, don't stick the elementals on different tiers.
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted June 08, 2023 02:21 AM |
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I know people don't like Conflux but honestly in terms of what it could be, it is my favorite faction. It was just too rushed in AB. Instead of just making the default elementals the bulk of the lineup they could have done something like, for example:
Sprite/Sylph (Air)
Dryad/Hamadryad (Earth)
Kappa/Gataro (Water)
Salamander/Vulcanus (Fire)
Oni/Yokai (Darkness)
Coatl/Quetzocoatl (Light)
Daeva/Serephim (Aether)
Other creatures that could be included in a more expanded system or one not bound to the Heroes 3 lineups are things like Thunderbirds, Aquriuses, Valkyries, Satyrs, Leprachauns, Gargoyles, Oreads, Gnomes, Kitsune, Nix, World Turtles, etc. You can also stretch what an element is, like I did in the sample there. Darkness, Light, Aether, Time, Thought, Space, Order, Chaos, Metal, Void, Life, Death. Conflux is in theory one of the most diverse and interesting factions but sadly its only appearence was in a rushed DLC where the lore didn't really make sense.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 08, 2023 02:54 AM |
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Rimgrabber said:
I know people don't like Conflux but honestly in terms of what it could be, it is my favorite faction. It was just too rushed in AB. Instead of just making the default elementals the bulk of the lineup they could have done something like, for example:
Sprite/Sylph (Air)
Dryad/Hamadryad (Earth)
Kappa/Gataro (Water)
Salamander/Vulcanus (Fire)
Oni/Yokai (Darkness)
Coatl/Quetzocoatl (Light)
Daeva/Serephim (Aether)
Other creatures that could be included in a more expanded system or one not bound to the Heroes 3 lineups are things like Thunderbirds, Aquriuses, Valkyries, Satyrs, Leprachauns, Gargoyles, Oreads, Gnomes, Kitsune, Nix, World Turtles, etc. You can also stretch what an element is, like I did in the sample there. Darkness, Light, Aether, Time, Thought, Space, Order, Chaos, Metal, Void, Life, Death. Conflux is in theory one of the most diverse and interesting factions but sadly its only appearence was in a rushed DLC where the lore didn't really make sense.
I could get get behind this lineup, or one like it.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted June 08, 2023 04:37 PM |
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I agree with rimgrabber.
Another way of doing an elemental lineup that is a bit less traditional could be by having alternative units (like H4) or upgrades (like H5). THis way, there would be less of creating a "Tier" of elements, which always felt strange to me.
I started sth like it in the recreation contest, but as anything lately, never finished it. I know it bears other problems and would not just fit into an H3-style game. But I think it is considerable and could be tweaked a little.
f.e. with a theoretical lineup like this:
1. non-elemental -> Fire / Water
2. non-elemental -> Air / Earth
3. non-elemental -> Water / Earth
4. non-elemental -> Fire / Air
5. Dark -> Dark+Air/ Dark+Water
6. Light -> Light+Fire/Light+Earth
7. all-elemental champion
to fill this with spontaneous, unexplained ideas:
1. Caudate -> Salamander / Newt
2. Feyling -> Fairy / Gnome
3. Guardian Spirit -> Nymph / Dryad
4. Draconian -> Fireheart / Truewing
5. Nightmare -> Thestral / Kelpie
6. Sage -> Truthbringer / Truthkeeper
7. Titan (Greek Mythology Style, not H3 style construct!)
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s1x______
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 08, 2023 05:48 PM |
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I was trying to find if i could do something weird like give them 4 t3, 2 t5 and 1 t6 (which would make total "t" 28, same as other factions), but i feel like that is a very iffy solution and difficult to balance.
Do you guys think this fundamentally breaks the game completely?
Quite cool ideas by both of you tho, will definitely consider them.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted June 08, 2023 07:36 PM |
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So, my take on elementals is that they thematically fit with other nature spirits. So in addition to the basic four there are also things like dryads and lares or maybe will-o'-wisps. So maybe the seven units could be lar, gnome, sylph, salamander, nereid, dryad, phoenix?
The issue with this lineup is that it's a lineup that also works really well for a preserve-type town, to the point that it's interesting to merge them into one town with more than seven units. (Alternatively, if you think of the elementals as summons, they work well with the academy - the gnome already fits very well.)
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 08, 2023 10:27 PM |
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A while back I came up with the idea of 'animentals' too, basically, elementals in the shape of massive animals. Eventually I decided on:
Air - Thunderbird
Earth - Behemoth (shaped like a bear)
Water - Leviathan
Fire - Rakshasa (shaped like a lion)
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted June 09, 2023 03:16 AM |
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s1x______ said:
I was trying to find if i could do something weird like give them 4 t3, 2 t5 and 1 t6 (which would make total "t" 28, same as other factions), but i feel like that is a very iffy solution and difficult to balance.
Do you guys think this fundamentally breaks the game completely?
Quite cool ideas by both of you tho, will definitely consider them.
Personally, I find the 7-tier linear progression system for units to be pretty limiting and I'm not a huge fan of it. For all its faults, I actually think Heroes 7 had the best tier system:
Each faction had 2 "weak" core units, 1 "strong" core unit, 2 "weak" elite units, 1 "strong" elite unit, and then your choice of two mutually exclusive champion units. When I made my own proposal thread back in the day I expanded upon Heroes 7's system like this:
1 "basic" tier unit (weaker than all the others, like peasants or skeletons)
4 "core" tier units (can only build 2 per town)
3 "elite" tier units (can only build 2 per town)
3 "exceptional" tier units (can only build 1 per town)
2 "champion" tier units (can only build 1 per town)
So each faction had 13 units, but each town could only build 7 dwellings so you would have to deal with the opprotunity cost based on the situation. I also had each unit have alternate upgrades, like in Heroes 5. Conflux benefits a ton from a lineup like this, where there are more units and many are on roughly equal strength levels.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted June 09, 2023 02:03 PM |
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Yeah, the four core unit system is very good for conflux, because that lets the elementals be equal. But then it encourages a much bigger lineup like the 13 units you propose, and I don't think the concept works well with more than around eight units, unless you do repetitions (like having both a fire elemental and a salamander) or weird inventions like H3 AB's magic elemental.
That's why when I do more than seven or eight units per town I like merging things, either putting conflux together with academy as the elementals are summoned by the wizards or putting it together with preserve as they are nature spirits.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 10, 2023 11:10 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:15, 10 Jun 2023.
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Honestly, you just have to be more creative. The Sylvan roster f.e. could easily be expanded by adding a few more animals, f.e. wolves, deer, some kind of cat (a cougar perhaps), and kitsune and qilin, if you're okay mixing cultures. The Academy is a little more tricky, until you realise that not every creature needs to be magical in origin or inherent capabilities, an archer with magical arrows works just fine, or even an entirely non-magical creature like a camel-rider.
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Alon
Known Hero
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posted June 10, 2023 06:12 PM |
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The story I'm trying to develop has a werecat unit in the preserve and a campaign main character who's a werecat. But I try to be consistent with having a European and Near Eastern mythological basis.
I feel weird about mixing too much, to the point that I am trying to figure out lineups that are divided by cultural region - so there might be a European lineup, a Middle Eastern one with jinn and konruls, an Indian one with war elephants and nagas and garudas, and a Chinese one with dragons and qilin. The point of these is that the creatures must be viewed at least neutrally in the target culture - European mythology has dragons but they're portrayed as evil, whereas Chinese dragons are portrayed positively.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 12, 2023 11:28 AM |
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Well even at that, you still have animals, stuff like wolves, deer and lynxes, and maybe even wolverines. All of those are forest-dwelling creatures native to Europe.
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s1x______
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 22, 2023 04:01 PM |
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UPDATE: I got distracted and started doing spells instead. It's mostly done, theres 5 tiers, 6 schools, 4 types and i like it. I tried to buff the damage spells a bit. some creatures and hero skills will have abilities retconned after i gave up on my initial spell system.
Updates will pause for 2 weeks notwithstanding tmrw and the day after that because i will be gone and my computer will be at home.
The spell spreadsheet can be found here :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yh_laX_DK_OUiJ6sn17FmPwCUth6wQay/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=117460428661408657173&rtpof=true&sd=true
Join the discord or just come here if you have suggestions
Thanks 
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 22, 2023 09:59 PM |
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s1x______
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 23, 2023 09:16 AM |
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technically you're never supposed to cast those spells since they fall below the mastery that you were supposed to acquire them (its gonna be like Homm V where t1 to t2 are free then subsequent levels need higher mastery )
I was wondering if i should have bothered writing them down at all or given them abnormal scaling to account for it.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted June 23, 2023 09:48 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:35, 24 Jun 2023.
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Ah, so there's no equivalent to Wisdom in the skill tree? Fair enough. Keep them in anyway I'd say.
I also note there's no provision for mass spells. No adventure map spells either.
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matrix123mko
Hired Hero
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posted June 23, 2023 06:16 PM |
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Rimgrabber said:
I know people don't like Conflux but honestly in terms of what it could be, it is my favorite faction. It was just too rushed in AB. Instead of just making the default elementals the bulk of the lineup they could have done something like, for example:
Sprite/Sylph (Air)
Dryad/Hamadryad (Earth)
Kappa/Gataro (Water)
Salamander/Vulcanus (Fire)
Oni/Yokai (Darkness)
Coatl/Quetzocoatl (Light)
Daeva/Serephim (Aether)
Other creatures that could be included in a more expanded system or one not bound to the Heroes 3 lineups are things like Thunderbirds, Aquriuses, Valkyries, Satyrs, Leprachauns, Gargoyles, Oreads, Gnomes, Kitsune, Nix, World Turtles, etc. You can also stretch what an element is, like I did in the sample there. Darkness, Light, Aether, Time, Thought, Space, Order, Chaos, Metal, Void, Life, Death. Conflux is in theory one of the most diverse and interesting factions but sadly its only appearence was in a rushed DLC where the lore didn't really make sense.
This is a very clever idea how to solve the problem of Conflux putting different elements on different power levels arbitrarily. Here all elements are powerful, although their different emanations can be weaker or stronger.
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s1x______
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 13, 2023 10:46 AM |
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Figured out how to share whole folders in drive so now you guys can access all the spreadsheets with one link.
Its a new google drive because my old one is full, somehow.
UPDATES:
Added the Demon faction (IGNORE THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE NO RACIAL SKILL)
All skill triangles for Attack, Defense, Morale, Luck and Warfare available
Finally finished descriptions for all the spells. Changed the format
Added skill triangle for fire
Towns have morale now?
Skill names of previous factions have changed. Let me know if you guys prefer "Shielded" or "Ranged Resistance"
Thanks for the support and continue to follow this thread or join the discord
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted July 17, 2023 08:44 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 08:45, 17 Jul 2023.
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Looking good, though could do with some improvements.
Skills - the format should be: Name | Prerequisites | Effect Rather than as it is now: Prerequisites | Name | Effect
Spells - Fold the health/damage of the spells into the description, because right now, some spells don't have descriptions.
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s1x______
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 23, 2023 02:31 PM |
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Quote:
Skills - the format should be: Name | Prerequisites | Effect Rather than as it is now: Prerequisites | Name | Effect
Sure.
Quote:
Spells - Fold the health/damage of the spells into the description, because right now, some spells don't have descriptions.
I feel like this is kind of clean though, unless you would rather i write "deals fire damage to single target" in the description.
Anyways:
For the faction specific skills, the initial idea was that you would learn a skill and then u could learn the upgrade on top of it, but now I m liking the idea of having a separate section for these skills at the side where they are all cleanly laid out and you can start prepping for them. Which one do you guys think is better.
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