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| Thread: NATO expansion !!! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2002 08:36 AM |
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Edited By: dArGOn on 26 Nov 2002
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“Geuss we'll stop asking the questions when you provide a reasnoble answer.”
Hmmm more likely an answer that you agree with…. as reasonable explanations have been given ad nauseum.
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“Like I said, there's more than enough enemies like the one in Belarussia, so why is america not clamouring for their removal from power in the same way? What pray does make Iraq so different if it is not oil/the will to make up for earlier mistakes”
That argument gets tiresome…on one hand that mentality argues “you must finish the war on terrorism with OBL…you don’t have enough resources to advance on 2 fronts”…then that same hypocritical wing demands that we right ALL the wrongs in the world simultaneously. Please pick a stance and stick with it.
If people don’t understand that things must be addressed methodically then me explaining it won’t help.
If people don’t understand that Iraq has proven to be a clear and present danger given past conduct and in violation of the terms of surrender than my explaining it won’t help any at all.
If people can’t grasp that oil is a realistic economic interest for the whole world I can’t help them. If people don’t understand that the USA is not going to set up a gas station on top of Iraq for their own supply then I can’t help them.
If ignorant people don’t understand that NC’s violation of their treaty is a new problem (which by the way it was the good ole USA that exposed the whole fraud) and that diplomatic means are being exercised then me explaining it won’t help. Saddam has been a constant problem for over 10 years…NC’s deception was only recently discovered and is being dealt with in diplomatic means at this time…but then the liberals are the ones demanding only diplomatic interventions regarding Saddam…so I would think the liberals would be quite pleased at the interventions the USA is using…but no…they hate the USA so it doesn’t matter what we do…it is just wrong.
And what exactly is UK doing to address all of these problems? Are they invading all these other problem areas that you have identified?
”Nazi like tactics”
I believe he was referring to Bush’s patient and persistent attempts to building a coalition for regime change….very Nazi like indeed. Hitler was known for building coalitions for removing dangerous dictators….Hitler was such a man of peace and cooperation (remember his great treaty that he honored with the USSR). That you would even tolerate such a statement shows your complete and unabashed bias which in all frankness boarders on bigotry
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“for example the bombing of cities containing innocent people to remove a countries threat...... Guilty (just as the allies were in WWII)”
Can you please please please instruct me in my obviously great ignorance where Hitler EVER bombed innocents to remove a sadist dictator in violation of their terms of surrender?????? Can you please enlighten me where Hitler ever did anything that wasn’t motivated by his narcissistic drive for power? Can you please inform me of anytime that Hitler did anything to help restore democracy to an enslaved nation? That you would even consider equating those makes me ill. That you could even stand for a comparison between Bush and Hitler indicates that you are completely absorbed in your emotional reaction to the USA….it is shameful that you would even begin to defend that comparison!!!!!
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” We have stood true to you in The gulf, Kossovo, All of the actions in no-fly zones, Korea etc.
EXCUSE me????? You have stood true to us? What? Was Kossovo a US province….was Kuwait a USA state? Since when does protecting others in the world suddenly become a favor to the USA???? Please…this is just getting exasperating. So I guess also if you help us fight starvation in Africa it somehow is a favor to us….man that is just asinine.
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“Just as you did when "saving our butts" in WWI (laughable you didn't even arrive properly until the last year of war) and WWII (In Europe you didn't arrive until the 3rd year of war).”
First off we could of totally stayed out of both WW’s made treaties with Germany, Japan, etc. and sat comfortably on a continent that provides us the utmost of protection….heck we could of even joined them and took the UK as our own property as payment for their mistreatment of us during colonial times. This is very simple we did NOT need you….you NEEDED US! But the ungrateful Europeans won’t be falling over themselves in thanking us. Yeah we did bail europe's butt out of both wars and you can try to dismiss that as much as you like…furthermore not only did we militarily bail europe's butt out we also gave a HUGE junk of money to rebuild europe….have we ever been repaid…..of course not. Bunch of ingrates….maybe next time we should mind our own business and watch europe's demise. I know one thing if I was basically surrounded by Germany as UK was and then some other nation helped bail me out…I would be very grateful…very grateful.but I guess thankfulness is apparently only an American virtue. If you don’t think that USA was supporting Europe before our official entrance in WWII than you are kidding yourself….very badly at that. Did we have a personal interest in helping our allies….of course we did….was it the only reason we helped out…of course not.
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“ You needed the Europeans just as much as we needed you in the cold war so that was hardly america being generous! “
To claim you helped us in the cold war is lame….yeah you guys loved communism….you loved the USSR…in fact you would have been one of their freshly conquered territories if it wasn’t for the USA…hope europeons look good in red. So take your pick…your leader could have been from the USSR or Germany….I am sure you would of loved both….bunch of ingrates! How short sighted and ungrateful! Once again we save Europe's butt during the cold war and some how you turn it around and say we owe you….we could of agreed with the USSR and communists to split the world’s land in half…and guess what…it would have been so...nobody could of stopped the combined forces….that whole logic about helping us in the cold war would be funny if it wasn’t so horribly ironic. USA has been so incredibly giving and respectful of other nations freedom…we have spent untold amounts of lives to protect democracy…yet do we get a thanks…nope again only scorn. We gave to you because we respect democracy….both our own and others…so yeah call that selfish.
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Celfious
Promising
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From earth
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posted November 26, 2002 09:03 AM |
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He also abused his power's to bail out people from jail. He earned cash by bailing out drug lord's, hitmen, and the worst of our kind.
Bush let him take airforce one as a courtasy, and the clinton's swiped dishes, silverware, and other things.
The clintons are white trash.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 26, 2002 03:52 PM |
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Dear me someone does have a biased opinion of us! (which makes interesting your claim we are all biased against you).
Point 1: Russia joined WWII first and did equal damage to germany that you did, the claim that europe in some way was bailed out is fanciful given the fact that all nations helped to win WWII, something often missed by americans.
Point 2: Jesus I didn't know the context the "nazi like" was given in and asked why, I was not agreeing with it, just wanting to know what he meant by it. He may have been referring to something specific like i stated in which case that is guilty, but so is all western nations at some point. I was suggesting a reason why he might on an extremely basic level compare the 2 since I did not know that context. You could come up with any number of comparisons unless someone bothers to put forward the whole speech and assume the context as you did. You assume it's an overall comparison of the 2 people, when it is about tactics and NOT personality, and given tactics I found a comparison. As for anti american, you may wish to read the bit about the allies (of which our method of bombing made us more guilty) were also guilty so indeed i was more accusing All of those involved in WWII.
As for Kossovo NO-ONE else would have launched such an attack without america, that is important. Who is always the biggest supporter of america? Britain! Those actions could not have occured without american backing, and British backing, whilst not vital has always given a feeling of international co-operation. Who was the only ones offering millitary support in the wake of 9/11 which was an attack against YOU yet we put ourselves right onto the front line without even being asked and before ANYONE else? BRITAIN! Time and again we have stood beside you and time and again we have paid the cost alongside you with casualties. It is an insult to us to dismiss our constant support!
How long are we supposed to be thankful for? Do we simply waltz along agreeing without thought with america forever for your "bailing out" 60 years ago? I did not say we owed you but how good would america's situation be if the power and might of industrial western europe was turned to the use of the Russians? You needed us to be free of rule to secure yourselves! I'm not blaming you for that, perfectly normal response to secure your nation, but please, lets cut all this crap about you doing these things for humanitarian reasons.
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Wolfman
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posted November 27, 2002 03:45 AM |
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First off we could of totally stayed out of both WW’s made treaties with Germany, Japan, etc. and sat comfortably on a continent that provides us the utmost of protection….heck we could of even joined them and took the UK as our own property as payment for their mistreatment of us during colonial times.
I don't think so. Germany and Japan were under fascist government rule at that time. They were also imperialistic, something the U.S. didn't need to show the world. And we probably would have not taken GB in payment for mistreatment during colonial times, I think we already payed them back for that when we kicked British tushie in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812.
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This is very simple we did NOT need you….you NEEDED US! But the ungrateful Europeans won’t be falling over themselves in thanking us. Yeah we did bail europe's butt out of both wars and you can try to dismiss that as much as you like…furthermore not only did we militarily bail europe's butt out we also gave a HUGE junk of money to rebuild europe….have we ever been repaid…..of course not. Bunch of ingrates….maybe next time we should mind our own business and watch europe's demise. I know one thing if I was basically surrounded by Germany as UK was and then some other nation helped bail me out…I would be very grateful…very grateful.but I guess thankfulness is apparently only an American virtue.
I think that the need was mutual. Who would we trade with if Europe fell? Oh I know, I'm sure that that expert in diplomacy Hitler would have been glad to trade with the U.S., then when he got bored, watch out! He would stomp our butts like bugs.
It is true that we paid a lot of money to Europe to rebuild but I don’t think we will ever be paid back. Speaking of thankfulness, Thanksgiving is in 2 days.
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bort
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Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted November 27, 2002 06:42 AM |
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I think we already payed them back for that when we kicked British tushie in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812.
I've never considered having the White House burned down to be kicking tushie.
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privatehudson
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posted November 27, 2002 06:46 AM |
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To be fair you did batter our army at new orleans and dominate the waves in that war. 
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Wolfman
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posted November 28, 2002 06:10 AM |
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To be fair you did batter our army at new orleans and dominate the waves in that war.
Thanks, PH.
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I've never considered having the White House burned down to be kicking tushie.
They never burned it "down" and it wouldn't be called the White House if they didn't char it a little.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted November 28, 2002 08:05 AM |
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“ Point 1: Russia joined WWII first and did equal damage to germany that you did, the claim that europe in some way was bailed out”
I never meant that of course there were many allies/nations that helped end WWII. My point was:
1. that we were helping out before we were ever attacked
2. We could of easily decided to remain neutral at the beginning of the war or worse yet joined the axis like the soviets did (hey if we are the despots that so many try to make us out to be… it would have been a great time to own a lot more oil and land). Given so many people’s diabolical accusations against America it is ironic that for one of the worlds only world powers now and one of the worlds maybe top 3 world powers during WWII times that you aren’t more thankful that we were on the right side from the beginning.
As far as “saving your butts” we did that in fact. About 300,000 of us died from that war. Our only true conflict was with Japan after they attacked us….in which we lost about 50,000 in fighting them. So yeah we literally saved your butts…at least 250,000 more European lives would have been slain if we did not join against Germany (it is actually far more than that given that extra military from the USA killed many Germans that would have had their guns pointed straight at Europeans). If that isn’t a saving your butt I don’t know what is….literally our butts got killed to help save your literal butts. It was the right thing to do…and as past posts indicate I think we should of got our militarily more involved at an earlier stage….but the total lack of gratitude from Europe is truly appalling! We only get envy, jealously, resentment, and war crime allegations thrown at us today….despite the fact that after the war we also spent millions upon millions to help rebuild europe.
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“Jesus I didn't know the context the "Nazi like" was given in and asked why, I was not agreeing with it, just wanting to know what he meant by it.”
That is sad. To ever apply the word “Nazi” to anything a stand up democracy is doing is reprehensible….that is like saying that Hitler didn’t eat meat so all vegetarians are using “Hitler like tactics”. To make any analogy of Hitler/Nazis to any of the free countries is just wrong to the maximum. He is one of the worst war criminals in modern history. I would not tolerate it from anyone against any nation that is a free democracy (especially against a country such as USA that has given so much in personal life and money to help better the world). I am shocked by any free thinking individual who is not offended by the use of “Nazi like tactics” to apply to free people….it actually is not only a slam on the nation they are accusing but belittles the horrific crimes that Hitler committed against individuals and nations during WWII.
Britain is a valued ally. I have never dismissed their support. That will never be disputed. You of all people know how much I have praised Blair. But I do dismiss you equating the UK’s support in these various “peace” operations to the same level as the very real and personal threat of WWII for Europeans. There is no comparison….in one your very survival was at stake in another we were all joining together to help the oppressed who were not one of us. But to claim any of the “peace” interventions like Kosovo, Somalia, etc that the UK was doing something that the USA should thankful for is ridiculous. It wasn’t “our” problem to begin with, so each country assisted out of their own humanitarian values.
Now the Afghanistan thing is different…there we need to be thankful to the UK and other allies support as in a very technical manner it was the USA’s war (though in reality terrorism is a danger to all non islamic nations). Even so, comparing the purposeful murder of 3000 civilians on 9/11 is not comparable to Hitler’s targeting of military objectives, save his killing of Jews. Furthermore the loss of life for the ally support during the Afghan war and the amount of risk for the allies during that military liberation of Afghanistan was but a speck of dust compared to the risk the USA took for Europe in WWII.
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”How long are we supposed to be thankful for? Do we simply waltz along agreeing without thought with America forever for your "bailing out" 60 years ago?”
You are mixing up thankfulness with agreement. You can be thankful and disagree….but disagree as a friend and ally not as an enemy. Most of what I hear from Europeans is mindless and horrific accusations….there is no benefit of the doubt…there is no care…there is no honor…there is no respect…there is not a sense of propriety. No all we hear are irrational claims that are motives are subversive, war monger like, and of a war crime level. You call that disagreeing? I sure don’t….I call that bitterness, hatred, and irrational.
As far as who needs who…here is yet another powerful example. Who is the 6th strongest economy in the world? I will tell ya…one….just one of our 50 states…California. If California was an independent nation it would have the 6th strongest economy in the world! We have an abundance….we are incredibly powerful…yet we use that power to aid the world…we don’t use it to be dictators like the other world powers in the past have (USSR, Germany, etc.). You would think that fact alone would elicit an immense amount of respect from the rest of the world….here we could crush many nations at our whim like other tyrant nations have…but we don’t…we haven’t….yet where is the love
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“I don't think so. Germany and Japan were under fascist government rule at that time.”
My point was…we could of decided to be imperialist….we could have been “evil” but we chose not to…and in the end we sacrificed hundreds of thousands of our lives to help out Europe. But the way we get treated by Europe today it is almost as if they make us out to be as imperialistic as their worst nightmares.
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“I think that the need was mutual. Who would we trade with if Europe fell?”
Again my point was that if we are as “evil” as some in europe make us out to be…we could of made a treaty with Germany and split europe…so who would need to trade with them…we would own them. IN this hypothetical…If Hitler came after us after the treaty….it would most likely have been his end as it was when he broke his non- aggression pact with Russia. Remember Germany was not well off financially they were going to be in financial ruins that is one reason they had to continually conquer…so they could afford to stay afloat.
Well with having that vent….hope you all have a great thanksgiving…we have much to be thankful for….we are even thankful for the UK;P
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Wolfman
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posted November 28, 2002 03:55 PM |
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“I don't think so. Germany and Japan were under fascist government rule at that time.”
My point was…we could of decided to be imperialist….we could have been “evil” but we chose not to…and in the end we sacrificed hundreds of thousands of our lives to help out Europe. But the way we get treated by Europe today it is almost as if they make us out to be as imperialistic as their worst nightmares.
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“I think that the need was mutual. Who would we trade with if Europe fell?”
Again my point was that if we are as “evil” as some in europe make us out to be…we could of made a treaty with Germany and split europe…so who would need to trade with them…we would own them. IN this hypothetical…If Hitler came after us after the treaty….it would most likely have been his end as it was when he broke his non- aggression pact with Russia. Remember Germany was not well off financially they were going to be in financial ruins that is one reason they had to continually conquer…so they could afford to stay afloat.
Ok, that's better. Why does everyone hate us so much?
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privatehudson
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posted November 28, 2002 05:16 PM |
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Dargon have you even bothered to read the context that the speech containing that phrase was made in or are we just assuming that he meant it as an evil slur. For all we know he's being taken way out of context.
And The british have been accused of war crimes, a new german book just out compares the deaths caused by the allied (and specifically the british) bombing campaign of WWII to hitler's actions and accuses directly Churchill of warcrimes. Now this annoys me to some extent and doesn't to others. You answer accusations like that with logical arguments, IE that the bombing was to destroy germany's war industry (though this is in some bombing sorties to say the least questionable), and had geniuine objectives other than the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.
I agree it's cruel and unfair, but lets be fair and see the context then argue the merits (however few these may be) or not of that comparison.
Oh and BTW we lost 250,000 people in WWII, we paid our price also for a war that in 1940 we could have just sat out and recovered from.
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Wolfman
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posted November 29, 2002 01:32 AM |
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Now you two have to kiss and make-up.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted November 29, 2002 09:46 AM |
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“Dargon have you even bothered to read the context that the speech containing that phrase was made in or are we just assuming that he meant it as an evil slur. For all we know he's being taken way out of context. “
First I got to say the internet is kinda scary…I was searching for the speech about “Nazi like tactics” on Google (search was “bush & “Nazi like tactics””)…and guess what was the 4th hit….lol my post in HC….that is kinda freaky
Here is the article which makes it pretty clear found on the BBC:
“The White House has condemned comments by German Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin likening US President George W Bush's political methods over Iraq to those of Adolf Hitler.
"This statement by the justice minister is outrageous and inexplicable," Mr Bush spokesman Ari Fleischer told reporters.
The regional Schwaebisches Tagblatt newspaper quoted Ms Daeubler-Gmelin, as saying: "Bush wants to divert attention from his domestic problems. It's a classic tactic. It's one that Hitler used."
Throughout the current election campaign in Germany, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has defied America by opposing US military action against Iraq.
The stance has proved popular with German voters.
Germany's opposition has demanded the resignation of the minister.
Michael Glos, head of the conservative Christian Social Union's parliamentary group, said she "must leave the government immediately and should also have nothing to do with the next parliament".
The justice ministry called the report "absurd" and insisted Ms Daeubler-Gmelin had not compared Mr Bush to Hitler, but did not deny outright that she had made the remark at a rally this week ahead of Sunday's election. “
So as you can see that was completely wrong and totally politically motivated. What a horrific accusation that someone in Germany’s highest government could make about Bush! That type of comparison should be staunchly criticized and not tolerated by all free people.
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“And The british have been accused of war crimes, a new german book just out”
I am not saying that no one else has had these allegations made…of course they have. But these war crime allegations are being thrown at us by Europeans…people who are suppose to be our allies. Furthermore they are being lobbed at us before we have even begun a military intervention of regime change. Talk about wrong…that is just horrendous to allege we are moving towards regime change for all sorts of war crime type allegations.
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“Oh and BTW we lost 250,000 people in WWII, we paid our price also for a war that in 1940 we could have just sat out and recovered from. “
From my understanding you actually lost more than that….between 300-350 thousand. Also the UK does have my respect. From my knowledge of history…Hitler actually admired the UK and desperately wanted them as his allies…but after they refused he condemned them as his enemy. So how would you like it if France now made all sorts of war crime allegations against the UK for their support of regime change in Iraq….particularly since you helped save their butts in WWII. Not only are the allegations evil….they also show a total lack of historical foundation as there is not a semblance of respect or gratitude.
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Wolfman
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posted November 29, 2002 10:31 PM |
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So much for kissing and making up.
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privatehudson
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posted November 29, 2002 11:03 PM |
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First I did not say I tolerated it, I wanted to hear the context and actual content of the speech and not hear an quote which may or may not have been accurate.
The figure was I think 350,000 British and commenwealth troops, the 100,000 coming from the support of nations such as Canada, South Africa, New Zealand and Australia to name but a few. And the french do disrespect us despite our help in their liberation. Allow me to compare two different situations.
For America - The french have handed rent free for as long as is felt necessary the land above the cliffs at Omaha Beach for a Cemetary for the Americans who died in Normandy. This to me is fine and proper, but compare this to the following.
For Britain - A bridge (Pegasus Bridge, the one in a Bridge Too Far) which was one of the 1st to be captured during the night of 6/7 June and one which cost the lives of a number of british soilders to take and hold. Six weeks before the anniversary of D-Day the bridge was removed for reasons of excess traffic, despite the wish of D-Day veterans to cross the bridge once more on the anniversary.
That's just one example, true since then they have rebuilt the museum and placed the old bridge alongside the museum, less than 200 yards from the original spot, but to remove it within 6 weeks...... well that says it all for many Veterans. Some french historians (and probably De-Gaulle himself given his post war animosity towards the British) also considered the british actions in sinking french naval ships during 1942 to be a war crime.
I'm not saying that individual french people don't show gratitude, they do in many ways, but as a nation they have forgotten often the price we paid to liberate them in their pride and their humiliation at being defeated in the 1st place.
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Wolfman
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posted November 30, 2002 06:13 AM |
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Yes that is so, but England/Britan have been "fighting" for centuries.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2002 07:32 AM |
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So it would seem we agree....gratitude is a moral obligation.
Gratitude of course does not of course mean always agreeing, but there should be a semblance of respect and benefit of the doubt....not atrocious, unjustified, outrageous and divisive allegations or actions.
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privatehudson
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posted November 30, 2002 11:42 AM |
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Yes that is so, but England/Britan have been "fighting" for centuries.
Methinks you mean france somehow? Last I checked we did NOT fight ourselves, unless you mean the rest of britain.
My point though being that america is not the only nation to suffer ingratitude or attacks on their actions, both in the past and present, which sometimes has been alleged here. Respect though is different from undying servitude in times thereafter. I think a lot (not the german ladies comments) of the criticism comes simply because others see the world differently from you. They do not consider the man a threat, or want to know why now, or why Iraq over other nations. Because they are not americans and therefore not seeing the world the same way or not considering the arguments valid to them they fail to see why and consider other reasons.
What you see as undeserving questioning and accusations is what they see as the truth because of their different outlook and expectations of the world and specifically america. Sooner or later you have to figure out these questions and accusations will always happen, all you can do is give your side of the story. It does not mean these questions are invalid or should not be asked because to these people they are not invalid. As for benefit of the doubt, that should never exist to my mind for anyone. Countries actions should be judged and supported/argued against on the merits of the action, and NOT on what that nation did 50 or 60 years ago.
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Wolfman
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posted November 30, 2002 02:16 PM |
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Yes, I ment England/Britain and France have been fighting.
Many people in the U.S. are not watching the news and don't care what is going on in the world. On 9/11 my class started cheering when they heard what happened. I just looked at them as if they were crazy. They probably didn't even know the Pentagon existed. They didn't know what was going on.
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privatehudson
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posted November 30, 2002 03:33 PM |
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Well you were probably all waiting for bruce willis to stop the plane at the last minute with a spectacular manouver.......
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Wolfman
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posted November 30, 2002 06:25 PM |
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Not me, I think some were waiting for Harrison Ford to do it.
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