|
| Thread: "Blocked" on randoms. | |
|
Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
|
posted December 16, 2002 01:33 AM |
|
|
How blocked does a player have to be on a random map, to be considered "blocked" and have the game restarted?
In past seasons, Iīve often felt bad about games that were restarted for this reason:
In Season 3, a later Top 5 ToH player talked me into a restart (130%, he was Castle), because he was "blocked" - by a pack of archers and a horde of Skeletons, as the save showed me. My perfect start (Gunnar + Boots and Harpies prebuilt) was wasted, the next map was terrible for me and I lost.
I asked him:"Why didnīt you just build your own Archers, upgrade to Marksmen and attack?" His answer:"This would have messed up my build order."
One day in Season 4, Iīve spent an afternoon and an evening restarting 8 games - my opponent was always blocked. When I checked the saves later, I found that there hardly was a block situation that could not have easily been solved. Two times there even was a footway around the blocking stack (!). I must add that the player Iīm talking about is one of the most respected in ToH, a very fair and pleasant person.
Today I accepted two restarts that were much less extreme, but also from positions where I would never have considered to be blocked. My opponent - not only a strong and experienced, but also a very fair ToH player - requested those restarts because there were lots of Grand Elves guarding the road out of his territory in both games (in one of them there was also a pack of Magi on the other road). He was Castle, difficulty was 160%. I admit that such a roadguard isnīt an easy walk, but in my very humble opinion it should be possible to remove it by day 8 at the latest. (In one of these games, I also would have had to wait for day 8, in order to fight my pack-of-Pitlords-block).
My personal opinion: To be blocked enough for a restart, there needs to be a completely hopeless situation with no possible perspective of solving it.
What do you think about it? How much blocked does it require to be "blocked"? Is it possible to make a definition that doesnīt create double standards?
____________
|
|
ironmlh
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 03:00 AM |
|
|
Interesting
Quote:
How blocked does a player have to be on a random map, to be considered "blocked" and have the game restarted??
I will not request a restart unless blocked by troops that no one could expect to break thru...early week 2 at a minimum,and even then...if you have lots of other area to explore, explore it first...Just because your road is blocked doesnt not mean a restart if you have other area to explore(this has happened to me on more than one occasion, opp says he is blocked by...xxx troops so i check save later only to find a huge area unexplored and his road is the only thing blocked..
I dont play them again.
Just today...i was blocked by lots of beholders..which is usually an early week 2 fight...but i had no ore except for one mine and zero pile, i was castle(160%)....needless to say it turned into a week 3 fight before i could break thru...and i did not even consider asking for a restart...i think some players fear losing too many troops in a break thru battle they use that too `restart'. That, or the lack of big time production week 1. players like that i will not play more than once.
Quote:
In Season 3, a later Top 5 ToH player talked me into a restart (130%, he was Castle), because he was "blocked" - by a pack of archers and a horde of Skeletons, as the save showed me. ?
That is by NO means blocked..that player is weak. I take both those fights day 1 and not even blink any day.
Quote:
My perfect start (Gunnar + Boots and Harpies prebuilt) was wasted, the next map was terrible for me and I lost.
I asked him:"Why didnīt you just build your own Archers, upgrade to Marksmen and attack?" His answer:"This would have messed up my build order." .
Messed up my build order. LMAO randoms are not set maps..you build what you can...Period.
Quote:
My personal opinion: To be blocked enough for a restart, there needs to be a completely hopeless situation with no possible perspective of solving it.
Agreed....blocked is blocked...Blocked because a player is too wimpy to deal with the consequences of having to change his building order...is a joke
Quote:
What do you think about it? How much blocked does it require to be "blocked"? Is it possible to make a definition that doesnīt create double standards?
Hard to say Lews..but you and i are on the same page.. i know many others that are too. But also..many that are on the other side of the fence so to speak.
So, i guess its just a matter of knowing your opponent and limiting the trouble of having to restart due to lame blockers.
____________
"Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings"
|
|
Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 03:03 AM |
|
|
Basically if you are blocked by creatures then you should play it off orless those creatures can beat your whole army easilly, & no where else to go.
If there is a wide variety of an area to explore then you can probally do those thangs first before tackling on those creatures.
It's only common sense if you can beat blocked in creatures or not.
Like if you are blocked by a pack of unis then you probally wont beat them until week 2 but by then when you do beat them your oponent has the upper hand already.
If a player says he is blocked, make sure you find out how he is blocked by asking the player.
No roads should be an automatic restart since that means no way out 95% of the time.
The hardest restart is being blocked by a circular Mountain.
Sometimes it can take more then 1 week to find out a whole mountain range is blocking your whole area.
Usually when I play as long as my oponent communicates which I believe is important, then we can have a restart if it is legitamate.
I know there are more reasons of a restart like mines for example.
If a player can not find thier wood or ore mines they want a restart.
Most great random players I know will play without them if they have too.
There are plenty of lv 1 creatures guarding wood & ore piles.
Usuallt on most templates you are pretty resourceful but not all the time.
I think it depends on the circumstances, like sometimes it can take more then 5 days to find your mines, but then again they want a restart.
Thats where you need to communicate with your oponent..
Basically everyone should have a week1 restart but they have to have a good reason.
____________
Dreaming of a Better World
|
|
midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 05:18 AM |
|
|
the best one is: my ore mine is blocked by terrain so i cant get to it.
hmmm, try going around the back of town to get there... Only ever seen terrain cut off a mine once in years of playing randoms. Blocked by big stacks? yes. Blocked by terrain? look again.
____________
|
|
tewilligar
Famous Hero
Just another willigar
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 10:56 AM |
|
|
Quote:
the best one is: my ore mine is blocked by terrain so i cant get to it.
hmmm, try going around the back of town to get there... Only ever seen terrain cut off a mine once in years of playing randoms. Blocked by big stacks? yes. Blocked by terrain? look again.
yeah I agree that's pretty rare.I've seen it twice,and the one time i took a second fort on day 3 with mines there so it ended up being playable anyways.
____________
ZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz
|
|
haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 12:43 PM |
|
|
well, as long as I still can explore / fight something week 1, I wouldn't consider myself blocked. On the other side, if all I can do is just hit end turn button for 3 days and waiting for week 2 to come, I would call that "blocked". Considering that I will lose most of my week 2 troops (those few I can afford to buy after some turns of doing nothing), I don't think there's any chance to win against a somewhat skilled player (only by getting extremely lucky). Depending on how well I know the person I play, I would either ask for a restart or surrender the game. From what I've been reading here so far, there are least 2 players I would never ask for a restart. Then again, since I recently only play people I know to be enjoyable, that won't happen most likely anyways 
|
|
maximus
Famous Hero
Bronzed God
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 01:21 PM |
|
|
the games should be disputed and set to HC
yes it is surprising to find more experienced players and in some cases Vets that cant find there wood or ore or that have a unbeatable block and then presure less experienced players into a restart!!!
had this at least 3 times in past month, usually about day 6 or 7 just when i get 2nd town!
well, u work it out !!!!
____________
Frost. Sometimes it makes the blade stick !
|
|
madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 01:58 PM |
|
|
According to me there are only 2 reasons for a requested restart: "block" and "impossible wood/ore"
Haile's description of "block" is positively the same as mine. You have not a single hex to move becuz of that horde of minotaurs guarding the hive? restart granted. You have not a single hex to move becuz of that lots of unicorns guarding the pandora? restart granted. Your road is blocked by lots of elves, but you have access to an area without road, you have access to 3 crypts? game cancelled , gl to you finding a new opponent.
I, too, have been cheated like many of the ppl who requested a restart which ruined my good start. I dont care about giving restarts or loading autos . What pisses me off is lies. If you don't like the map or your start, just say it straight.
In cases I am blocked, I tell it to my opponent without requesting anything. According to his reaction, I decide what to do. Fortunately, nearly in all of the cases the reaction I got was "lets restart-back to the room" in a positive way. But, I remember conceding for a similar reason about 2 seasons ago. And of course, I do not play such players and liars again.
What is more sad is I see someone who cheated me into a restart is whining in this thread because of the same reason. lol.
____________
|
|
Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
|
posted December 16, 2002 06:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Today I accepted two restarts that were much less extreme, but also from positions where I would never have considered to be blocked. My opponent - not only a strong and experienced, but also a very fair ToH player - requested those restarts because there were lots of Grand Elves guarding the road out of his territory in both games (in one of them there was also a pack of Magi on the other road). He was Castle, difficulty was 160%. I admit that such a roadguard isnīt an easy walk, but in my very humble opinion it should be possible to remove it by day 8 at the latest. (In one of these games, I also would have had to wait for day 8, in order to fight my pack-of-Pitlords-block).
Ive heard that the blocks of this very very experienced, fair and as beautiful and as admirable  player, werent solely blocking the road...these roadblocks were guarding underground doors. He was blocked form day one on and the area was without any other resources except 2 medusa stores.
So u might fight thru one of these blocks on week 2 (opponent suggested to get haste to erase the easy chicks lots grandelfes with his 40 pike and 7 archers)(btw i think even with haste this cute pikes wont even get over the middle of fight screen)...but what after this?...he would only find another as tough block on the other side of underground door..(well he might have 5 pikes left and with some more skill he wouldve been able to kill even behemots). Oh wait he couldve wait another week..yeah thats better...otherwise he wouldve lost his honor completely........
...btw..instead of whining he shouldve waited 4 weeks to take out this heavy resource giving medusa stores...well i wouldve put him on my internal "no-games-list".
For me personally i couldnt care less...if someone wants a restart within the first 3 days no matter why ...MY OPPONENT WOULD GET A RESTART ANYTIME.
What are other players supposed to do!?...forcing opponent to report a loss (like kivals once tried to do with me..one reason more not to play newbies)... or forcing opponents to play a game for 3 hours without even having a chance to win it and being pure bored during it??
Man u pointhuggers will never have as good games as i do...win or lose..a nice fair game makes tons of more fun then ull ever have in all of your games.
Just my 2 Dollars
Xarfax1
|
|
Andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 07:09 PM |
|
|
In my oppinion restart situations are:
- if you cant build anything coz either ore and wood mine is blocked by unbeatable monsters and you dont have enough piles of ore/wood to cover that
- of course if theres something like a horde mino kings on your only way to go
I would like to explain a bit further how i rate the "i cant build" situation:
I will take the marksmen situation, lets say you can only build them and swordsmen, for all else you dont have the stuff.
Your block is something like a pack cyklopses or lots magi, now of course you could wait for end week2 or day1 week3 until you are able to beat them...but this isnt what i call a fun game.
Clear restart situation, you cant expect the opponent to do almost nothing for 2 weeks imo.
Now there are situations where i get toally mad if someone wants a restart, that is:
- My ore is blocked, i cant get there, restart  ((
than you look in save and see he has 30 ore or piles around that are enuf easy ------> player goes to no-play-list, total whiner.
- my road is blocked, restart!!!
You look, and a 2 day walk around it would open a new land for him --------> hi no play-list
- in general when something silly blocks like lot of wights, something a good tactican can easy defeat week1 no matter what he has.
Someone who wants a restart than isnt worth the time playing too.
To sum if up: if someone wants a restart coz he would sit there more than a week really doing nothing im 100% ok with that, or if his situation is hopeless.
What sux is the whiners that cant accept a average start or just lie about their situation.
What equally sux are players that want you to play exactly this situation..."hey, ok you do nothing 2 weeks but its possible!!!" - i will go report my loss and once again hello no-play list.
|
|
ironmlh
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 09:15 PM |
|
|
Restarts
We all have our criteria for restarts and this is usually not a problem in 80% of the cases. At least for me i try to play people i know and we have an `understanding' of what necessitates a restart.
Most `problems' occur when playing unknown players, these players either dont have an equal undestanding of what is required to restart.
____________
"Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings"
|
|
bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
|
|
posted December 16, 2002 10:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
No roads should be an automatic restart since that means no way out 95% of the time.
>>> correction: 100% of the time.
>>>
In my oppinion restart situations are:
1 - if you cant build anything coz either ore and wood mine is blocked by unbeatable monsters and you dont have enough piles of ore/wood to cover that
2 - of course if theres something like a horde mino kings on your only way to go
>>>> I agree with 1 but not with 2. You canīt excpect to go anywhere else than your ore and wood mine. You canīt get a 2nd town? Cool, then u play with one. All u can expect is wood and ore.
>>>
Your block is something like a pack cyklopses or lots magi, now of course you could wait for end week2 or day1 week3 until you are able to beat them...but this isnt what i call a fun game.
>>>> It might not be fun, but sometimes you donīt get everything you want. Playing a random map is, in fact, just that.
>>>>
I usually say restart if meet week 1, or no wood ore. Then I usually give restarts, *but* there should be a reason. When someone tries to abuse restarts, I just say that I donīt have time for a new game sorry.
Most ppl know when you should restart. (great!)
Some ppl want restarts when they get a bad draw. (sux!)
And if you *really* want to remove restarts, just set starting sector to have 1 mine of each type and no guards. Peace of cake! 
If you want to limit restarts, set low treasure on the starting zones (booooring).
You can even include 2 (two) of each ore and wood, to increase the likelyhood of getting at least one of these.
|
|
notmytohhandle
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 17, 2002 04:12 PM |
|
|
HI.
I would grant anyone a restart for any reason they like, if the person just asks nicely, even if block is in my mind fairly easy to beat. What i cant stand tho is players who abuse this ruls (as andi said) and claim to have ore mine blocked or no way out without fighting lots of lvl3 etc, and after checking u realize they had 15 grand elves in army and faced a block of lots of golems.. and a stock of 40 ore allrdy.
strict rules on restarts can be hard to set, as there are so many factors involved.
I know some players that will go to ridiculous extremes just to try and make a fair interesting game, such as me and tim, when we played alot,we even compared starting armies etc and if to big advatange for any1 we would restart (3 stack shakti almost never allowed) This however takes alot of patience in restarting... and today i rarely seem to be that patient anymore.
But letting some1 wait for a week to do anything is lame.
And even worse, to abuse restart rules to make sure u get castle and angels week 1 is a joke.
/Archie
|
|
Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted December 17, 2002 06:03 PM |
|
|
Xarfax, just to make sure that I understand you correctly: I am a point-hugger, because I use to play on in difficult starting positions? I fail to understand that logic.
I just loaded the second one of those restart games - seriously, I had no idea whether my opinion about an unnecessary restart was right or wrong. So I just played it and broke through the Elves on day 5. On the other side there were lots of Wights, not that much of a problem IMO.
I havenīt started this thread to blame anyone of restart cheating (although some people do use restarts for winning, like the one in the first example I mentioned). My intention was to hear opinions about it and maybe start a discussion.
Yes, I usually grant restarts by simply request, too. But this doesnīt mean that I always enjoy it. When I have a starting position that I like (doesnīt always have to be an objectively good start), I somewhat dig into it, develop ideas about how to play, "identify myself" with it. If my opponentīs game is unplayable, of course I accept a restart. But Iīm disappointed if he doesnīt try and make use of what he has first. Stacks of wandering monsters arenīt always meant to be free experience points. If he tries and gets his hero killed because the lots is 49 or the horde is 97, then Iīll be the first one to offer him a restart.
____________
|
|
notmytohhandle
Known Hero
|
|
posted December 17, 2002 08:29 PM |
|
|
sometimes i think, well its only maybe 3-4 days wait .. np i can take down the hobgoblins mean while and then come back again to fight block day 1...
then i realize that could well be a 1/3 or 1/4 or the entire game lenght.
thats a good reason to grant any player a restart i think. Since i agree with haile, its very hard to beat a skilled player when only playing 3/4 of what he is playing.
But i also agree with lews, it really is fun to make do of what u got.
damn i dont know what to do
/Archie
|
|
Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
|
|
posted December 18, 2002 07:30 PM |
|
|
Hi Lews,
u got me wrong..i didnt meant u as an example of a pointhugger...unfortunately my english isnt good enough sometimes to express the right way.
I meant the players that want to force someone to wether play on or report lose if he is in a bad or unsolvable position like heavy blocks.
Xarfax1
|
|
bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
|
|
posted December 19, 2002 03:48 PM |
|
|
If I get my wood and ore and have a block of horde of grand elves on the road out, and you find 2 or 3 towns and a level 7 dwelling, that is NOT reason for a restart.
Cool for you that you found more towns, but if you want a restart just because you cant find a 2nd town week 1 or 2 then I would say no. Randoms dont work that way, if you want that you should play HG3 instead, or a custom template.
Restarts are to get ore and wood. Other than that, itīs up to the player that didnīt ask for the restart.
|
| |
|
|
