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| Thread: Infrastructure, Engineering, Building | |
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 18, 2023 04:45 PM |
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Infrastructure, Engineering, Building
This tread now is for the sake of discussing an eventual mechanic around the Infrastructure of the kingdom.
What we have in heroes games (talking mostly from 2-3-4, for I forgot most fancy stuff from 5) that involves construction and buildings:
1. Town buildings
2. Shipyards
3. Garrisons
4. Dwellings
5. Resource Sources
6. Torchlight
7. Lookout Tower
8. Paved Roads
9. Bridges
10. Walls
11. Miscellaneous
Taking into account a skill system similar of that of H4, where skills were grouped together for synergy, perhaps we could create something like this:
Main Skill
[*] Governing: this skill would cover both Nobility and Diplomacy skills from H4. i.e., would improve creature growth in town, provide means to trade and deal with alliances between other players, provide diplomatic outcomes for battles in general. ¹Improves secondary skills effects in specific ways.
Secondary Skills
[*] Finances: States and Mining are grouped in this skill, maybe not working the same way, but the idea is just the same. ¹Increases values acquired from resource-producing objects (like Waterwheel's weekly gold production).
[*] Infrastructure: hero identifies areas to build new structures, and improves effects of already existing structures. ¹Grants safer structures, lowering the odds of neutral enemies spawning or wandering next to structures built or controlled by the player.
[*] Engineering: hero is able to build, repair or clean structures on the adventure map. ¹Increases the list of buildings available to build based on scope or AoE.
From the list above, these skills could cause the following effects, as example:
1. Town buildings: Infrastructure decreases costs of buildings and improves effects of structural buildings. Engineering allows the construction of some special support buildings that improves overall quality of life (like Fortification), or boost certain units' production (like Dendroid Saplings).
2. Shipyards: Infrastructure allows identifying suitable places to build a new shipyard. Engineering increases the effectiveness by halving costs of new boats. Also allows building larger boats (withstands whirlpools granting safety to all crew, more accesses between ships during battle, adds a cannon – similar to a town's tower).
3. Garrisons: Infrastructure allows identifying suitable places to build a new garrison. Engineering allows fortifying garrisons and adding defense towers.
4. Dwellings: Infrastructure decreases caravan's traveling time.
5. Resource Sources: Infrastructure allows strengthening buildings making them less vulnerable to sabotages. Allows setting defensive troops directly into the building. Engineering allows building mines on suitable areas. Also allows sabotaging those buildings.
6. Torchlight: Infrastructure allows identifying suitable places to build a new Torchlight.
7. Lookout Tower: Infrastructure allows identifying suitable places to build a new Lookout Tower. Also allows flagging the tower and upgrades it to Watch Tower: any battle within its range of view grants the owner initiative in battle and cancels enemy Tactics skill.
8. Paved Roads: Infrastructure improves movement points of troops using roads. Engineering allows building roads on harsher terrains.
9. Bridges: Infrastructure allows identifying suitable places to build a bridge. Engineering defines size and resistance of a bridge built by the player.
10. Walls: Engineering allows reinforcing or destroying walls.
11. Miscellaneous: some buildings might have unique effects, such as University having additional skills at disposal if connected by roads etc.
Some buildings accessible through Engineering:
[*] Road
[*] Bridge
[*] Garrison
[*] Wall
[*] Gate
[*] Watch Tower
[*] Torchlight
[*] Shipyard
[*] Fort
[*] Mine
[*] Prison
[*] University
[*] Colosseum
[*] Stables
[*] Library
[*] Training Grounds
[*] Siege Workshop
[*] Font
[*] Plaza
[*] Ambushing Site | Trap
[*] Buoy
[*] Beacon
[*] Blimpyard
[*] New Town
If we take into consideration the discussion on the other tread around Happiness, Infrastructure skill would influence levels of happiness or be influenced by them.
Of course, some stuff may sound/be redundant. But the overall idea is this.
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted September 18, 2023 10:15 PM |
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Panda_Tar said:
[*] Ambushing Site | Trap
I'm curious about this one. How would it work?
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted September 19, 2023 08:39 AM |
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Panda_Tar said:
Secondary Skills
[*] Finances: States and Mining are grouped in this skill, maybe not working the same way, but the idea is just the same. ¹Increases values acquired from resource-producing objects (like Waterwheel's weekly gold production).
[*] Infrastructure: hero identifies areas to build new structures, and improves effects of already existing structures. ¹Grants safer structures, lowering the odds of neutral enemies spawning or wandering next to structures built or controlled by the player.
[*] Engineering: hero is able to build, repair or clean structures on the adventure map. ¹Increases the list of buildings available to build based on scope or AoE.
What kind of rules do you see governing the construction of new buildings on the adventure map? Is it Civ-style construction, or is it constrained in some way?
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 19, 2023 03:53 PM |
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Groovy said:
What kind of rules do you see governing the construction of new buildings on the adventure map? Is it Civ-style construction, or is it constrained in some way?
Not that free like Civilization, because it would end up allowing exploits and abuse. Constraints might be set regarding type of terrain, a minimum area where same buildings cannot overlap their 'influence', maximum number of certain buildings under control, possibility for such buildings being destroyed and their resources plundered, fact that a hero needs to be on site during the construction. Well, there might be other rules as well.
Regarding Traps and Ambushes, it's a similar thing than that of building a road. You'll build a trap on a road or set an ambush with some units, similar to a scripted battle. It would, of course, suppress Tactics skills and Initiative, maybe cause a morale loss for the first round. Considering that heroes tend to use roads for faster travel, I would think that limiting traps and ambushes mounted on friendly terrains or roads would be best. Enemies would be able to identify traps or ambushes depending on their Scouting level. If we meddle with Magical traps, so there should have an additional requirement to detect them. Nothing really complicated. The only thing I'm rather undecided is if Trap and Ambush would belong to Scouting skill group, instead of Governing.
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted September 19, 2023 07:53 PM |
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Does this mean that the player setting up an ambush would have to leave a detachment of his troops there, so that they ambush the enemy?
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 19, 2023 10:42 PM |
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That would be one idea. Another idea is to Bribe a neutral army into doing that. Bribed troops would work in a way that it wouldn't let which player was responsible for the ambush be known (if this strategy has any important whatsoever, depending on the way the game works). Or allowing an ambush to be reinforced by redirecting troops from towns or dwellings, allowing a hero to move on or not to weaken their own troops to lay an ambush.
Traps, on the other hand, might not target enemy armies at all, but more precisely, deal with enemy heroes, like crippling their movement for a couple of days, or draining all their mana, halving their range of view. The most army-oriented effect I would imagine is casting curses or spells on the army that will linger until next battle, and if your hero can't dispel these things, it might really cause trouble. That's the purpose of traps and ambushes, right. But I don't feel like having traps causing actual damage on troops, because it could end up being either overpowered (if they acted like Whirlwind does, killing a % of troops) or underpowered (having fixed or scaling damage that won't do anything at later stages of the game).
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 20, 2023 01:14 AM |
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The ability to alter the 'shape' of the map during play, (with the obvious exception of Quest/Border Guards, which are set up before play starts) would certainly make things interesting.
What about portals/monoliths (either one way or two-way)?
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 20, 2023 01:44 AM |
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I would only think it feasible if the player has already access between two points somehow, to build both devices and make them functional. Or perhaps an ally build one. The issue would rest on the fact of how the construction of portals would be limited, a distance limiting factor, or a timeline in game, or an indecent amount of resources or requirements (like, player should have XX Spell Power and the Dimension Door and Town Portal learned in their spell book. Or some other way to make it so, if you have anything in mind.
There's also the access to underground map (or floating ground, if any). Build accesses freely? Or have chance to cave in and kill the hero and all armies? Or just open an access where you had a small cave entrance which could be widened, seen as weak points between both levels.
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 20, 2023 10:43 AM |
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I was thinking, among other things, a resource cost, perhaps similar to Level 5 Mage Guild, and requiring a hero with Expert Engineering on either end (Maybe Advanced on the exit for a one way connection).
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted September 20, 2023 05:41 PM |
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I like the idea of traps. They are simpler to implement than ambushes, and rely on player skill to pull off effectively rather than brute force.
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 20, 2023 09:15 PM |
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MattII said:
I was thinking, among other things, a resource cost, perhaps similar to Level 5 Mage Guild, and requiring a hero with Expert Engineering on either end (Maybe Advanced on the exit for a one way connection).
It is an interesting thought, when you put it that way, having 2 heroes involved actually, and at the same time on both ends of the structure. It forces some compromise and investment, not only regarding resources spent, but time and risk.
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 20, 2023 10:17 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 22:35, 20 Sep 2023.
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I also imagine that at least one hero would need to know Dimension Door (or the equivalent of it), and have twice the usual magic to cast it.
BTW, have you thought about improving out-of-town creature dwellings so they also produce upgraded creatures?
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 20, 2023 10:57 PM |
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MattII said:
BTW, have you thought about improving out-of-town creature dwellings so they also produce upgraded creatures?
That's a hovering idea, all right. However, as I see it, if we consider out-of-town dwellings of being of neutral value, like apt to be influenced by whomever owns them (not talking about neutral units, but an existing faction-aligned unit), I think upgrades could have nuances between owners based on their factions.
My logical approach would be something like this as an example using H4 faction dynamics:
You are a player representing Necropolis, and then you start controlling 2 dwellings: one from Haven and one from Order. Considering Haven is Necropolis's direct antagonistic faction, you wouldn't have the knowledge or the tolerance to try and make something you hate better or functional. Perhaps you could try and corrupt it somehow. That said, your would be able to hire undead Haven unit there, which could be basically the same unit, say the Archers, then they would get the Undead ability (maybe some stats decrease, for being dead and stupid now). Then, you have the Order dwelling, say, the Mage dwelling. Mages could be upgraded to Liches (given liches are not a unit, only a hero) or Necromages of some sort, with real changes that would mean precisely an upgrade.
Another example, being a Barbarian, and finding those same dwellings. Adding fire arrow and melee strength to archers. The mages becoming battle-mages, improving their own battle stats and spells focusing on brawls and physical prowess.
This upgrading state active on a dwelling should reflect some manner of loyalty to the owner. If another one comes by, that effect is downgraded back to the regular dwelling, until the new owner upgrades it anew.
Groovy probably has some other insight on this sort of mechanic.
This is an idea that matches another I had in mind regarding the Spell system, like in H2, having 'meta spells', which would then have different approaches depending on which school of magic they would be refined upon.
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 20, 2023 11:58 PM |
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Well I was more thinking upgrading to where they are in their native town.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted September 21, 2023 03:55 PM |
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Panda_Tar said:
Groovy probably has some other insight on this sort of mechanic.
Since you asked...
I was thinking of ditching traditional upgrades altogether and replacing them with stack-level artifacts.
I normally use Angels as an example. Say that you have three factions - Celestial, Inferno and Necropolis. Each one produces an artifact in line with its themes. The Celestial artifact, when equipped by an Angel creature stack, turns the Angels into Seraphs. The Inferno artifact turns them into Devils. The Necropolis artifact turns them into Grim Reapers. The metamorphosis only lasts while the artifact is equipped. It only works on some creatures while leaving others unchanged.
I'm not sure at this point whether it should produce different results depending on which creatures wield it. For example, turn Angels into Devils, but turn Goblins into Demons. Kind of like the H3 Skeleton Transformer, which can produce Skeletons or Bone Dragons, depending on which creatures are fed into it.
What I like the most about this mechanic is that it doesn't result in proliferation of creature types. Armies might have Seraphs, Devils and Grim Reapers in them, but at the end of the day they are all still Angels, and can be merged into a single stack.
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 23, 2023 09:50 PM |
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On that point of view, upgrades would be more like a state than a trait. I think is a cool dynamic, although it need to be very well designed not to feel like giving too much room to maneuver, if you know what I mean.
Some people might yet prefer a less forgiving layout, where you upgrade something and that's the end of it, the player will have to make do with that choice.
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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