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| Thread: Meta Spells and Schools of Magic | |
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 23, 2023 10:27 PM |
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Meta Spells and Schools of Magic
Whilst discussing the other topic, I was reminded of this idea I had been flirting when I was designing those ideas years ago, one of which revolved around the Magic System.
In H2, we had spells. In H3, spells were subjected into elemental schools, then reconditioned into themed schools in H4.
There has been constant discussions regarding which schools were best in H3, and also some repetition and lack of creativity on H4, but H2 was kind of straightforward, not having such segregation.
So I wondered about having a hybrid system. We would have meta-spells, crude incantations with a default effect, and each faction would have their own magical branch. On this venue, it would feel similar to H4's way to classify magic. Of course, not all spells would have affinity with all factions. It would depend on interpretation where a faction would be advanced enough to be able to subjugate a spell to be shaped at will.
One of the challenges on this kind of setting is creating meta-spells which feels logical and diverse to be tweaked into several different effects, and how would these new variables be learned or granted.
I was thinking on having the Magic Guild to provide scrolls of new learned spells after a hero has 'trained' and created such spell. Like, your hero visited a mage hut or some place where one has learned a meta-spell. The hero can cast that spell on its original form. But spending a day or two at the towns Magic Guild might provide new forms of spell casting.
It brings, then, the question if a town should simply provide spells on its own, or if all spells you acquire should come from outside sources and/or by sharing between other heroes who already have spell books.
Regardless the situation, what I had in mind was something like this:
Meta spell: Magic Arrow
A single-target spell which causes magical damage. Can be blocked by obstacles.
Effect under Necropolis: following the theme of taking advantage of being undead and having spectral bodies and qualities
Spectral Arrow
A single-target spell which damages a living target. Bypasses obstacles.
Effect under Wizard: theme of improving the spell power and purpose, making it better without making it costier
Guardian Arrow
A single-target spell cast on an ally that will counter any ranged attacks with a magic arrow. Can be blocked by obstacles.
Effect under Inferno: following the theme of improving spells offensive capacities
Magma Arrow
A single-target spell which damages and decreases defense of physical targets. Considered Fire Element. Can be blocked by obstacles.
The idea is not making the default Magic Arrow the worst choice: it's a line-of-sight spell which causes Magical damage. Under Necropolis role, however, it won't affect non living units, although it can target anyone on the battlefield. Wizards might cast it only once during the battle and its results will depend on how many times the target will be attacked by ranged units. Inferno adopt a similar approach of the default spell, but it'll turn into an element-oriented spell for an additional effect upon defense, not to mention that effect won't happen against incorporeal units.
This is the premise.
Your thoughts?
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted September 23, 2023 11:04 PM |
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Edited by Groovy at 23:06, 23 Sep 2023.
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Your suggestions remind me of this:
https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/2/12380
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 24, 2023 03:44 AM |
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Ah, there it is. I'll take a look again and see if my personal opinion has changed a bit after these years.
It was always an interesting venue.
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 24, 2023 05:40 AM |
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seems like it will be hard to create that many spell variations and keep them meaningful. Specially in a game with more factions like H3.
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Panda_Tar
Adventuring Hero
CH mascot and right-wing
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posted September 24, 2023 09:16 PM |
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It depends on how you feel forced on creating many variations to begin with. If we don't restrain fixed numbers of spells which faction can have, it won't force new spells for the sake of filling gaps, like some upgrades in H3, H5 and so on.
Some spells might have variations on all factions, some spells might have just one or two variations. In the end, heroes learned in the Magic Guilds of different factions will have more variables written on their spell book. And if we consider a hero able to perform Scholar duties such as writing down new spell scrolls to make them available at their own main Magic Guild, it's a good thing trying to learn as many variables as possible, even when those variables are not better than the ones from your own first faction.
Some most powerful spells might also be considered impossible to change.
Recalling some things discussed on that tread back then, there's also the proficiency mechanic to consider. If you have firebolt, fireball and inferno being the same spell with different proficiencies because your hero has cast firebolt so many times, one will start to perform a stronger version of it becoming a fireball. And another evolution for Inferno. Because the way I see these spells, they're basically the same thing only with stronger effect. Differently from the spell Flame Wall or Immolation, which have different uses.
It feels odd that a hero learns a spell and casts it with its top power from the get-go, and the only improvement comes form the Hero gaining levels (and even then, if said hero gains SP).
The first game I remember having Proficiency explicitly descripted was the RPG Star Ocean: the Second Story. Dragon Howl example.
In that example, we have the special move Dragon Howl which first casts something like 4 small dragons. Later on, when you have max proficiency (numbers count up to 999, but it unlocks at earlier numbers, iirc), it'll send forth twice as many dragons. All characters had all their special moves improved by proficiency, sometimes more hits, sometimes more AoE or speed. Funny enough, I think spells didn't have proficiency-related effects, only a bunch of passive skills like motormouth (a chance to make casting time almost instantaneous).
I like the assumption of strengthening something you are actually practicing. Which is why I don't actually like these games where you simply can jump to and fro builds in skill trees (like in H6 or Mass Effect Andromeda) and simply learn and unlearn things like your hero is some sort of robot and your experience and choices are not actually important, because you can simply undo them.
P.S.: oh, that was a pleasant coincidence. Star Ocean the Second Story is going to have a 'remake' of sorts released on my birthday, November 2nd. 25 years later its debut. =D
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Biology doesn't care about morality.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted September 24, 2023 10:40 PM |
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Gaining proficiency in a spell school can count as 'training'. Oh, and a master carpenter has to put in just as much force to hammer a nail in as an apprentice, so more casting shouldn't reduce the amount of magic a spell requires to cast.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted October 01, 2023 08:06 PM |
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I've been wondering about this as a general design principle. I shared the same sentiments at the time of posting that thread on Celestial Heavens. Now I'm leaning more towards a more organic approach. Instead of starting with a framework and trying to fit spells into it, I think it might be better to start with individual spells that are chosen based on playtesting the game. Then, once enough spells have been added, one can look for patterns and synergies between them.
It's a difference between trying to come up with a spell because the framework needs it, and coming up with one because it genuinely lifts the gameplay.
The resulting patterns and synergies might end up fully or partly aligning with the starting framework, or they might end up altogether different.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2023 12:06 PM |
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I'm going to have to ask you what 'framework' you're talking about, because right now I don't really understand what you're on about.
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Groovy
Hired Hero
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posted October 02, 2023 01:16 PM |
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The meta spell framework, as described in the original post, similar to what I suggested on Celestial Heavens a while back.
While I was working on this spell design, a common challenge I faced was to come up with a spell to fit the framework. For example, I would start with a Magic Arrow type of meta spell, and then try to come up with different variations of it for the different schools of magic (my spells varied by school of magic rather than faction). This was not because gameplay needed such spell variants, but because the meta spell framework needed them. And sometimes I had more spell variants than schools of magic, and had to leave some out, even though gameplay might have benefited from them.
Panda's approach is less susceptible to this than mine was, but the basic thought process is the same.
What I'm suggesting instead is to design spells based on what gameplay needs (wouldn't it be cool if we could magically do X in this situation?). Over time, we'll notice patterns and synergies between spells that might naturally lend themselves to the meta spell framework for some spells. Other spells might be a better fit for some other framework, or no framework at all, and that's fine.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 02, 2023 08:32 PM |
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You're going to have a lot of repetition, and trying to come up with unique features for every faction for every spells is going to be laborious.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 04, 2023 06:44 AM |
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Eh not needed. It's easier to just add a few faction-unique spells like H6 did with sanctuary having monsoon (tho I dislike the idea of tying them to a specific class obviously).
I also hate anything that has to do mastery over repetition, that's for rpgs. In homm you'd feel compelled to stop at every goblin stack and cast firebolt, delaying the battle if possible to cast more of those. This is a hard nope. It's much better to have an additional level scaling component rather than [fixed+sp multiplier] formula. There is also no reason to lock powerful spells behind x casts, that's what mage guilds are for.
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