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| Thread: ----> Ultimate Battle Poll <----- |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 11, 2002 12:16 AM |
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Poll Question:
----> Ultimate Battle Poll <-----
Well this has been a LONG debated issue between me and several others at different times. And infact this very issue has led to my sever drop in excitement and activity with heroes 3 game.
Rushing = Good Tactic.
Hmmm I gotta laugh when I hear people say this. In season 1 and season 2 of TOH. " The Rush" was used as a defensive tactic. FOrexample if you seen your opponent double building etc, then you would take a RISK and try to rush. Maybe losing some of your army on the way etc.. BUT BUT nowadays the way the FIXED maps are designed.. People use the RUSH every single game. And can do so with NO losses. So no risk involved. It has lowered this game of strategy into a speed oriented game. And if people tell you that they dont memorize a map that they have played 150+ times they are LYING!! Either that or have Altimers(sp) disease and forget the map after each time they play it. So it makes the flawless RUSH with no losses all the more easier.
Exploration = Indepth Strategy game
Starting the game with NO idea what so ever where your opponent is, is in my opinion very exciting. Do I look North or South. Is he above ground or under? Will he need to break thru 60 Effreets to get out and explore, what will I find around the corner? Hunting my opponent or Letting my opponent Hunt me is quite exciting. Far more exciting than knowing exactly where they are and running from Point A to Point B as fast as possible and fight.
XtraLarge vs. Medium
Another HUGE factor in this is the size of maps. ALL fixed maps played are MEDIUM or atleast 98% of them. When a player comes to rush you you have very little other options. No other place to run if your not ready, no places on map unknown to opponent to try and rebuild camp. You are stuck on a medium sized map and the way they are designed you are easily pinned into corner on a rush.
Xlarge maps however give ya plenty more room to expland and beable to stave off a rush. And it doesnt have to be Random. I would go back to playing FIXED maps if they were Xlarge maps. Plenty of option and strategies intend of a set path of events that the map maker pretty much set forth in the design of the map. i.e. hit point 1 point b point c then Utopia then break to middle week 3 day 1. LOL same senerio on every map EVERY map!
So in Summary I guess my biggest question is this: Why does everyone feel that this game is all about being the fastest? There is so much more availble in this game it is only limiting the game by packing everything into 2.5 gameplay weeks.
Which catagory do you fall into????
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 11, 2002 12:40 AM |
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hmm...
Where is the option, that 'i play a map often because i enjoy it - and by playing it to the best of my ability i am ready to fight by week 2-3' ? 
some maps are generally seen as 2-3 week maps, so if you're there week 1 then ya, maybe u rushed  but if you're there in week 2-3 then you're just on time lol
Like say for example, i play Andi on Giant War , he's breaking thru to my side and i'm nowhere near ready, i don't think i got rushed, i just think i got outplayed lol
Some players like to check everything out and build up, and some like to play as precisely as they can to achieve their goals as quickly as possible - this doesn't neccesarily mean a rush..
Personally, i've become very mellow nowadays, but i remember when i played more competetively it was always a focus on prioritizing where to go and what to do to be ready before my opponant - i never saw it as "rushing" as such, just trying to play the map as best i could...
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted September 11, 2002 12:40 AM |
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Edited By: zud on 10 Sep 2002
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I'll E-mail you a semi-open map I made. It's medium. No utopia. You want a change in maps. Just ask me.
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Go Red Sox!
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 11, 2002 12:46 AM |
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@ Pandora
See thats my point exactly. You said you prioritize to try and accomplish your goal faster???!! But that was my question is WHY? WHY should that be the point to ever map and game? I understand it is thrilling to beable to say you played fast, but not worring about the word RUSH I am more interested in why everyone thinks the game play itself needs to be done with speed at all.??? Just curious
Jinxer
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 11, 2002 12:51 AM |
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Cuz its war man!!!!!
Do you ask a soldier why he wants to shoot the enemy before he gets shot?
I like an exploring kinda game just as much as you do, especially cuz i suck now - but the point of the game is to be the last standing, and win all the battles etc..
So its not rushing, its just playing the game! 
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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DocFritch
Hired Hero
Never let your dreams die
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posted September 11, 2002 01:03 AM |
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Well it seems to me that playing the same fixed maps continually would get a little stale.
The "spontaneous" coefficient goes to the celler.
Get the best arties and the right combo of ups and go get your opponent quick.
It gets like playing Pac Man. Follow the pattern and you'll get a good score. The only challange is finding the perfect "pattern" for doing any given map as quick as you can.
I've personally found that trying to "outplay" someone who knows the map to this extent is relatively fruitless. It's a challange to give someone a "run for their money" but generally the result is a foregone conclusion.
Randoms give everyone an even start.(except for Jinx and Midnight of course)
From there your skills will soon determine outcome and give all players a variety of options to explore throughout the game.
Just some "random" thoughts.........
Doc
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Always tell the truth.....you'll never have to remember ANYTHING
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DocFritch
Hired Hero
Never let your dreams die
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posted September 11, 2002 01:25 AM |
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Quote:
Cuz its war man!!!!!
Do you ask a soldier why he wants to shoot the enemy before he gets shot?
I like an exploring kinda game just as much as you do, especially cuz i suck now - but the point of the game is to be the last standing, and win all the battles etc..
So its not rushing, its just playing the game!
I agree Pandora BUT only as long as you don't place arbitrary rules into the game. such as no hit and run.
If you play the game with no rules then you do indeed have a "war" .
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Always tell the truth.....you'll never have to remember ANYTHING
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted September 11, 2002 02:17 AM |
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in regards to this board...
Here is a general statement.
If you are playing someone at your own skill level, you cant rush or be rushed very easily, IF the map doesnt have killer relics or killer diplomacy.
So if rushing is a problem with you, choose what maps you play more carefully and then it won't even be an issue. Just look at battle for honor, you may say... dang that map is so small and open, but when I used to play that map I think I had some of my longest duels ever.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 11, 2002 02:49 AM |
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hmm
I'm not sure i understand the relation between what i said and hit and run, but i'm sure not gonna start anything there.
Bottom line is and always has been that people should play to have fun. Be it rush, no rush, H&R , no H&R, no attacking skels with shooters
So if for Jinxer a 3 week game is no fun, then he should absolutely stick to what he enjoys and not play those maps - but if someone else has a favorite map they should play it 100 times if they want to, it it doesn't mean one guy is better than the other, or one relies on memorization - it means that different people enjoy different things and that happens , no?
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 11, 2002 02:51 AM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 10 Sep 2002
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@ Jb
That would be a great Idea JB to bebable to play other maps. BUT ALL TOH fixed maps are virtually the same. They all have the same design concept in mind. For example on SD3 the garrison has 16 dragons in it. THat is classic week 3 mateirial. Why not put 25 Dragons in it? Why not make some Large maps? Why not Xlarge? Why not make the terrain harder so you cannot get to your opponent within 1 weeks travel etc. There are several map aspects that could solve alot of this. But if you looked at almost every map posted on TOH. I beat all of them if played more than 2-3 times you could find a way to be fully built and at your opponents door step week 3.
And since most players are not willing to try differnet maps if I want a game I have to play those maps.
@ Pandora
I agree with you that it should be about fun. But how fun can it be for the 5% of us that want to play a bigger variety of map designs and the other 95% refuse. Uncharted Lands tourny that B@stards tourny held was in my MIND the best tourny ever made in the 4 years of my Heroes experience. New never before seen balanced maps! Wish we could have more of them
Jinxer
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted September 11, 2002 03:01 AM |
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My stratagy depends on the map.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted September 11, 2002 04:23 AM |
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War I dont want war I want peace so I will let you figure me out & god save thy queen 
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Dreaming of a Better World
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salpinx
Hired Hero
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posted September 11, 2002 06:34 AM |
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I will pitch in with Pandora on this one -- there is no such thing as rushing -- just playing a map as good as you're capable. I guess it's a chess mindset as opposed to playing a game of Risk for example. You have to keep in mind that it took us all a long time to get to the point where playing a ToH map was predictable. It's the drive to always improve your skills and it's easier to evaluate on fixed maps over a period of time.
After a while, I much preferred to never pick starting town types or heroes -- it added an extra kick of randomness and exploring tactical challenges I never dealt with when I chose my favored combos. If I hadn't burned out before the random craze kicked in, I'm sure that I would have been playing 100% randoms as I think they do represent the most unpredictability which is what a game needs after a 4-5 year run. But can random games keep you hooked forever? I don't think so -- eventually even random games are not exciting to play.
Also, random games are not necessarily the most challenging. This goes to JB's point -- one of the hardest games I ever played was a 5 hour affair with Ves on Battle for Honor. You have to play your as-s off to go 5 hours on BfH my friends.... I was a basket case for a few days after that match
The random vs fixed debate seems to be a positive testament to the various dimensions that H3 provided (successfully) to gamers. I think H4 has the same ingredients and I'm getting stoked up about more addictive competition along the same lines! What I like best about this discussion is that hopefully there will be enough people around now in a gaming room who realize that variety and unpredictability are just as important as ToH points. For a while there, the only way to get a game going was to play one of several maps. Let's not let that happen again
salpinx
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted September 11, 2002 07:11 AM |
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i tell ya why not to put 25 dragons in jinxer: the bigger the guard the more you depend on stuff like res, the right town or heroes like tazar...and what does the player do with a average hero and tower for example?
if i have 16 dragons and play good i still can beat that...25 only the player with much luck can beat, game over
about the rush thing, heroes is about who does things faster, you dont ask your chess opponent too if hes rdy to loose his king...
week3 isnt rush for me, and sd3 certainly is no rush map at all, early middle break doesnt always win...
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Morgoth
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 11, 2002 09:29 AM |
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Edited By: zud on 11 Sep 2002
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hmmmm most people picked that they enjoy an indepth game with multiple strategies???? Then why do most people not like random maps??? or is it just that most people voting enjoy random maps???? If I play for a grade I will only play random maps.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted September 11, 2002 03:50 PM |
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@ Andi
You keep equating this to Chess. So what your saying is more like a chess player always checkmating his opponant in 4 moves EVERY game! Wow that has to be pack full of fun. To play 100+ games in a row and make the exact same 4 moves in all 100 games just to get the win. I say Kudos to the player for being great enough a player to checkmate me in the same 4 moves. But how much fun can that be?
As for your statement about the 25 dragons Andi. 25 Dragons are only hard if you insist on taking them week 3. Take them week 4 or 5. Then they not so ruff. And it always Amazes me when people say that getting to middle does not help them win??!?!?!!! They why the HELL do you make it such a TOP priority to get there first and fast! And more importantly why design the map with such a Rich and powerfull middle, if it is not put there to ensure the win for the fastest player.??? Give me a break.
For 4 years now we have all played the same maps over and over and they all have the same design. The more I think about it the more I see that RUSH is not the proper word to describe my frustration with how all games turn out. I personally dont care if my opponant shows up week 3. The thing that is most annoying is when my opponant shows up week 3 with a 3 Utopia to none advantage and I am stuck in the corner like a sitting duck just waiting for the slaughter.
So bottom line is I should not be frustrated with the players that attack week 3, I should be frustrated with the design flaw of 98% of fixed maps.
I Think I will work on a few larger maps with different designs in mind, then we shall see if all you players that claim to be willing to try new things actually mean what ya say.
Jinxer
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salpinx
Hired Hero
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posted September 11, 2002 06:40 PM |
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You certainly have a point there Jinxer—all H3 ToH maps have pretty much gravitated to the same model. I suspect it is because most players play those kinds of maps most often and not because there isn't a variety of maps available. Play a game with Tim—I never played a standard map with him! Just don't let him sucker you in to playing his middle earth map
I think the solution is to develop players/friends/sub-tourneys whose goal/mission is to play "outside the box." One more map won't make a difference one way or another. It's a mindset issue (one promoted primarily by the quest for ToH ranking points) and I think you will find plenty of people who would appreciate efforts to promote unique and varied gameplay options.
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HALT
Known Hero
Knight of Justice
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posted September 11, 2002 07:41 PM |
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here is an idea for you! make a map say like a HG but without a gates only guard towrs. So your opnent cant reach you bifor you rdy. Of cors no teleportation spalls and staff like that allowd.
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Choose your friends carefully. Your enemies will choose you.
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sos
Known Hero
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posted September 11, 2002 08:41 PM |
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Jinx, closed maps will always be about speed. The fact that one of the players was able to break first means that he is in a better shape and therefore more likely to win even if there is absolutely nothing in the middle to boast him (provided he didn't suffer too many losses of course). You have to accept that fact and not play closed maps at all if you don't like them.
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted September 13, 2002 04:54 AM |
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I like open maps better myself, less boring. It's more fun to make some kind of contact w/ opponent whether it's scouts or secondary hero vs. secondary hero.
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Go Red Sox!
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