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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted March 21, 2003 03:49 PM |
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Quote:
.........
I, personally do not think that the biological and chemical weapons that Saddam Hussein posseses pose a direct threat to americans. However, when I chose to oppose the war I had to do so with the knowledge that if I'm wrong and these weapons do find their way into a terror attack, there's a good chance that I'm dead, my girlfriend is dead, my brother is dead, my friends and coworkers are dead. I live in New York.
..........
whether or not if those weapons find their way into a terror attack, an Iraq citizen will die, his girlfriend will die, his brother will die, his friends and co-workers will die. He lives in Baghdad.
End of story.
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peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 21, 2003 04:30 PM |
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Lest we forget, Madmartigan. Thank you for the reminder. The closer one is to the reality of this thing, the realler it gets.
How are you doing over there???
PH, sorry to hear about the loss of your Marines last night.
Gootch, I jut read a joke that implied strongly it is inappropriate to refer to a Marine as "sir." I just did that to you yesterday. No impropriety intended.
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted March 21, 2003 06:38 PM |
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madmartigan, I understand that. That is why I oppose the war, but ask any Iraqi if he would rather have a bomb go off in Baghdad or New York. He'll say New York. Doesn't mean he's selfish or unenlightened, it just means he's human. Ask an American if he'd rather have a bomb go off in Baghdad or New York and he'll say Baghdad. Same reasoning. Plus, take the US and the UK out of the middle east entirely and Saddam Hussein kills even more of his own citizens and his neighbors citizens than he did in the time between the Gulf Wars. I'm not saying that war is the right decision I'm simply saying I understand the viewpoint of the people who support the war.
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted March 21, 2003 07:08 PM |
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oh, dont get me wrong.
I quoted your post becuz it seemed very fit for what I wanted to say. It has nothing to do with you. It is not meant to criticise you. It is not directed at you. I am sorry if I offended you.
I quoted your post becuz, it perfectly sums up the sad situation, when applied to Iraq.
John Lennon (<---I hate his music)
ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted March 21, 2003 07:19 PM |
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No need to apologize. I didn't think you were attacking me in any way, I just wanted to clarify my point.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 21, 2003 08:58 PM |
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Quote:
PH, sorry to hear about the loss of your Marines last night.Quote:
*shrugs* It's war, they're soldiers, these things happen. Sorry for their families, but I'm more sorry for the civilian's who die in the war on all sides.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 21, 2003 09:23 PM |
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All good points. As a mommy, I just disintegrate every time I think about the children who are in the line of fire -- there, here, everywhere. Shoot, we're all somebody's kid.
The only hope/comfort I can squeeze out of this whole twisted mess is that by taking this SOB out, maybe we can keep him from committing genocide against tens of thousands of others again like he's done so many times before....
That may be searching; maybe not.
Wolfman, blast it, I kept thinking you lived somewhere around here but it was somebody else I was thinking of...
Can't find such a radio station in these parts. So I missed it again. Sorry.
I'm getting geared up to be gone at a conference for a week in RL, so if anybody responds here I won't be back in touch (after tomorrow a.m.) until next Sat. Just didn't want you guys to think I'm being rude or anything.
Stay Safe Everybody ---
(P.S. for the record, out west here the term "guys" is not gender-specific)
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2003 11:16 PM |
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#1 Gootch what exactly did u meanby that pointless comment/question of urs?
#2 as to all this i would like to insert something that i once found in an atlas of history. it was a modern world map and there were a few marked points on it where the usa and have intervered. (korea, Congo...ect.ect) it was maker quoute: aggressive actions of the imperialist. This would qualify as one of them.
As another thing i would like to say that the only reasons that the us has these so called "allies" in this war is because the goverments that supprt them are made up of ass-kissing people who now have a perfect reason and oportunity to suck up.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2003 05:58 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 22 Mar 2003
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Peacemaker...you are a nice addition...it is good to have someone who argues logically versus emotional hysteria and unfounded accusations.
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"without either a clear and present danger to US, or international community support to lend legitimacy, we are arguably setting a dangerous global precedent by claiming such a danger to justify this attack"
Excellent point and really the crux of a logical argument against Bush's stance. I think defining clear and present danger is not a neat and easy concept. I believe 9/11 should and did drastically change our understanding of the world we live in and thus the definition of "Clear and Present" has been expanded. There should be a standard before attempting a military intervention...I just think that Iraq has met the criteria with our more full and comprehensive understanding of the dangers that are around us now.
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"Many have blind faith in their government here, which I do not and simply cannot have"
Well congratulations...you now are a republican Government is not and never will be pure...it almost can't...but I will continue to trust and believe that I have enough historical precedence to believe that we have the best form of government possible. I trust Bush unequivocally at this time...but the government never
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"There's also 146 nations not in support (or not caring)"
Not caring maybe...not supporting possibly...but against...NOPE. Big difference to remember. As far as significance of numbers...this coalition is BIGGER than the coalition in 1991...so I guess that would make it pretty significant. Many Muslim countries are actively supporting it. The list is growing daily...started out at 30 now up to 45. Moreove....many Arab nations are directly assisting us...Kuwait, SA, etc...so lets look at all the facts.
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"You haven't answered me, though... Ever seen a war yourself?"
I would answer you if I understood your question...everyone has seen a war.
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"I am now listening to Rush Limbaugh...great radio program, peacemaker and dArGOn should listen to it."
I have listened to Rush for a decade and read his books...he is the single most important political commentator ever.
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"Say, dArGOn,it just came to my attention that I've really been screwing up your name"
NP...actually I was quite impressed that you took the time to try and make the caps Even I get lazy and don't do it all the time for my own name...lol.
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"Of course we are attacking a weaker country! How could we not be? We are the worlds' only superpower!"
LOL can't argue with that.
I am surprised Wolfman that you had the patience to respond to FIREOFTRUTH (AKA MANWHODOEN¡¦TKNOWHOWTOTYPEINLOWERCASE). See Peacemaker...FIREOFTRUTH...is exactly what I am talking about...how do you debate someone running with so few lights on?
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"Dargon! Please not Fire's comments, THAT is an example of anti-american comments for the sake of it, and please don't say I'm THAT bad!"
You are no where NEAR that bad I think you are a good guy who has got too caught up in the popular European anti-Americanism...heck if I lived in Europe I might actually get caught up in it also
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"one garunteed way to ensure that the UN is doomed."
Let us hope so....cross are fingers The UN has proved it is as meaningless to world safety now as the league of nations was in WWII. May they both share the same fate
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"Fire, don't expect people read your comments if you hold your capslock."
Hey we agree upon something csarmi...gives me a headache just to look at all those caps
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"Iraq fired Scud missiles at Kuwait on Thursday"
Wait a second how did Saddam fire missiles he didn't have???? Boy those inspections worked so well!!!
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"lawyer or not"
What type of law?
Bort nice balanced post
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"Dargon, kinda difficult fighting a war on so many fronts, isn't it?"
Not quite sure what you mean?
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"I'm just glad some of that got edited out before dArGOn go hold of it..."
Dang it I missed it Oh well I was skipping past his posts anyway... just don't have the patience...and since I have worked years in locked psychiatric hospitals that says something about fireboy.
In summary I will leave you with this profound thought:
"Half the states that sometimes comprise the Security Council deny their own citizens the very voting rights their mouthpieces enjoy in New York. For all the talk of pernicious American unilateralism, all of the permanent members routinely have used force for their own perceived national interests — both preemptively and without UN approval: Britain in the Falklands; France in the Ivory Coast; Russia (omitting the Soviet record in Eastern Europe and Afghanistan) in Chechnya; and China in Tibet, Korea, and Vietnam. "
Hmmmm how does one spell hypocrites???
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2003 06:07 AM |
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commic relief
Can't resist...this one had me rolling....
"You know the world is going crazy when the best
rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy,
the Swiss hold the Americas Cup, France is accusing
the US of arrogance and Germany doesn't want to go to war!"
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2003 06:09 AM |
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I will tell you something that scares the crap out of me now...Turkey entering Iraq...I am all for them protecting themselves...but if they start messing with the Kurds...all bets are off...this will turn out badly for everyone except Saddam and his league of appeasers.
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peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted March 22, 2003 06:37 AM |
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daRgoN, as PH pointed out to me earlier I've been way too hard on you. The fact that you remain kind to me underscores this fact. Either that, or you've just had your pipes cleaned. !!!!
Loved your posts. Getting ready to leave town so gotta run right now, but if you'll be patient I'll get back to you next week (when they're stale as hell!)
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted March 22, 2003 07:12 AM |
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Dargon, things like this Turkey invasion was the main reason to oppose the war. (the fact, that the outline is so unpredictable)
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 22, 2003 03:32 PM |
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Quote:
Not caring maybe...not supporting possibly...but against...NOPE. Big difference to remember. As far as significance of numbers...this coalition is BIGGER than the coalition in 1991...so I guess that would make it pretty significant. Many Muslim countries are actively supporting it. The list is growing daily...started out at 30 now up to 45. Moreove....many Arab nations are directly assisting us...Kuwait, SA, etc...so lets look at all the facts.
Yes indeed, examine Kuwait and SA and you'll see a fair few facts about these regimes that places them little better than their Iraqui counterparts. As for being bigger, barely any of those nations are offering millitary aid, whereas in the Gulf there was millitary backing from a large number of countries, including those arab ones mentioned, much less today. As for moving up to 45, well with respect as no-one can tell us who these 15 shadowy friends are they are to say the least dubious.
Quote:
I would answer you if I understood your question...everyone has seen a war
Though I'm no mind-reader I'm guessing he's talking about whether you've served in the millitary in a war, seeing the action and consequences first hand, or whether your experience of it like most people's tend to concentrate on what we see on TV.
Quote:
you are a good guy who has got too caught up in the popular European anti-Americanism...
My nationality is the sole thing that allows that kind of comment, it would make no difference if I was american, I'd still think war before other options wasn't the right option. Quite how this makes me anti-american is your decision I guess.
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Let us hope so....cross are fingers The UN has proved it is as meaningless to world safety now as the league of nations was in WWII. May they both share the same fate
This from someone who has used the UN to justify the conflict, through the resolutions and conditions imposed on Iraq that you now claim the US is enforcing. Considering it's previous use has helped to resolve some crisis in the past and provides at least a movement through which we can deal with issues around the world. Trouble is it requires nations to be bothered to pay attention to it whenever, not just when said nation NEEDS the UN. It also needs nations to accept the notion that the UN has some power to decide policy for all nations which nations never allow anyway unless forced to.
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Hmmmm how does one spell hypocrites???
indeed, but how does that justify anyone doing such a thing?
Quote:
I will tell you something that scares the crap out of me now...Turkey entering Iraq...I am all for them protecting themselves...but if they start messing with the Kurds...all bets are off...this will turn out badly for everyone except Saddam and his league of appeasers.
Not entirely unsuprising, as I said, we appease those kurdish murderers and fight the other kurdish murderers, what a good policy. Quite why that will make happy the germans and french is quite slanderous though.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 22, 2003 06:00 PM |
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War continued for few days. Several US soldiers died. Unknown Iraq soldiers/civillians died.
War Economy:
Expenditure - X billions military expenses
Income - 10X billions in terms of
a). sale of weapons
b). repayment from new Iraq regime for re-construction of Iraq. The repayment can be in form of cheap and steady supply of oil
It sounds to be good investment........
If the war can only be ended by the death of Saddam, let's pray for his quick death. Well, if the same can be achieved by the death of Bush........I won't be too sad to see it..........
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 22, 2003 07:49 PM |
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you know i just loved that qoute of yours about popular anti-americanism. It just shows how arrogant and ignorant you are. how about the popular anti-europeanism?
Yet i heard another if not funny at least interestingly formulated thing today. " american President George Bush has met today with his staff and advisors to disscus the curent situation and to tell them his views."
It should sound more like this: "The extreem-rightist and warhawks have met today with george bush their pupet to tell him what to do."
yet it is sad how a nation like the US can break internation law without any concenquense. just shows how the whole world is run by one system which people can't seem to be able to resist...
and another thing when I mentioned the so called system. It's interesting that a communist or socialist party doesn't exist in the US but there is a Nazist party...interesting.
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted March 22, 2003 08:55 PM |
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Quote:
yet it is sad how a nation like the US can break internation law without any concenquense.
When did the US break international law? Have you been listening to Aldouri a little too much? 1441, read it.
Quote:
It's interesting that a communist or socialist party doesn't exist in the US but there is a Nazist party...interesting.
Oh, but there is! I got to look at an absentee ballot form and all of those were on it.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted March 22, 2003 09:14 PM |
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1441 - Read it, don't think it justifies or denounces war either way. It's a fudge and was always going to be used by both sides to prove their claims. Read the wording of the resolution back in 1991 authorising war against Iraq, lot more strongly worded than 1441, damn sight clearer too.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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melissa_X
Adventuring Hero
Tiffany Taylor
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posted March 22, 2003 10:49 PM |
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Instead of bashing each other think of the innocents subdued
A playstation would be appreciated
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SirDunco
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted March 23, 2003 09:13 AM |
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Wolfie the problem is that the US never presented any material evidence. Thats like saying :" Hey i think u took my walet I'll beat u up now beacause i think so..."
That so called evidence that Collin Powell presented was as clear as a fogy night...
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