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| Thread: New/Old Factions alignments |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 04, 2023 01:12 PM |
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New/Old Factions alignments
Hello HC,
I know that we already have the alignments settled for the cities within the traditional: Good, Neutral, Evil, but what about if we add the Chaotic, Neutral (=> true neutral) and Lawful axis?
How would you place all the cities in this table?
Good Neutral Evil
Lawful Lawful Good Lawful Neutral Lawful Evil
Neutral Neutral Good True Neutral Neutral Evil
Chaotic Chaotic Good Chaotic Neutral Chaotic Evil
*note: hopefully the final post will not ruin the table, as i do not know how to insert an image.
Also, you can take into consideration all new cities: Cove, Grove, Bastion, Oasis, Fairy town, Abyss, Autumnn Rampart, Forge, Vori, you name it. Everything. Even without a storyline, I would like to know your vision.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 04, 2023 03:08 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 15:36, 04 Oct 2023.
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I have actually though about this for quite some time. But for Heroes 4 Specially about rearranging the creatures we have including quite a few neutrals.
For example, here are my factions for the Greatest Mod (They are actually 7, one more than default; but the Castle cannot be implemented as we can't add factions yet)
The factions have different themes than the default ones - for example, "Order" is no more, actually it is "Ocean" town, "Chaos" is the Dungeon, "Might" is Inferno, etc.
Unfortunately, most people are too resistant to change to accept "new" towns. Perhaps this would have been helped with better town graphics, but we didn't have many tools back then.
PS: Originally I thought this was h4 forum, I am not deleting my answer because still relevant but made images small and clickable.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 04, 2023 07:58 PM |
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Christmas Town - Chaotic Good
Greenhouse Town - Neutral Neutral
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2023 10:21 AM |
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@NimoStar, thank you for your feedback. Unfortunately, Im strictly referring to the Heroes 3 format and its mods. Heroes 4 is out of my expertise and this thread's scope.
@Macron1, love your sense of humour (not sarcastic). Are these real towns? (genuine question)
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted October 05, 2023 10:12 PM |
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Depends od game.
On Heroes IV we have order vs chaos and life vs death. Order and life is good chaos and death are evil. Separate neutral Might and nature. Neutral is not accurate. It means only that is outer these opposite factions.
In Heroes III it doesnt matter we have rather kingdoms. Erathia Bracada AvLee Krewlod Tatalia etc. Good evil is not a game terminology only added to help make lore description for newbies. In game we have only morale but it is for each faction.
We do not have game mechanics for it. It must be added by mod.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2023 10:25 PM |
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It's easy 
Lawful Good = Castle
Lawful Neutral = Rampart
Lawful Evil = Fortress
Neutral Good = Tower
True Neutral = Conflux
Neutral Evil = Stronghold
Chaotic Good = Cove
Chaotic Neutral = Necropolis
Chaotic Evil = Inferno
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2023 10:41 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 22:43, 05 Oct 2023.
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Also pay attention to symmetry, which even correspond to "faction vs faction" campaign scenarios.
Castle vs Inferno
Rampart vs Necropolis
Wow, this man is already a genius
Fortress vs Cove (remember the details of the first scenario of HotA campaign?)
Town vs Stronghold (Yog The Barbarian?)
Conflux... wait for Factory 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 05, 2023 11:17 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 23:27, 05 Oct 2023.
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baronus said:
Depends od game.
On Heroes IV we have order vs chaos and life vs death. Order and life is good chaos and death are evil. Separate neutral Might and nature. Neutral is not accurate. It means only that is outer these opposite factions.
In Heroes III it doesnt matter we have rather kingdoms. Erathia Bracada AvLee Krewlod Tatalia etc. Good evil is not a game terminology only added to help make lore description for newbies. In game we have only morale but it is for each faction.
We do not have game mechanics for it. It must be added by mod.
Actually there is good/evil/neutral ingame
Good factions sacrifice artifacts at Altar of Sacrifice
Evil factions sacrifice only creatures
Neutral factions can sacrifice both.
I believe only this uses the mechanic
It depends on the faction of the hero as far as I remember
BTW, in this way we can know that Fortress is neutral, not evil as was said.
Officially
Good: Castle, Rampart, Tower
Neutral: Conflux, Fortress, Stronghold
Evil: Dungeon, Inferno, Necropolis
(Why don't we have artifact merchant/altar of sacrifice in H4...)
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 05, 2023 11:28 PM |
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NimoStar said:
baronus said:
Depends od game.
On Heroes IV we have order vs chaos and life vs death. Order and life is good chaos and death are evil. Separate neutral Might and nature. Neutral is not accurate. It means only that is outer these opposite factions.
In Heroes III it doesnt matter we have rather kingdoms. Erathia Bracada AvLee Krewlod Tatalia etc. Good evil is not a game terminology only added to help make lore description for newbies. In game we have only morale but it is for each faction.
We do not have game mechanics for it. It must be added by mod.
Actually there is good/evil/neutral ingame
Good factions sacrifice artifacts at Altar of Sacrifice
Evil factions sacrifice only creatures
Neutral factions can sacrifice both.
I believe only this uses the mechanic
It depends on the faction of the hero as far as I remember
BTW, in this way we can know that Fortress is neutral, not evil as was said.
Officially then:
Good: Castle, Rampart, Tower
Neutral: Conflux, Fortress, Stronghold
Evil: Dungeon, Inferno, Necropolis
(Why don't we have artifact merchant/altar of sacrifice in H4...)
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2023 11:33 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 23:34, 05 Oct 2023.
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These are D&D 2D alignments. There are 9 cases instead of just 3. Fortress has some kind of order (lawful), but in the very nature they are not neutral with their witches practicing black magic arts. And those nasty marauder gnolls at the top of a cake.
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FdgK
Known Hero
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posted October 06, 2023 12:13 AM |
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NimoStar said:
[...]
Actually there is good/evil/neutral ingame
Good factions sacrifice artifacts at Altar of Sacrifice
Evil factions sacrifice only creatures
Neutral factions can sacrifice both.
I believe only this uses the mechanic
[...]
That and the magical terrains Holy Ground, Evil Fog and Clover Field.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted October 06, 2023 12:27 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 00:27, 06 Oct 2023.
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AlexSpl said:
These are D&D 2D alignments. There are 9 cases instead of just 3. Fortress has some kind of order (lawful), but in the very nature they are not neutral with their witches practicing black magic arts. And those nasty marauder gnolls at the top of a cake.
I think the only "black magic arts" is Necromancy which Fortress doesn't get. The witches just use Earth Magic and Water Magic like everyone else
Quote:
That and the magical terrains Holy Ground, Evil Fog and Clover Field.
Yes, I forgot the special terrains because they are from expansions, thanks
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Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 06, 2023 07:54 AM |
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There is also Angelic Alliance, where good and neutral creatures can be mixed without morale penalty.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 06, 2023 09:36 AM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 09:36, 06 Oct 2023.
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Well, there are no direct descriptions of Witches being Evil. Maybe if we look at campaigns?
But... There is something on Beastmasters -
Through physical force and intimidation, Beastmasters build their realms by subjugating those dwelling nearby. As a consequence, they are little interested in the pursuit of mystical knowledge. Beastmasters often costume themselves in the likeness of vicious swamp creatures.
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 09, 2023 05:31 PM |
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NimoStar said:
Actually there is good/evil/neutral ingame
Good factions sacrifice artifacts at Altar of Sacrifice
Evil factions sacrifice only creatures
Neutral factions can sacrifice both.
I believe only this uses the mechanic
It depends on the faction of the hero as far as I remember
BTW, in this way we can know that Fortress is neutral, not evil as was said.
Officially
Good: Castle, Rampart, Tower
Neutral: Conflux, Fortress, Stronghold
Evil: Dungeon, Inferno, Necropolis
(Why don't we have artifact merchant/altar of sacrifice in H4...)
wow, I didnt know that. Thanks for sharing it.
NimoStar said:
AlexSpl said:
I think the only "black magic arts" is Necromancy which Fortress doesn't get. The witches just use Earth Magic and Water Magic like everyone else
And Fire Magic. eg. Adrienne. I think 'Witch' is another terminology for the magic class (well, obviously) but with no real difference, like an ingame ability. It would be nice to have special abilities based on class to give the classes an indentity and to differentiate them.
AlexSpl said:
True Neutral = Conflux
I wouldnt place Conflux as True Neutral. Didnt they help us fight against the kreegans in the Demon Wars? This also was a result of the *Good* ending of the previous Might and Magic installment. Would they ever side with the evil?
I mean, Conflux is a new faction. It didnt exist prior to Armageddon's Blade. Any activity from the elementals was independent and maybe sometimes it was chaotic, evil, but did not have anything to do with the Coflux Faction.
However, Necro and Inferno are pure evil, Dungeon could be an evil neutral at most and Cove could be True Neutral (I see most pirates would join the evil side, but I also see them as joining whoever pays better. If any of the *good* empires pay better, I definitely see a good Cove).
And I would not place any Neutral castle as evil (Fortress, Stronghold, Conflux - but we covered that). The orcs and the lizardmen are only opressed by the more powerful empires, but in reality, i think that they would never side with the evil, because most of them are native to the land. The game is really about extraterestrials VS natives VS evil.
The Might and Magic manuals give you a few common races:
- human, elf, gnome, dwarf, half-goblin - races that are found in Xeen, CRON and other planes.
It is specified that the above races traveled to other planets via VARN (The Tomb of VARN) - with Anubis defenders, sentinels and guardians (probably the dungeon that inspired Bastion).
The humanoid races that are native to Enroth are the remaining others:
- hobbits, orcs, lizardmen, gremlins, gnolls, cyclopes, ogres etc.
And the evils re the 'unusual' Necro (undeads with souls from other plane of existence - probably) and Inferno (race of demons that travel the space to destroy the creation of the Ancients).
Please correct me with any information that I might have overlooked.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2023 06:07 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 18:18, 09 Oct 2023.
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Evil and Good are not exactly the same as being pure White or pure Black. Kreegans are an example of "pure Black Evil" faction, though, also being Chaotic. While, Castle is "pure White Good", also being Lawful. They are opposite to each other as much as possible.
Conflux is True Neutral not because it can change sides, but because this faction doesn't understand the nature of mortals. They can be allies but not because they feel that they fight for the right cause, but because they want to save balance in the world.
Dungeon, which I missed, is probably Chaotic Evil also, but not to the degree of Inferno.
Cove is Chaotic Good as, basically, is a part of humans and closely related to the Good Castle, but they don't share its Lawful ideology.
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Macron1
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2023 06:21 PM |
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Edited by Macron1 at 18:23, 09 Oct 2023.
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"Cove is Chaotic Good"
Good cutthroats
Cove is neutral evil, because pirates love money.
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Drakon-Deus 
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted October 09, 2023 06:22 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
It's easy
Lawful Good = Castle
Lawful Neutral = Rampart
Lawful Evil = Fortress
Neutral Good = Tower
True Neutral = Conflux
Neutral Evil = Stronghold
Chaotic Good = Cove
Chaotic Neutral = Necropolis
Chaotic Evil = Inferno
What of Dungeon?
By the way, I never thought of Tower as particularly "good" if we take into account that they keep Gremlins enslaved with ball and chain and the Gargoyles and Nagas don't exactly scream goodness. Golems, Giants, Genies feel at best neutral to me, and if we look at the story of how the Tower faction treated poor Yog when he turned away from magic, they're not that good. Or the Heroes Chronicles story with the Wizard-Kings enslaving the Barbarians and Mudlanders, and going as far as Gavin Magnus who was the ruler of Bracada being the villain in Heroes IV's Order campaign...
Tower is established in the game as a "Good" faction, yes, but in my head I don't consider them as such. 
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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AlexSpl
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted October 09, 2023 06:25 PM |
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Edited by AlexSpl at 18:27, 09 Oct 2023.
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Well, they are partly Good and Evil. Among them there are bandits, robbers and thieves, but those with their codex and honor. Otherwise they were not be able to be a faction at all.
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 09, 2023 06:29 PM |
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AlexSpl said:
Evil and Good are not exactly the same as being pure White or pure Black. Kreegans are an example of "pure Black Evil" faction, though, also being Chaotic. While, Castle is "pure White Good", also being Lawful. They are opposite to each other as much as possible.
Conflux is True Neutral not because it can change sides, but because this faction doesn't understand the nature of mortals. They can be allies but not because they feel that they fight for the right deed, but because they want to save balance in the world.
Dungeon, which I missed, is probably Chaotic Evil also, but not to the degree of Inferno.
Cove is Chaotic Good as, basically, is a part of humans and closely related to the Good Castle, but they don't share its Lawful ideology.
So, wouldnt you categorize 'saving the balance in the world' as a good deed? It s a good topic to discuss because it can get much-much further than this.
Because, sometimes, saving the balance of the world might cause the harm of some humanoid races. Would then be a good deed from the humanoid races point of view? What about from the point of view of the planet (with its inhabitants - native beasts and humanoid races).
What is a good deed in your point of view?
So Castle is really a good faction?
Aren't they, and Tower/Bracada, evil from Stronghold's and Fortress' perspective as they are being enslaved by them?
Bracada and Erathia only want to expand their territories, which is nowhere nearly as noble and good as saving the balance of the world, if you ask me.
Is there any other (good) reason why Bracada and Erathia opress the barbarians and the beastmasters?
So isnt it all about perspectives?
Btw, what about Bastion, Grove, Forge, Vori?
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