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| Thread: Personal Heros |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted June 26, 2002 03:26 PM |
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Personal Heros
THe real problem I'm having with heroes 4.. (how can I say this without sonding insane?) is that the heroes are less distinct and therefore it's harder to "bond" with them and find a hero which suits you.
All heroes (of a particular class) start with the same starting skills... ie, Nobility and estates for a Lord. Thier biography is immaterial as, unlike the previous heroes games, they have and do nothing to reflect their personalities. I hink his makes it harder to play, as unless you are playing a campaign, you don't grow into your hero in quite the same way.
I want the return of the more varied starting skill. I know his has been said many times before, but bear with me. I miss it. Okay, so it can be said it gives some people an unfair advantage (Ie, Solmyr or Thant), but i prefer the specialisations. If this is not possible, i'd rather like the skills your hero is offered at level up to represent what their biography shows... ie, some of the heroes biographies say the hero is known for unpredictability and insanity. A hero like this would look a littl odd with, say, nobility and estates.
As it is, the accumulation of skills is class-specific rather than character specific.
Apperance wise, I also think they could have spent a little more time on character design. I appreciate all characters of the smae class must look similar, but a character specific change of hairstyle, for instance, could be rather nice. The fact that a female alchemist turns into Rissa on the battlefield is actually rather disturbing.
i'd also like the "specialities" to return, with bonuses (only slight) to creatures under the command of a hero. They were useful and reflected the personality of the hero. The resource bonuses would be even more useful, especially if they were wood... of course, if 3do could see their way clear to returning the resource silo to it's rightful place, that would be even better.
I think maybe I have spent too much time playing D&D games where you can alter everything about your characters to make them distinct, but i think a lack of characterisation leads to lack of gameplay. 3do- sort it out!
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 Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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mcon1
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 26, 2002 07:17 PM |
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Edited By: mcon1 on 26 Jun 2002
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I totally agree. In my mind each hero should be distinct, they arn't just a "class", they are a... hero. Each hero should have a special characteristic (hey, just like in Heroes 3).
I also agree about the art, their appearance should atleast try to look like their portrait. It freaked me out the first time I saw my blue hero with yellow eyes become a red-haired female hero in the battle field!?
good post. I agree.
mcon1
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 26, 2002 07:42 PM |
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this has been talked over...
even back in the HoMM3 days... how about this though?
although most heroes are humans, some are halfings, elves, orcs, etc... methinks they should inherit the looks and special of their race.... (of course that would make Minotaur heroes a bit too poweerfull)
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted June 26, 2002 07:44 PM |
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You are right about this. They start the same and tend to develope in very similar ways (thanks to the fact that they are offered combat too often.)
The problem needs to be solved in two ways:
* Adding some more choices when you hire Heroes (or specialize heroes so they're not the same)
* Add more choices as they develope.
I'd like both specialization in the form of different skills for different heroes (but Heroes should be limited to one Primary skill), and specialization in the form of what skills are likely to be offered at level-up. For instance by banning certain skills on a per hero background basis.
For a starts hero I believe I've already suggested that a magic Hero should be offered to specialize in a spell of any level. The bonus for this specialization is:
1. The spell is automatcially added to the Hero's spellbook when the Hero gets the required skill to cast it.
2. The spell point cost is reduced to half for that spell.
Might heroes should be able to specialise in one creature. Whenever that creature is in the army of that player, the player gives them an additional bonus as if the heroes had Basic Tactics, Offence, Defence, and Leadership. (And if the Heroes have this skill it is cumulative with the special ability for the affected creature.)
The player decides on these when hiring a hero, and they cost Gold to purchase. Say 1000 Gold and limit to 1 speciality/hero.
Appearance-wise it's not good that the for instance the Lady Neela looks like a human female in combat. She's a genie, not a human. Same things goes for Medusae, Orcs, Minotarus, Dwarves, Halflings, Elves and so on.
While they could keep tte clothing they should certainly have done something about the race.
And btw. a small special depending on the race might also be nice. And the bonuses doesn't all need to be positive. Halflings could for instance get penalties to damage and health, but bonuses to their own morale and luck. (or whatever is more appropriate.)
And yes, a few different hair-styles and facial appearances would also have been nice.
I don't think we should have more resources in Heroes. The reason they have more mine types and mines is because they are needed to remove the Fog of War, and with the new Marketplace rates, you can Trade for the resource you need already in the beginning of the game. Resource silos, could perhaps be kept but more because there are too few builds in the towns as it is now.
The place where I would like to see more changes is as the game evolves by adding more secondary skills.
The thread Wish: New Secondary skill contains one such idea.
Another idea is to make the third skill in each group choosable, so you won't always get the same skills in each group. It would also be possible to select certain skills as the third secondary for several different Primary skills.
To make up this group the skills: Seamanship, Magic Resistance, Leadership, Diplomacy is taken out from the non-magic skills.
For the magic skills, we could either take the special skill or the spellpoint skill and place it in the pool. If we take the spellpoint skill, it would mean that the 3rd secondary would have to work as a pre-requisite to the primary skill in the same way as the spellpoint skill currently does.
Anyway, these skills are then placed in a pool together with most of the skills suggested in the thread above. For each Primary skill you then get a good choice for the thrid secondary, because now there would probably be 3-5 skills to pick from for each primary skill. (This because many of the secondaries can be selected from more than 1 secondary skill. Magic Resistance could for instance be selectable from all the non-magic skills, all you need is to select it when you have it offered.
One thing I'd also like is to remove some of the pre-requisites. Why do they for instance require Advanced XXX Magic before they let you pick Basic of the second secondary skill?
The prereuisites for the new skills in the pool would be something like.
Basic for Primary => Can learn up to Expert in 3rd Secondary.
Adv. for Primary => Can learn up to Master in 3rd Secondary.
Expert for Primary => Can learn up to GM in 3rd Secondary.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Perji
Known Hero
Necromancer
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posted June 26, 2002 10:00 PM |
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The only thing that helps me choosing my hero now is the pic, but even these are not very bright... Specialising is good... especially for a necromancer
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Things go wrong because people build walls instead of bridges
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted June 26, 2002 10:00 PM |
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One of the more irritating things is also that the hero classes are not race specific enough.
For instance, it is possible for an ogre to be a paladin. Traditionally, as all AD&D players will be aware, paladins are humans only. This is rather bizzarre.
Also, Elvish characters should have no terrain penalty (unaccompanied by an army, of course). A racial enemy would also be ideal.. for creatures and heroes.
Example:-
Angel- racial enemy: Devil
Imp- Raicail Enemy: Sprite
A racial enemy does extra damage. Not every character or creature would have them, but it would be a good start. This has been proven to work in past HoMM games, ie, Black Dragons and Titans. I do not think this is impractical.
This could also apply to heros (although may be impractical at lower levels). For instance, a priest and a necromancer are bound not to get on.
They supply us with alignments too similar to hose in AD&D not to act upon them, I think. Every AD&D character is unique, where as the current HOMM4 characters are all very bland.
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Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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Perji
Known Hero
Necromancer
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posted June 26, 2002 10:04 PM |
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This is applied in H4, as Life troops have death ward and viceversa
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Things go wrong because people build walls instead of bridges
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted June 26, 2002 10:09 PM |
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That was just one example.. there are others... but as far as I know, the heroes do not...? Just some creatures..?
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Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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Perji
Known Hero
Necromancer
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posted June 26, 2002 10:36 PM |
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Geez, I didn't notice that. But I guess the ward applies for everyone, hero or not.
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Things go wrong because people build walls instead of bridges
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Cat
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Gonna Get Dirrty...
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posted June 26, 2002 10:41 PM |
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And anyway, the heretic class can ignore the effect of all wards. It is very easy to become a heretic.
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Diwethaf Gloau Sylw y Gymreag
http://aozos.com/phpBB2/index.php
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted June 27, 2002 06:57 AM |
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Agreed.. the heroes are too generic. Which face you pick makes no difference. Bring back starting bonuses. Might heroes should boost the effectiveness of certain units, and magic units should start with some spells and maybe be able to cast them with more proficiency.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted June 27, 2002 12:18 PM |
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Quote:
One of the more irritating things is also that the hero classes are not race specific enough.
For instance, it is possible for an ogre to be a paladin. Traditionally, as all AD&D players will be aware, paladins are humans only. This is rather bizzarre.
Also, Elvish characters should have no terrain penalty (unaccompanied by an army, of course). A racial enemy would also be ideal.. for creatures and heroes.
Actually, the restriction that certain races cannot be certain classes is one of the items in AD&D which I dislike the most.
Not to mention that I disklike the complicated way in which AD&D compensates other races by letting them by dual-classed.
Paladin may be "human belief" on earth but what says it's human belief in every other game-world?
And what exactly would hinder humans to be multi-classed?
Instead give each class their own advantages and disadvantages, but don't let everything be centered and counted from humans. Starting with different movement, spellpoints, health and damage may be a way to start.
In heroes 4 it's not practical to have restrictions on class since the class is derived directly from the skills they have. So the net effect of denying a race a class is that they can't learn a secondary skill. And that in turn bars them from not 1 but 9 advanced classes.
It could be done but they would have to re-construct the way skills work from the bottom.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Perji
Known Hero
Necromancer
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posted June 27, 2002 09:26 PM |
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Agreed
It could be done and it should be done. What's the point in having a Wizard hero as a General?
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Things go wrong because people build walls instead of bridges
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Jenova
Famous Hero
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posted June 28, 2002 08:03 AM |
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Edited By: Jenova on 28 Jun 2002
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D&D 3rd edition doesn't have racial restrictions on classes by the way.. Anyone can be anything, although that doesn't always make sense (can you for instance imagine a half orc or drow elf paladin?).
And the reason there were racial restrictions in the first place was not because of realism but it was just gameplay mechanics.. It was done to differentiate the races a little, otherwise if humans could multiclass, and anyone could be Paladins, the choice of being human would be pretty much cosmetic (could also have something to do with the game setting.. Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc.. The Paladin order didn't accept non humans, and they wanted to stay true to it in the RPG). Humans could dual class instead.. which actually turned out to be even more powerful than multiclass. It was done like that in second edition because those were game rules.. not because it was more realistic in life. Just like how Dragons live in Asylums although they could find their home in another castle as well and wouldn't need to be asylum based..
Quote:
Not to mention that I disklike the complicated way in which AD&D compensates other races by letting them by dual-classed.
To differentiate humans from the other classes rather than make every race generic and functioning the practically same. This is a thing I actually liked about AD&D.
Quote:
Paladin may be "human belief" on earth but what says it's human belief in every other game-world?
The game world creators perhaps? A lot of these restrictions are derived from the world that the authors created.. For example, in Dragonlance books, Knights of Solamnia are basically your paladins in FR (although there are Paladins in DL too). The books came before the DL modules of course, and the Knights code was that you had to be of good heart, and lawful to be a Knight.. (Though in real life nothing would stop someone pretending to be good from joining their ranks and nothing stops someone who was once good from turning to darkness later either). Anyway, thus in DL campains the rule holds. Lawful good humans only. You break the rule, you become fallen. The creators of the campain setting made that rule in their books. They didn't make any rule about lack of multiclassing for humans however.. That's something added for gameplay purposes.
3rd edition D&D has in my opinion butchered a lot of the uniqueness and diversity that AD&D once stood for.. The characters are too customizable.. You can learn a lot of feats from other classes and in the end character development will be very open ended, but hardly unique. You'll have a lot of characters that function pretty much the same since they have the same skills and feats, but are from a different class. i.e. I like diversity over customization.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 26, 2005 06:32 AM |
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Revived:
Let's revive this for the release of Heroes V.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Ellderon
Adventuring Hero
Lightbringer
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posted April 26, 2005 01:26 PM |
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Agreed wit hthe topic starter...
I would allso like to able to make my own Hero from ground up...
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elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo
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a_rebirthing...
Supreme Hero
with rebirthing power
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posted April 26, 2005 01:34 PM |
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agree aswell. i hated every class having the same skills. bashed the fun out of character building. lets hope ubi sortd it out
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'Tis better to rely on the the wit of your brain rather than the speed of your hands and mouse -me
Being happy isn't just an emotion, it's a choice!-Leo_Lion
It's Gortex!!!
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lord_crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted April 26, 2005 06:28 PM |
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thw worst thing about this,the especiallity of the heroes... In h3 you can have two with the same skills but with different specillity... the specillity gives to the heroe more personality...
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Dig Out Your Soul
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lionharte
Adventuring Hero
Paladin of Light
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posted April 26, 2005 06:41 PM |
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agreed. I mean the knight's graphics looks like a big grey blob. some of the graphics could have been more unique than a purple robe. the characters use to be more how can I word this, not as strange, in the previous heroes.
and the specialization I want back too. I mean tyris used to be my favourite character now there is no tyris or anyone for that matter, their all just one specific hero with the same stats, image, etc. without heroes being unique, there are none real characters, but the same hero with a new face. and with that, I leave you.
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lionharte
Adventuring Hero
Paladin of Light
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posted April 26, 2005 06:53 PM |
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Quote:
Agreed.. the heroes are too generic. Which face you pick makes no difference. Bring back starting bonuses. Might heroes should boost the effectiveness of certain units, and magic units should start with some spells and maybe be able to cast them with more proficiency.
and might heroes should have bonus hp atk, def, (maybe by like 50hp, 5atk 5def.)
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