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| Thread: Egypt |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV |
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted June 02, 2004 03:43 AM |
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I Like This Thread
I think this is an interesting thread.
 As for a proper name for an Egypt town, how about:
"Pharoah town"
"Pantheon Town"
"Dessert Town"
"Pyramid Town"
"Sahara Town"
"Arabian Town"
"Persian Town"
There are some very interesting posts made in this thread by some enthusiastic members.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 06, 2004 02:04 PM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 6 Jun 2004
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OK, as I promissed. An in-depth analysis of the "Egypt town". Although there are absolutely no chances that this town will be in homm5 (or maybe in none of the following sequels), I want to explain why I think a desert theme town is a viable option for heroes games. I was a little dissappointed because I didn't see a complete well-thought proposal that I like, except the refreshment of creatures that Incubus posted.
Why should there be a Desert town at all?
First of all, I want to point out that it's narrow-minded it to be only a town that would deal with only the Egyptian theme/myhtology. As you know, heroes towns are not based on geography or natioinal myhtologies, but more on philosophy (for reference, you may check out my heroes 3 personality thread), tactics they use, elements, environmental surrounding, dedication to magic or lack of it, devotion to might etc.
Having in mind the rich historical heritage that comes from the Middle East and the enormous period of historical time during which the Middle Eastern civilizations were the dominant (or among the dominant) cultural powers in the world, it is an absolute must that their entire mythological potential has to be included when thinking about this type of town. Several thousand years of the world history practically revolving around the Middle East have awarded us with the huge mythological potential that those cultures created. Persoanlly I think it's often very underestimated from people that are into the fantasy genre (especially Westerners). In fact there are many people that have no idea how many of the medieval/tolkien myth creatures and myths and legends alike have their origins in the desert of Arabia and Northern Africa.
Let me just count them: Egypt, Babylon, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, the Hittite Empire, Persia, later the Arabian countries and more. It would be a big mistake to ignore these cultures and their role in the world mythology lore, and not include them in the actual game.
The name of the town
Consis proposed interesting names, but they all seemed a bit partial. Pyramid is fine, but imo it can be used for other buildings more appropriately.
The name that I come up with and I don't think anyone proposed it earlier is Tomb. Why Tomb? Tombs were well-protected burial place for ancient rulers. They were big and dominant and were in fact the central part of Middle Eastern architecture. There were even entire towns dedicated to tombs or entire tomb comlexes (Valley of the Kings). That's why I think Tomb would be most appropriate for the "Egypt town" (from now on Tomb). Plus it sounds nice.
And judging from previous heroes editions, the town look on the advanture map would be like the Castle within the town. So, it would be excellent if it looked just like a large lavishly decorated tomb.
The identity of the Tomb
Primarily the Tomb is based on the environment (the desert environment), but having only that to bond the creatures in one is not enough. The element of this town would be the fire, as symbol of the Sun. But fire would not be a representation of its destructive nature (like Chaos), but its creative one. Tomb should worship the Sun, as the ultimate life giver and most powerful elemental diety. This is also in accordance with all the Middle Eastern cultures, on which we base the Tomb.
Even more important - the philosophy. Tomb would be a town that repects tradition, town of the old ways, the mystic and archaic. They are all subdued to a greater power, the power of the Sun, as the ultimate elemental diety. Tomb residents are like a great civilization that flourished long ago, a conservative, civilized, but very religious society, and preservance and worshipping of their cult is the only thing that matters to them. Displaying Tomb on the Good-Evil axis would be somewhere in the Middle, maybe more inclined towards good, since after all the Sun isn't a dark or evil concept.
Having said that, there's only one other important thing to note. I think that Tomb should be devoid of Islamic influences as much as possible (mosques, caliphs, sultans or similar) because of the danger of creating an opposition between the Castle (which is mainly Christian) and the Tomb. Plus, Tomb is more based on the pagan Middle East, rather than the monotheistic.
The buildings and town screen
I'm not into thinking about this so much, since it's kinda useless, but I'll put a few words.
The Castle (and the town's look on the advanture map alike) should look like a large mausoleum, or temple, that would be magnificent in stature and size. Here's a proposal. It's the Temple of Hatshepsut near Thebes.
The Capitol could look like a sultan's palace (similar to Taj Mahal). There would be also other buildings inside (like Pyramids, Mastabas, Obelisks, Tower of Babel, Oasis, Cliffs, Sphynx as a statue guardian, other buildings inspired from famous temple sites). I liked the idea about the Bazaar (like a typical oriental market).
I don't want to propose other special type of buildings since it would all depend on the gameplay, but some sort of movement-boosting building (Oasis) could be suiable.
The Grail. Since the central element of Tomb is the Sun, the Grail simply has to be some buiding (shrine, statue, temple, altar) dedicated to the Sun God. Maybe a magnificent Obelisk of the Sun would do, since obelisks were erected as symbols of the sun rays in the first place.
The town screen is an artist work primarily, so I can just say that it should be a desert in the hottest noon sun. Sunset would not do, cos it wouldn't show the solar energy in its full glow.
The magic
Hmmm, this is an issue that depends almost entirely on the whole magic system, but there can be individual specifications for the Tomb. For instance, I think that Tomb related spells, i.e. spells that the tomb heroes should learn easily should be fire/light connected spells. Also there should be some unique Tomb spells (that either the creatures would cast or the heroes), such as: Desert Storm (area-effect damage spell /mass cursing spell), Ancient Curse (cursing spell), Sun Eclipse (mass blessing spell of Tomb creatures), Sun guidance (reveal area on adventure map), Ancestors Blood (mass blessing spell), Summon Mummies (mummies rise from beneath the earth) etc.
The heroes
The two heroes of the Tomb would be the Prophet (the magic hero) and the Zealot as the might hero.
I'm not absolutely sure about the Zealot, but I can't see a better proposal at the moment. Zealots were Jewish fanatical faction in the Ancient Times that put up a strong military resistance to the Romans somewhere around the time of Christ. They commited suicide instead of surrender to the Romans. Their devotion was unsurpassed for the time. The same devotion for the Sun cult can be applied for the might heroes of the Tomb. Plus, the name is original to the desert area.
The specialties of the Zealot, imho, have to be something connected to movement bonuses, since adjusting to the unhospitable desert terrain is not an easy thing to do.
"Prophet" as name hasn't been exploited so far in the heroes series, so this is where it comes into play. It's related to the Middle East (the Prophet Muhammad, as the father of Islam), and generally the psychic people of this area were known as prophets. Prophets should learn easily the schools that contain the fire/light connected spells.
The creatures
Ah, the moment you've been all waiting for. I know that from all I wrote creatures are most interesting for discussion, so I'll try to give the decent attention, but I'm not gonna give statistics or precise abilities.
First, let me tell you that I'm not in favor of creatures being various giant animals (scarabs, scorpions, snakes, crocodiles, hippopotamus etc), historical titles (pharaoh, priest, robbers), different variations of the same creature (golems, dragons, demons) no matter how many awsome adjectives you add in front of their names. Unless you propse a truly unique creature, I won't like it. Also similar creatures with different names is not something I enjoy much.
Amazon warrior
OK, this might not sound very optimistic, but I do think that this game lacks a hot barbarian girl running around stripped.. sorry striped with leather. 
Seriously though, this may not be the best town for this vile "creature", but I had it in my original town system proposal, so why not post it.
The Amazons shouldn't be in the company of the ugly ogres, and this town needs a basic creature. The historical Amazons were native to the region of Asia Minor, so it kinda fits in the whole Oriental concept. They don't have to be called Amazons however. Maybe Sun Warriors or Sun of a b!tch or something.  Sorry, got carried away a bit.
The Amazons have the possibility to act as shooters, throwing javelins or shooting arrows. Otherwise, they are fragile (low HP) and fast (high speed)
Carpet Warrior
Another basic creature. Men with sabres sitting on a magic carpet and flying around the battlefield. Or they can even be magicians levitating in the air and shooting sun rays or casting other types of spells. The magic carpet was typical for the late period of the entire Middle East. It was mentioned in the Arabian Nights and many other books of the period. Later it was brought in European folklore where it was just as widespread as in the East. The point is, it mustn't be ignored with this type of town, if you want to ramain faithful to the mythological and legendary tradition.
Nomad
A desert warrior riding on his steed, a beautiful white Arabian horse. This is a seperate breed, with distinct features, small size, beautiful looks and amazing speed. The rider could look like a beduin with sabre sword. In fact you all know the nomads from the previous series. Not much to explain here. They were the most common type of Middle Eastern warrior. No heavy armour there or infantry, because of the hot desert sun. This unit is absolutely a must for the Tomb.
Arabian Horses
Done with human creatures. Let's move to mythological ones now.
Mummy
You can't have a Tomb town without mummies. Mummies were the emblamed bodies of various individuals of the highest ranks in the Egyptian society, among which the most prominent were the pharaohs. It was later said that the bodies of the mummies come to life to guard their burial places from robbers, in order to ward off against intruders. Also the legend about the curse of the mummy was created to inflict additional fear in the hearts of many adventurers. Soul or not, the mummy is an undead. It was once dead and now it's not. Therefore - an undead. Some mentioned that undeads should be in the Necropolis only. I can't see a real reason for that, unless we try to follow blindly some perfectionist rule. Mummies are resurrected to guard their burial place, which is the tomb, which is the town of Tomb actually.
I think that it's better to give mummies lower rank in the Tomb army, since mummies imho should be the backbone of the Tomb. They would also have a special ability - some sort of cursing spell, along with the melee attack.
Hawkman
Flying creature with melee attack. These would have the heads, shoulders and wings of a hawk, and the rest of the body would be human. They could also be named Sun Priests or some other name. These are derived from the animal-headed Egyptian gods, more specifically - Ra, the Sun god. We could have many creatures with animal heads and human bodies, but that would be overaboundant. Ra is the most important, and hawkmen were also the most common creatures in mythology, apart from the Egyptian gods, unlike the other model creatures inspired from the Egyptian dieties, which were in fact non-existant. Having an Anubis type creature (head of coyote and body of human), reminds me a lot of the gnoll also, and the other inspired creatures would look odd and stupid (imagine a creature with a crocodile, hippopotamus or lion head and human body). Also hawkman should not resemble much of the Ra depictions, but would be more natural, like this one:
Scorpionman
Scorpions are desert creatures, and they should participate in the Tomb somehow. Not only that, but their natural look is frightening and almost monster-like,although they are not a fantasy creature. The only problem would be that the mare increase of the size is not something I like (as I said before). But having a creature that is a mix of a scorpion and a man (torso and head of man, fangs and lower part of the body- scorpion) would be a perfect solution. Here's an example.
Gigant
Three-headed giants with six arms. I'm sure a more fitting name can be found, but I can't think of any at the moment. Anyway, giagants are inspired from the mythical giant Geryon, who fought with Hercules in one his 12 labours. The mythical Geryon lived in Erithea, which is in Northern Africa, another argument why the gigant would fit the desert theme. The gigant's looks would be exactly like that of Geryon, or very much like Goro (from Mortal Combat) but without the two heads.
Genie
This fella you all know as resident of the Tower/Order, but ever since I first saw him there, i thought it was much inappropriate (he was naked in a surrounding of eternal snow!). Ginies were native to the Middle East and it's time they go back home. Spell-casters, bind to serve the one who has the lamp, that each Genie is captured in, Genies were constant companion in the past heroes series, and I haven't got any new things to say here. And I'm sure you are all familiar with this guy: 
Golem
Another resident of the Tower, that had its origins in the Middle East (Jewish mythology more presicely). Personally I don't think he should go in the Tomb, because Tower is all about animating and control, and he'd be more suitable to stay there, but I thought just mentioning it wouldn't hurt.
Roc
Roc is a huge mythical bird native to the Middle East. It was mentioned in the Arabian Nights and it was said to be capable of lifting grown-up elephants and dvouring them in its nest. Its looks are just like an ordinary bird, but the size is not. Here are two pics of a roc, with the second one offering a more alternative look (that I don't like much, cos it reminds me too much of a dragon)
Sphinx
There were two sphinxes in mythology - the Greek and the Egyptian. The Egyptian shinx was a statue that guarded the large pyramids. It had the head of a man (but sometimes ram or hawk) and the body of a lion. The Greek shinx had the head and breasts of a woman, the body of a lion, and wings of bird. She guarded a pass and devoured travelers until Oedipus answered her riddle and she killed hereself. This would be a powerful flying creature in the Tomb, with certain special abilities. I think the looks should be more like the Greek shinx, though there's not much difference, but the Egyptian shinx was never consdered a creature, so there. Here's a statue of the Greek sphinx.
Phoenix
And finally, the highest level Tomb creature - the one and only - Phoenix. Phoenix was a mythical bird, that died in flames and was reborn from its ashes. It was native to Arabia and ancient Egypt (representation of the Sun), so the Tomb would be the perfect home for this magnificent beast. Special ability - resurrection after it dies.
Phoenixes originally weren't all in flames, but it would add much to his appeal, if he's not just feathers and wings. But I do think heroes3 phoenix was a bit exaggerated with the fire. heroes4 was like a roasted chicken. But lacking a nice-looking pic, I offer heroes3 phoenix and a lovely tattoo on a girl's back.
There. You have my expose of the "Egypt town". I just wanna say that I'm aware that writing this stuff isn't gonna change anything in the minds of the game developers and we probably gonna never see this town in heroes games. But I see this as a proof that the Tomb is indeed a town that deservs its place among the rest of the alignments in this game. So, I don't like hearing people saying "Desert town is not unique enough" or smth, because as you can see from this it is very unique, and that leaves the only reason for not including it to be the programmers chronic laziness.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted June 06, 2004 09:09 PM |
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hawkman
what do you think about this: tengu? it's japanese, not middle eastern, but maybe they were somehow connected?
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i don't think it's bad if we had buildings in town that are specific to some religion. we do have chistian buildings in human town, don't we?
putting phoenix in this town seems to be an interesting idea. btw the tatoo on the girl's back is what phoenix will probably look like in homm5 (somewhat resembles the bird in nature town concept art).
if we are talking about islamic culture, the half-naked amazon seems somewhat weird in this town.
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as this town deals with origins of some religions (btw i am not sure it's fair to call it a pagan town, all other religions are pagan from christian point of view), maybe it could be the nomad style town, so that the forest barbarian town niche suggested by the filth would get a suitable amount of space?
what really disturbed me in the thread before was basing a homm town on a somewhat ridiculous (imho) movie ('mummy'). when you said that the scorpionman wasn't a fantasy creature, what did you mean? all creatures you make up are fantasy creatures, aren't they? did you mean it was not mythological? the middle eastern mythology has plenty of interesting creatures, too bad i only remember them vaguely, so i don't quite feel confident enough to suggest anything.
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted June 06, 2004 09:57 PM |
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Well... I read your post, svarog and I have nothing more to do than totally agree with you!
Your eyplanations and background-knowledge are impressive. The "Tomb-Town" as u describe it, is just like I imagined one
I hope, someone with influence reads your post 
regards
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 07, 2004 01:30 AM |
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Quote:
what do you think about this: tengu? it's japanese, not middle eastern, but maybe they were somehow connected?
To be frank, I don't care what it's called. Many mythologies have different names for simillar-looking creatures and I think it's enough if only one of them enters. If you were suggesting about the name, I don't think tengu would fit the whole concept.
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i don't think it's bad if we had buildings in town that are specific to some religion. we do have chistian buildings in human town, don't we?
But I don't think that putting a mosque building would be fine. First, as I said, direct opposition between castle and Tomb. Castle is a human medieval town, and with Christianity as an integral part of the Middle Ages, it is assosiated with Life. Tomb shouldn't be very much Islam dominated, since the majority of the Tomb culture is of non-islamic origin, from a time when Islam was not an integral part of that culture. Even if you push the religious line, I don't think it would be any good to label Castle as Life (ultimate good) and Tomb as Sun (goodish, but not as perfect as Castle).
Quote:
if we are talking about islamic culture, the half-naked amazon seems somewhat weird in this town.
And what do you suggest? Afghan women with spears?
j/k. That's why i said - this is not Islamic town. We only borrow elements of that culture in order to compose an amalgam, such as the one I described. If you insist on etiquating this town, then Ancient Egypt would be more suitable, but I explained in the first paragraph why limiting on one culure is not good. If you have all that in mind, why can't a half-naked girl worship the Sun?
Quote:
as this town deals with origins of some religions (btw i am not sure it's fair to call it a pagan town, all other religions are pagan from christian point of view), maybe it could be the nomad style town, so that the forest barbarian town niche suggested by the filth would get a suitable amount of space?
Pagan religions include all the non-monotheistic religions. So from the christian point of view, not all other religions are considered pagan. That's not the point however. I do not call it pagan town, but I think I made a referenca back there on some elements of the town that come from the pagan civilizations (all the nations that I named, except Jewish and Arabs after the VII century). That's why I say, don't label it. It's Tomb. A Frankeinstein of Middle Eastern cultures, but still new and unique.
As for the nomad thingie, I don't think only that is enough for a town. Plus, how can nomads have towns? And even that way, it would remind way too much of the way it is now. I think Tomb has more uniqueness right now, than if we merge it with few other creatures and call it nomad ("Nomadity" reminds of Barbarians' advanturous spirit and looting practices). The forest barbarian niche can still get a suitable amount of space. I read that thread partially, and i do like to contribute to the discussion there, so I'll tell you what i think about that option later.
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when you said that the scorpionman wasn't a fantasy creature, what did you mean?
No, you read too fast. I said something like: Scorpions are good-looking, but they are not fantasy creatures, so the best solution would be to have a scorpionman.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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jayfrin
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 11, 2004 02:53 AM |
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sun god (ra) should be tall, head of bird body of man, staff of sun, giant bid feet, flying, imune to fire, and a sweet fire spell or sumtinhg
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jayfrin
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 11, 2004 03:02 AM |
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a few good ideas but phenikses, genies, golems, nomads are all ready in game!!!!!
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted June 11, 2004 02:04 PM |
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Quote:
a few good ideas but phenikses, genies, golems, nomads are all ready in game!!!!!
then take them out of the game, lol.
is phoenix something druidic that it has to be with the elves?
http://www.mythicalrealm.com/creatures/phoenix.html some nice text with animated homm2 phoenix (something worth looking at, if you havn't seen it (remember that homm2 was done quite a long time ago).
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Phoenix-(mythology)Quote:
Updated: May 29, 2004
Encyclopedia: Phoenix (mythology)
Sponsored links:
:For other uses of the name Phoenix, see Phoenix (disambiguation)
The phoenix is a mythical bird, sacred in ancient Egypt. Said to live for 500 or for 1461 years, the phoenix was a solitary male bird with beautiful gold and red plumage. At the end of its life-cycle the phoenix built itself a nest of fragrant wood which it then ignited; both nest and bird burned fiercely and were reduced to ashes, from which a new phoenix would arise. The new phoenix would embalm the ashes in an egg made of myrrh and deposit it in Heliopolis ("the city of the sun" in Greek).
The phoenix also appears in the mythologies of other cultures; although descriptions (and life-span) varied, the phoenix became popular in early Christian art and literature as a symbol of the resurrection, of immortality, and of life-after-death.
The phoenix had associations with the sun and with sun-gods such as Egyptian Ra and the Greek Apollo.
The Greeks claimed the phoenix lived in Arabia next to a well. At dawn, it bathed in the water of the well and the sun-god stopped his chariot (the sun) in order to listen.
In Shakespeare's play The Tempest, this myth is famously referred to: that in Arabia
There is one tree, the phoenix' throne; one phoenix
At this hour reigning there.
-(III.III.28) The Egyptians described it as being similar to a heron, but the Greeks and Romans likened it to a peacock or to an eagle.
The word "Phoenix" sometimes appears spelled "Phoinix". It is etymologically similar to the word "firebird."
See also
Benu (Egyptian mythology)
Garuda (Malay Hinduism)
Chinese Phoenix
so, it looks like the phoenix has nothing to do with druids.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted June 11, 2004 02:21 PM |
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Quote:
a few good ideas but phenikses, genies, golems, nomads are all ready in game!!!!!
The point is not to make up a whole new set of creatures, but to make a nice-looking town where the most suitable creatures of the alignment would be put. All those you mentioned belong to the Tomb, much more than any other place, and btw, I added 7 other creatures that are not currently in the game.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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jayfrin
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 12, 2004 02:33 PM |
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pheonickses are in the conflux
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=6]Library Of Enlightenment[/url], to discuss Heroes 4, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=17]War Room Of Axeoth[/url], to discuss Heroes 5, go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=1]Temple Of Ashan[/url].
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