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| Thread: INTERVIEW WITH THE VAMPIRE OF RANDOMLAND |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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kerberos_gr
Hired Hero
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posted January 27, 2003 01:17 AM |
bonus applied. |
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Interview with thevampire
Hello guys
I think that we can all agree that one of the best things that happened during the last year (2002)concerning heroes 3 gaming (besides of course the release of heroes 4 LMAO  ,its the discoverie of the new rmg file and the production of new random templates
.In my opinion its the only thing (besides WOG) that can prolonge the life of our favorite game,in one condition ,that more people begin to understand how the rmg file works and start to produce good random templates.
.Untill now ,only few people managed to create decent rmg templates (haile,bjorn ,motor etc),and only one at least as far as i am concerned ,is the grand master of the rmg files and thats the vampire aka MIDNIGHT  .
.In order to change that , midnight and me,decided to post this interview ,hoping that many more players will be able to create new exciting templates and give new life to homm3.
.If you have any questions i suppose the vampire will appear from time to time in order to share his knowledge with us .
.P.S. a)Midnight during this interview ,is using as an "example template" the PANIC template,so in order to understand better what we are talking about ,you can download the PANIC template from here http://www.toheroes.com/myths/maps/new/rmg.htm .
b)also ,in order to view and especially to MODIFY any rmg's template you will have to use the TEXTEDIT program ,if you dont have it download it from here ttp://www.strategyplanet.com/homm/bastards/randoms/randoms.html
C)Midnight is analysing the PANIC template column by column,so he starts from column one where the NAME of the template is written.
D)In case you dont know much about templates,please keep in mind that the rmg file is like a table, WHERE EACH ROW IN THE THE 4th COLUMN (ZONE ID)(describing the number of the available areas in the map) CORRESPONDS (OR BETTER IS DEFINED FROM ALL THE FOLLOWING COLLUMNS) ,so for example
the first row in the 4th column has the number 1,so its the number 1 zone(area) where: (5th column)a human (red player) starts,(6th column)a computer player cannot start,(9th column)the size of number 1 area is 18(relative value)etc.
In order to help a little ,i post this link (thanks bjorn  ) of the PANIC template(opened with the TEXT EDITOR),so while you are reading the interview you can look simoultaneously(in a new window) at the template and understand exactly what we are talking about
[url]http://m1.861.telia.com/~u86112638/templates.htm[/url]
(Enter)> Midni9ht
(Enter)> kerberos_gr
Midni9ht> i'll start on column 1
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> dont get rows (HORIZONTAL LINES) and columns(VERTICAL LINES) confused
Midni9ht> first 3 rows r header
Midni9ht> now we start with column 1
Midni9ht> NAME
Midni9ht> just description
Midni9ht> it appears when u look at ur template
Midni9ht> when in game
Midni9ht> so i sometimes sneak a rule in there, like ban fly/dd
Midni9ht> if i design a map with big blocks
Midni9ht> now put date of template release too
Midni9ht> so know which version
Midni9ht> column 2 - MINIMUM SIZE
kerberos_gr> yes
Midni9ht> smallest map size u can generate
Midni9ht> in this case 9 = L no under
Midni9ht> so cant make M/under
Midni9ht> like in an earlier version
Midni9ht> 8 = M/under
Midni9ht> column 3 is MAXIMUM SIZE
Midni9ht> of map
Midni9ht> in this case 18 means L/under
Midni9ht> interestingly 16 is XL no under
Midni9ht> so the generator thinks L/under is bigger than XL none
Midni9ht> which suits me fine, since most of my templates i dont want underground
kerberos_gr> i see
Midni9ht> so usually i say minimum 9, max 16
Midni9ht> but Panic is good with under
Midni9ht> so i include L/under
Midni9ht> column 4 - ZONE
kerberos_gr> tell me ,is it possible for panic to be xl with under?
kerberos_gr> i think its 32
kerberos_gr> ?
Midni9ht> u can change the number of max size to 32
Midni9ht> if u like, but i didnt make the map for that size
Midni9ht> prolly overloaded with resources and long roads
Midni9ht> Panic is made for launching sneak attacks
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> when u make a template
Midni9ht> u start with the zones
Midni9ht> this is an area on template
Midni9ht> that u can set values of items in it
Midni9ht> u can make one zone rich, another poor
Midni9ht> u can also set guards between them
Midni9ht> but that is later on
Midni9ht> initially u just define the zone number
Midni9ht> so u can refer to it later
Midni9ht> and give it its own row
Midni9ht> of values
Midni9ht> zone is just an area on a map
Midni9ht> nothing fancy
Midni9ht> or tricky
Midni9ht> column: HUMAN START
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> This is where u say how many players u can allow
Midni9ht> and which zones (areas on map) u want them to start in
Midni9ht> in this case, zone 1 and zone 2 are the starting areas
Midni9ht> cuz i put an "x" in the column
kerberos_gr> yes ,i understand
kerberos_gr> question
Midni9ht> column: COMPUTER START
Midni9ht> i dont use it
kerberos_gr> if i wanted to create a game with 4 playersw ,2 humans ,and 2 comps
Midni9ht> would use it if u want to make a 7 lakes style map
Midni9ht> where u have comps running around
kerberos_gr> i would have add 2 x in the computer start area
Midni9ht> but havent used that in my design yet
Midni9ht> yes
kerberos_gr> ok
kerberos_gr> great
kerberos_gr> one remark
Midni9ht> treasure areas r just everything else
kerberos_gr> wait
Midni9ht> column: TREASURE
Midni9ht> these will not have any players in them
Midni9ht> this is for zones that dont have a player
Midni9ht> which is most of them
Midni9ht> column: JUNCTION
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> this allows skinny areas
Midni9ht> that connect to different zones
kerberos_gr> what do you mean?
kerberos_gr> skinny?
Midni9ht> usually looks crappy
kerberos_gr> lol ok
Midni9ht> will have a road
Midni9ht> and a few hexes either side
Midni9ht> I've never found a good use for it yet
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> column: BASE SIZE
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> seems to be the relative sizes of zones
kerberos_gr> relative?
Midni9ht> seems to be
kerberos_gr> you mean in comparisson with the others?
Midni9ht> yes
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> so if one 2x as big
Midni9ht> then zone realestate is bigger
kerberos_gr> very interesting )
Midni9ht> tho it can fluctuate a lot
Midni9ht> need to fiddle with it to get it right
Midni9ht> i usually make the start zones bigger than the others
Midni9ht> cuz if u start in a tiny area, ur dead usually
kerberos_gr> yes yes ,i understand why
Midni9ht> unless an open template like ring
Midni9ht> Column: MINIMUM HUMAN POSITIONS
Midni9ht> MAXIMUM HUMAN POSITIONS
Midni9ht> MINIMUM TOTAL POSITIONS
Midni9ht> MAXIMUM TOTAL POSITIONS
kerberos_gr> what does these columns stand for?
Midni9ht> good question
Midni9ht> they all relate to each other
kerberos_gr> ?
Midni9ht> basically if they dont hold true, that zone will disappear
Midni9ht> is mainly for 3do templates
Midni9ht> that r made for 8 players
kerberos_gr> so its pretty useless
Midni9ht> yes, but if u get it wrong ur template will die
Midni9ht> MINIMUM HUMAN POSITIONS
kerberos_gr> then its not!!!!!
Midni9ht> make it 1
kerberos_gr> hehe
Midni9ht> means 1 person can play the computer
Midni9ht> MAXIMUM HUMAN POSITIONS
Midni9ht> on Panic it is a 2 player template
Midni9ht> so if person making map decides they want 4 player
Midni9ht> Panic will never appear
kerberos_gr> oh
Midni9ht> cuz all the zones only allow 2 maximum
Midni9ht> on Vortex i allow 4 players maximum
kerberos_gr> wait
kerberos_gr> if we put 4 in only one zone ,and the rest is 2 what will happen?
Midni9ht> and 3 player minimum
kerberos_gr> i am talking about max position column
Midni9ht> they obey different rules
Midni9ht> each zone has its own rules
Midni9ht> was done by 3do
Midni9ht> to allow a template to adapt to more players
Midni9ht> gets complicated tho
Midni9ht> i just make the max/min the same for all zones
Midni9ht> so i either get all of them or none of them
kerberos_gr> so if
Midni9ht> u gotta do that for the connections too
kerberos_gr> its a 2vs2 ,you put 4 to everything?
Midni9ht> depends
Midni9ht> if u wanna allow a 1v1 on that same template
kerberos_gr> yes?
Midni9ht> then u might make minumum 2 max 4
kerberos_gr> ok
kerberos_gr> i will always do that
kerberos_gr> 2 for minimum ,and 4 for maximum
Midni9ht> i made Vortex min 3
Midni9ht> cuz it is not a good 1v1 template
Midni9ht> many better templates for that
kerberos_gr> and if its a 1vs1 i ll put 2 for minimum and 2 for maximum
Midni9ht> anyway, lets move on
kerberos_gr> no wait
kerberos_gr> i have to understand that
Midni9ht> but if u want to play the computer
Midni9ht> then u need min human positions 1
kerberos_gr> yes ,i know you cant
Midni9ht> but min total positions 2
kerberos_gr> but who wants to play against the pc?nobody i guess
kerberos_gr> ok i got it )
Midni9ht> cuz 1 human + 1 comp = 2
kerberos_gr> yes
kerberos_gr> ok i got it
kerberos_gr> last question
kerberos_gr> why we have to put the values (2 or 4) to every zone?
Midni9ht> i explained it
kerberos_gr> i mean , all the players start in one particular zone
kerberos_gr> then you just enter the other zones when you kill the guards
Midni9ht> the restrictions allow the # of zones to be variable
Midni9ht> depending on the # of players
Midni9ht> u might have some zones that only appear when u got 8 players
Midni9ht> some that only appear when u got 4
Midni9ht> ring is like this
Midni9ht> with 2 player u only get 3 zones
Midni9ht> or is it 4 zones
Midni9ht> i forget
Midni9ht> but most of them disappear
kerberos_gr> i see
Midni9ht> i dont design my template that way
kerberos_gr> very very interesting
Midni9ht> i want a specific layout
Midni9ht> for specific # of players
Midni9ht> since 95% of toh games r 1v1
Midni9ht> Column: OWNERSHIP
Midni9ht> 1=red
Midni9ht> 2=blue
Midni9ht> etc
Midni9ht> this determines what colours get what zones
Midni9ht> in this, zone 1 is red
Midni9ht> zone 2 is blue
Midni9ht> but i could make any zone be red
Midni9ht> by putting ownership=1
kerberos_gr> ok
kerberos_gr> tell me
kerberos_gr> if you put 2 1s in 2 different zones ,what happens?
Midni9ht> no idea
kerberos_gr> red get 2 castles?
Midni9ht> maybe
kerberos_gr> hmm ok
Midni9ht> i'm guessing it would
Midni9ht> column: MINIMUM TOWNS
Midni9ht> minimum unforted towns in that zone
Midni9ht> if the player has that zone
Midni9ht> then he will have it from day 1
Midni9ht> column: MINIMUM CASTLES
Midni9ht> same idea, but for forted towns
kerberos_gr> if its in a different zone?
Midni9ht> i dont do that
Midni9ht> column: TOWN DENSITY
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> same idea, but instead of a specific # of towns, it is random
Midni9ht> but the higher the town density, the more u will get
kerberos_gr> can you explain a bit more that
Midni9ht> i can have a zone that one map will have 4 towns
Midni9ht> another time 5 towns
Midni9ht> another time 3 towns
Midni9ht> if i increase the density from 3 to 8 for example
Midni9ht> i will get more towns
kerberos_gr> when you want the red player to start with 2 towns?
Midni9ht> but still random
kerberos_gr> you put minimum to 2?
Midni9ht> sure
kerberos_gr> what about town density?
Midni9ht> column: CASTLE DENSITY
Midni9ht> same as town density but for forted towns
kerberos_gr> mid ,hold on ,i have to clarify this one
Midni9ht> read my template
Midni9ht> what do i do
kerberos_gr> lets say that i want red to have 2 castles from the start
kerberos_gr> i put 2 to minimum castles
kerberos_gr> and what i put to castle density?
Midni9ht> nothing
Midni9ht> blank
Midni9ht> if u want fixed numbers, dont use density
kerberos_gr> ok
kerberos_gr> got it
Midni9ht> use one approach or the other
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> or if want to make it random
Midni9ht> with a minimum of 2
Midni9ht> then use both
kerberos_gr> i see
Midni9ht> i havent used random towns yet
Midni9ht> a template like ring has random # towns
Midni9ht> so sometimes u get 6 in area
Midni9ht> sometimes 3
kerberos_gr> well i suppose that nobody will want to use this random town feature
kerberos_gr> at least not for toh
Midni9ht> it makes maps feel more random
Midni9ht> so might be ok, but need to design for it
Midni9ht> which i havent done
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> Category: NEUTRAL TOWNS
Midni9ht> now u see the same again
Midni9ht> MINIMUM TOWNS
Midni9ht> MINIMUM CASTLES
kerberos_gr> neutral is for towns without an owner?
Midni9ht> TOWN DENSITY
Midni9ht> CASTLE DENSITY
Midni9ht> yes
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> u can have towns in the same zone
Midni9ht> that u dont have from day 1
Midni9ht> on dwarven tunnels u always have 2 towns in start zone
Midni9ht> one is a Player town
Midni9ht> other is a Neutral town
kerberos_gr> and one is neutral
Midni9ht> yes
Midni9ht> Column: TOWNS ARE OF SAME TYPE
Midni9ht> this allows towns in same zone to be same type
Midni9ht> if no "x" then towns r random
kerberos_gr> hmmmm
Midni9ht> for dwarven tunnels this has an "x" in it
Midni9ht> of course is only relevant if more than 1 town in a zone
Midni9ht> which is not the case in Panic
kerberos_gr> so if the towns are in a differewnt zone you cannot make them identical
Midni9ht> correct
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> Column: CASTLE
Midni9ht> Column: RAMPART
Midni9ht> etc
Midni9ht> up to ELEMENTAL
Midni9ht> (Elemental = Conflux)
kerberos_gr> yeah i know
Midni9ht> These say which towns ur allowed to have in that zone
Midni9ht> u will notice (in PANIC template) i ban conlfux and necro
Midni9ht> from player start zones
Midni9ht> the 3rd and 4th zones
Midni9ht> i make necro
kerberos_gr> yes
Midni9ht> the way the zones are connected
Midni9ht> zone 1 expands into zone 3
Midni9ht> zone 2 expands into zone 4
Midni9ht> so the 2nd town u get is always necro
Midni9ht> this was to stop double building
kerberos_gr> hmmm i didnt got that
Midni9ht> cuz on a no-relic template like Panic
Midni9ht> if u got matching towns
Midni9ht> is huge advantage
Midni9ht> so i force 2nd town
Midni9ht> to never be same as start town
kerberos_gr> ok i got it
kerberos_gr> ok ok
kerberos_gr> nice trick
Midni9ht> is important
Midni9ht> double builds r really boring
Midni9ht> makes defensive game play
kerberos_gr> yep
kerberos_gr> agree
Midni9ht> u can see in the other zones
Midni9ht> i allow anything
Midni9ht> cuz r all fair game
Midni9ht> and hard to defend
Midni9ht> so hard to get a double build
Midni9ht> Category: MINIMUM MINES
Midni9ht> Column: Wood
Midni9ht> Mercury, Ore etc
Midni9ht> will be the minimum number of those mines in zone
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> usually always put 1 wood and ore in a player zone
Midni9ht> other mines as u want in ur design
kerberos_gr> ok thats easy
kerberos_gr> about the guards
Midni9ht> in this case i put the other resource mines in the necro town zones
kerberos_gr> can you put guarded mines ?
Midni9ht> nope
kerberos_gr> ?
kerberos_gr> no?
Midni9ht> not the ones where u fight trogs
Midni9ht> to get an abandoned mine
kerberos_gr> no i m talking about the standard mines
Midni9ht> mines r automatically guarded, but the level of guard is decided later
kerberos_gr> usually they are guarded
Midni9ht> not up to it yet
kerberos_gr> what about unguarded mines?
Midni9ht> Category: MINE DENSITY
Midni9ht> same idea, but random
Midni9ht> Column: MATCH TO TOWN
Midni9ht> can have terrain matching the town
Midni9ht> eg Castle on grass
Midni9ht> if u dont "x" this
Midni9ht> u get random terrain
kerberos_gr> if you want to put everybody in the same ground?
Midni9ht> i usually put terrain matching town
Midni9ht> then u restrict the allowable terrain
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> column: DIRT
Midni9ht> an "x" here means u can allow that terrain type
Midni9ht> in this case Dirt is the necro terrain
Midni9ht> Sand is the only terrain not native to a town
Midni9ht> On Panic i've taken out Sand
Midni9ht> but left the rest
Midni9ht> column: STRENGTH
Midni9ht> this is the strengths of monsters in that zone
Midni9ht> i usually set to strong where possible
Midni9ht> in player start zone cant be strong
kerberos_gr> in the zone only or at the border of a zone?
Midni9ht> cuz it puts a guard on wood/ore mines
Midni9ht> which is too painful lol
Midni9ht> inside the zone
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> column: MATCH TO TOWN
kerberos_gr> whats the levels of creature strength?
Midni9ht> This means the monsters in that zone match the town type
kerberos_gr> strong
kerberos_gr> average
Midni9ht> average/avg
Midni9ht> weak
kerberos_gr> ah
Midni9ht> not sure if any others
kerberos_gr> weak too?
Midni9ht> yes
kerberos_gr> ok
kerberos_gr> how we write it in the editor?
kerberos_gr> weak?
Midni9ht> yes
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> i never use weak
Midni9ht> is boring to have easy battles
Midni9ht> if town necro then guards on items r vamps and skels etc
Midni9ht> but it doesnt work properly for me
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> i keep getting lots of diamond golems
Midni9ht> on prolly 1/3 of stacks
Midni9ht> so rarely use it
Midni9ht> in middle zone of Vortex i use it
Midni9ht> i think
Midni9ht> actually no, i did it another way
Midni9ht> column: NEUTRAL
Midni9ht> allowed to have non-aligned creatures as guards
kerberos_gr> diamond golems ,pigs, trols
kerberos_gr> etc
Midni9ht> yes
Midni9ht> column: CASTLE
Midni9ht> allowed to have castle type troops as guards
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> same for the other columns
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> Forge = conflux
kerberos_gr> yes i know
Midni9ht> now for the fun bit
Midni9ht> TREASURE Low|High|Density|Low|High|Density|Low|High|Density|
Midni9ht> this set of columns
Midni9ht> allows u to control the size and density of treasures in a zone
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> essentially controlls the guard of the treasure
kerberos_gr> not only the value of the treasure itself?
Midni9ht> is only the guard
kerberos_gr> i thought these variables determine the value of the guarded item and not the size of the guards.
Midni9ht> if guard same size for 2 items
Midni9ht> will randomly get one or the other
kerberos_gr> so this 3 columns determines the guards?
Midni9ht> yes
Midni9ht> within a zone
Midni9ht> and how frequently it will appear
Midni9ht> u get 3 shots at it
kerberos_gr> how we can determine the value of the item
Midni9ht> to allow some texture in the zone
Midni9ht> u might want a low density of big treasures
kerberos_gr> beside the guards
Midni9ht> and large density of small treasures
Midni9ht> the guard determines what u get
kerberos_gr> oh i see
Midni9ht> if i do a guard less than 9800
Midni9ht> i will never get a utopia
kerberos_gr> so these 3 colums defines the value of the object and the guard
Midni9ht> prolly same for 9900
Midni9ht> but if i make a guard 11000
Midni9ht> as a possiblity
Midni9ht> then i can get utopias
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> the minimum/max and density
Midni9ht> defines the guard
kerberos_gr> btw i have alreay read the appropriate thread
Midni9ht> and the guard has a relationship to the treasure
Midni9ht> how the treasures relate to the guards i dont know exactly
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> but i've checked for a few important things
kerberos_gr> ok i m listening
Midni9ht> conserves start at 2000 or around that
Midni9ht> after 3500 the conserves will only appear with another item behind guard
Midni9ht> between 2000 and 3500 u get heaps of conserves
kerberos_gr> and we dont want that
Midni9ht> so u will notice i make the easy treasures (loose stuff) from 1500 to 2000
kerberos_gr> except archie
Midni9ht> then the small guarded stuff from 3500 to 4500
Midni9ht> so i skip 2000 to 3500 completely
kerberos_gr> so from 1500 to 2000 are unguarded stuff?
Midni9ht>crypts,piles of rescources ,chests, and small stat boosters like +1 def
kerberos_gr> great
Midni9ht> i sometimes do 1000 to 2000
Midni9ht> under 800 u get lots of lvl 1 scrolls
Midni9ht> which get annoying
kerberos_gr> whats the difference between 1500 - 1000 and 1500-2000?
Midni9ht> not much
Midni9ht> prolly get more chests and crypts 1500-2000
kerberos_gr> hmm ok
Midni9ht> less gold piles
kerberos_gr> great
Midni9ht> if u set min 800 max 800
Midni9ht> u get gold piles
Midni9ht> only
Midni9ht> u can see in Panic
kerberos_gr> hmm
Midni9ht> that i do that for later zones
Midni9ht> a bit of freebie gold
kerberos_gr> hehe
kerberos_gr> )
Midni9ht> as a reward for breaking into a new area
kerberos_gr> hehe
kerberos_gr> yeah i know the feeling )
Midni9ht> u will notice in the start zone for red or blue
Midni9ht> i make them the same
Midni9ht> is only fair
kerberos_gr> yes but
Midni9ht> the freebie stuff has density 3
kerberos_gr> no small freebies ((, , )
Midni9ht> small battle stuff density 10
Midni9ht> bit bigger battles density 3
Midni9ht> so means the zone is a chain fest
Midni9ht> not much free stuff
kerberos_gr> wait i need some help here
Midni9ht> and lots of small battles
Midni9ht> ring is similar
kerberos_gr> i see 3 sets of low high and density for the same zone
Midni9ht> yes
kerberos_gr> why?
Midni9ht> that allows u some texture in the zone
Midni9ht> otherwise u r gonna have only 1 density of 1 range of treasures
kerberos_gr> you mean ,that each one is added to the other?
Midni9ht> sort of added
kerberos_gr> ok ok great ) continue
Midni9ht> Now for the CONNECTIONS
kerberos_gr> wait
kerberos_gr> let me copy paste
kerberos_gr> ok
kerberos_gr> ready
Midni9ht> column: Zone 1
Midni9ht> column: Zone 2
Midni9ht> column: Value
Midni9ht> this is used to define a connection between 2 zones
kerberos_gr> try to be presice here ,its a delicate matter
Midni9ht> if i draw the zones on a piece of paper
Midni9ht> as a circle
Midni9ht> and join some of those circles with a line
Midni9ht> then the lines are the connections
Midni9ht> it says this zone must join that other zone
kerberos_gr> you mean like a road?
Midni9ht> road is one possiblity
Midni9ht> can be 2 way portals, 1 way portal, or just break in the mountains
kerberos_gr> zone =connection =area?
Midni9ht> no
Midni9ht> zone = area
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> piece of land
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> connection is the rule to join one piece of land to another
kerberos_gr> that was a silly question forget it
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> the Value component
Midni9ht> is the size of the guard
Midni9ht> that blocks the way
Midni9ht> between the 2 zones
kerberos_gr> k
Midni9ht> as an exercise try putting the zones as circles on paper
Midni9ht> and using the connections for Panic
Midni9ht> to join them with lines
Midni9ht> u should get start zones
Midni9ht> that go to necro zone
Midni9ht> which have 1 heavily guarded access
Midni9ht> and 3 weaker routes
Midni9ht> via 2 other zones
Midni9ht> each of the 3 routes also have 1 treasure zone off each
Midni9ht> if i put Value = 0 then there is no guard
Midni9ht> ring template is like this
Midni9ht> Column: WIDE
Midni9ht> is same as doing Value=0
Midni9ht> means no guard
Midni9ht> column: BORDER GUARD
Midni9ht> doesnt work properly
Midni9ht> never use it
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> tries to put border guards with tents
Midni9ht> to act as zone barriers
Midni9ht> but it is a mess
Midni9ht> and not used in any of 3do templates
Midni9ht> Then u see the restrictions again, but this time on connections rather than zones
Midni9ht> MINIMUM HUMAN POSITIONS
Midni9ht> MAXIMUM HUMAN POSITIONS
Midni9ht> MINIMUM TOTAL POSITIONS
Midni9ht> MAXIMUM TOTAL POSITIONS
Midni9ht> this is same idea as earlier
kerberos_gr> what do you mean?
Midni9ht> when we put rules on when zones can appear
Midni9ht> so we can have extra connections if have extra players
Midni9ht> which u need if u can have extra zones
kerberos_gr> one last question
kerberos_gr> tell me the quickest way to make a modifications and see the outcome in the real map
kerberos_gr> do you understand what i mean?
Midni9ht> yes, when testing
Midni9ht> how to do it quickly
kerberos_gr> yes
Midni9ht> leave the template editor open always
kerberos_gr> yes
Midni9ht> and when u save a change
Midni9ht> open the map editor
Midni9ht> (will need to open it fresh to get the new template)
Midni9ht> and generate a map
Midni9ht> to look at
Midni9ht> then if it needs a change
Midni9ht> edit the template again
Midni9ht> and save
Midni9ht> close down map editor
Midni9ht> open the map editor again
kerberos_gr> ahh niceee (using homer simpsons voice while eating chocolate ))
Midni9ht> and generate another map
Midni9ht> eventually u will need to play test maps
Midni9ht> in which case i do it in single player mode
Midni9ht> and use the single player cheats to see the map
kerberos_gr> yes ,i thought so too
Midni9ht> eg nwcgeneraldirection for 1.4
Midni9ht> nwcrevealourselves for AB
Midni9ht> not sure what the sod one is
Midni9ht> ok, now some extra things
Midni9ht> hives start at 9000
Midni9ht> so if u want to ban hives stop at just under 9000
Midni9ht> u will see in Panic template
Midni9ht> i only allow hives in 3 template
Midni9ht> 3 zones i mean
Midni9ht> these r the treasure zones
Midni9ht> 9500 is well over 9000
kerberos_gr> when the hives appear?
Midni9ht> so will get hives
Midni9ht> among other items
Midni9ht> hives seem to appear a lot between 9000 and 10000
Midni9ht> which is handy cuz can have hives without risk of utopia
Midni9ht> if that is what u want in ur design
Midni9ht> in the case of Panic
Midni9ht> it is exactly what i want
kerberos_gr> what about relics?
kerberos_gr> alone relics
Midni9ht> they r more guarded than utopias
Midni9ht> i guess cuz utopias contain their own dragon guards
Midni9ht> in addition to the guard out the front
Midni9ht> maximum value for treasure settings is 120000
Midni9ht> this is about 70 anchients
Midni9ht> after this, the generator doesnt put them on map
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> can have connection guards of any size tho
Midni9ht> it seems
Midni9ht> as big as i've ever needed anyway
Midni9ht> the problems u still get
Midni9ht> misplaced guards
Midni9ht> is annoying
kerberos_gr> yes!!!!!i was gonna ask you that.
Midni9ht> i find that under 22000 u rarely get misplaced guards
kerberos_gr> really ?
kerberos_gr> weird
Midni9ht> yep
kerberos_gr> i dont understand why
Midni9ht> makes sense tho
kerberos_gr> why?
Midni9ht> bigger u get
Midni9ht> the more items to guard
kerberos_gr> ah yes ,you have a point there
Midni9ht> if u guard a hive and 3 boxes, a relic and a chest
Midni9ht> is hard to do that effectively
kerberos_gr> what about the size of zones
Midni9ht> on some of my other templates
Midni9ht> i limit size of stacks to 22000
Midni9ht> but to get mega stacks i drop the density right down
Midni9ht> so that the generator has plenty of space
Midni9ht> to arrange the items so the guard is right
Midni9ht> in the treasure zones in EXTREME
Midni9ht> i dont allow any small items at all
Midni9ht> and just have a low density of huge items
Midni9ht> i found i rarely had a misplaced guard
Midni9ht> i think if density is too high
kerberos_gr> i see your point ,give space to comp to work with
Midni9ht> the guards run out of space
Midni9ht> and get misplaced
kerberos_gr> ok listen
Midni9ht> it is not as simple to say what u get at what size
Midni9ht> 5000 might be 2 chests
Midni9ht> it might also be 2 bits of crystal
Midni9ht> it might also be a grail obelisk
Midni9ht> it might also be 1 chest and 1 bit of mercury
Midni9ht> it might also guard the gloves
kerberos_gr> a relic ,how much is it?
Midni9ht> not sure
Midni9ht> but is more than a utopia
kerberos_gr> utopia is 11000?
Midni9ht> utopia is 10000+
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> relic maybe around 14000
Midni9ht> but i'm not sure
Midni9ht> just guessing
Midni9ht> but u would never want to ban relics
Midni9ht> and allow utopias
kerberos_gr> it would be nice if i could find the exact number of relics
Midni9ht> u either want to ban both or none
kerberos_gr> i could put a small area of relics only
Midni9ht> so 10000+ is enuf
kerberos_gr> like in hourglass
Midni9ht> nope
kerberos_gr> nop?
Midni9ht> u will still get utopias
kerberos_gr> wait
Midni9ht> and u will still get hives
kerberos_gr> you just said
Midni9ht> and all sorts of other stuff
kerberos_gr> that 900 is gold
Midni9ht> cuz is combined
Midni9ht> 800
Midni9ht> only
Midni9ht> cuz is really small
Midni9ht> the bigger u get
kerberos_gr> hmm
Midni9ht> the more combinations
kerberos_gr> i see
Midni9ht> like i explained at 5000
Midni9ht> at 15000
kerberos_gr> yes
kerberos_gr> i got it ;(
Midni9ht> is many many many more combinations
Midni9ht> of items
Midni9ht> but some items never appear at all until a certain size
Midni9ht> that is the only control u have
kerberos_gr> i see ,ok i understand
Midni9ht> there is also a pandas box
Midni9ht> that gives u every spell in the game
kerberos_gr> i dont like that
Midni9ht> it only appears when 30000+
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> so on a template like EXTREME it is quite common
Midni9ht> but also are the tomes
Midni9ht> so works out ok on that template
kerberos_gr> tell me
Midni9ht> is important a map designer is aware of it tho
kerberos_gr> the bigger the number the bigger the utopia?
Midni9ht> as it might ruin another template
kerberos_gr> or is it random?
Midni9ht> random
Midni9ht> the utopia guard
kerberos_gr> ok thats good
Midni9ht> doesnt seem to change
kerberos_gr> no i mean the inside guards
Midni9ht> but i havent tested it carefully
kerberos_gr> blacks golds
Midni9ht> the # only affects 1 thing
Midni9ht> the guard of treasure
Midni9ht> u can try making some utopias at 10000
Midni9ht> then at 12000
Midni9ht> and see if the utopia is any different
Midni9ht> that would be the only way to test it
kerberos_gr> i see
Midni9ht> and make sure is guarding the utopia only
Midni9ht> not some other item as well
Midni9ht> but given that hives and conserves
Midni9ht> r random
Midni9ht> i doubt that the guard would change on utopias
Midni9ht> to reflect any utopia size
Midni9ht> would be a valid test tho
kerberos_gr> i will try it
Midni9ht> Another bug
Midni9ht> if zones same terrain
Midni9ht> the generator will sometimes connect them
Midni9ht> even tho is no defined connection
kerberos_gr> ouch
Midni9ht> so the trick is to allow random towns and terrain
Midni9ht> as much as possible in template
Midni9ht> in panic
Midni9ht> i will get dirt
kerberos_gr> thats a big bug man
Midni9ht> in necro area
Midni9ht> if both above ground
Midni9ht> in rare circumstances
Midni9ht> it will connect them
Midni9ht> theoretically
Midni9ht> can be same for Meeting in Muzgob
Midni9ht> both on grass
Midni9ht> so occassionally
Midni9ht> it will connect the players
Midni9ht> on start zones
Midni9ht> tho in definition
Midni9ht> is no connection
Midni9ht> pretty rare tho
Midni9ht> maybe 1 in 20 games?
Midni9ht> havent tested, but feels about that
kerberos_gr> so i ll try to put as much random grounds as possible
kerberos_gr> ?
Midni9ht> y
Midni9ht> also i worked out how to reduce 1 way doors
kerberos_gr> how?
Midni9ht> when the generator organises the connections
Midni9ht> it appears to use the roads a bit and breaks in mountains a bit
Midni9ht> then it gets stuck
Midni9ht> and goes, i need to use doors
Midni9ht> so it starts with the 2 way doors
Midni9ht> then runs out, and goes onto the 1 way doors
Midni9ht> i presume when the 1 way doors r used up
Midni9ht> it cant make connections
Midni9ht> so if u limit the # of connections
Midni9ht> u can make it very rare to need 1 way doors
Midni9ht> panic has 13 connections
kerberos_gr> when we are talking about connections we mean ,exits ,roads,portals?
kerberos_gr> what else?
Midni9ht> that is it
Midni9ht> under gates
Midni9ht> also
kerberos_gr> is there a way to erase roads entirelly from the map?
Midni9ht> with 13 connections u will almost never need 1 way doors
Midni9ht> to make the map
Midni9ht> to generator doesnt put them in
Midni9ht> u will get a few 2 way doors at the most
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> also...
Midni9ht> the name of a template is irrelevant to the generator
kerberos_gr> ?
Midni9ht> so i've split a few templates into multiple ones
Midni9ht> with the same name
Midni9ht> so that i can have different settings
Midni9ht> for different size maps
Midni9ht> blockbuster is like this
Midni9ht> also triad
Midni9ht> on the smaller templates i have more easy treasure
Midni9ht> and smaller guards between zones
Midni9ht> to make them playable
Midni9ht> if u got same huge stacks that work for XL
Midni9ht> on an M map
Midni9ht> it is unplayable
kerberos_gr> i guess i ll have to experiment a lot in order to get the feeling of all these
Midni9ht> so whilst blockbuster looks like 1 template
Midni9ht> it is actually 3
kerberos_gr> but i know what you mean
Midni9ht> i'm trying to think of anything more...
Midni9ht> here is one
kerberos_gr> yes
Midni9ht> Randoms r never balanced
Midni9ht> and never will be
kerberos_gr> lol
Midni9ht> but there r some tricks
Midni9ht> to balance out a template
Midni9ht> main one is to make the start zones bigger than any other zone
Midni9ht> this way u always get an ok sized starting area
Midni9ht> the next trick i use
Midni9ht> is to ban underground
kerberos_gr> why?
Midni9ht> cuz under is really hard
Midni9ht> for start zone
Midni9ht> can have 20% of resources
Midni9ht> of player above
Midni9ht> 1/5th
Midni9ht> is very bad
Midni9ht> only allow underground on ur template as an exception
Midni9ht> if u really want it
kerberos_gr> how you ban underground?'
Midni9ht> easy
Midni9ht> minimum 9
Midni9ht> maximum 16
Midni9ht> the other way of balancing
Midni9ht> is to add gold mines
Midni9ht> to start zone
Midni9ht> if area is small
Midni9ht> u get less gold structurs
Midni9ht> structures
Midni9ht> like crypts
Midni9ht> but....
Midni9ht> the gold mines will be very close
Midni9ht> so u can tag them at the start of week 2
Midni9ht> and get an ok build
kerberos_gr> is there a way to ban roads
Midni9ht> the player with the large zone
Midni9ht> will have the gold mines a long long way away
Midni9ht> but since they have more of everything else
Midni9ht> they dont need them
kerberos_gr> is there a way to ban roads?
Midni9ht> in EXTREME i add 2 gold mines
Midni9ht> to start area
Midni9ht> since the 2nd town is hard to get
Midni9ht> one player might get in week 1
Midni9ht> another week 3
Midni9ht> if no gold mines
Midni9ht> the 2nd town is a massive advantage
Midni9ht> cant ban roads
Midni9ht> but can reduce them
kerberos_gr> how?
Midni9ht> roads join towns
Midni9ht> u remove towns
Midni9ht> u remove many roads
Midni9ht> as a consequence
Midni9ht> next attempt at getting some balance
Midni9ht> even tho random r inherently unbalanced
Midni9ht> ...
Midni9ht> remove towns
kerberos_gr> ?
Midni9ht> from main treasure zones
Midni9ht> if u have towns in there
Midni9ht> one player will get a road
Midni9ht> straight to treasure
Midni9ht> the other player might not
Midni9ht> is unfair perhaps
Midni9ht> if u remove any towns
Midni9ht> if treasure zone has no towns
Midni9ht> there r only 2 possibilities
Midni9ht> no roads
Midni9ht> or an intersecting road
kerberos_gr> intersecting?
Midni9ht> road cuts thru it
kerberos_gr> ok continue
Midni9ht> 95% of the time
Midni9ht> it will join the 2 players
Midni9ht> so equal access
Midni9ht> with or without roads
kerberos_gr> listen
kerberos_gr> i dont like roads
Midni9ht> ha ha
Midni9ht> generator likes them
kerberos_gr> 1)because if there is no undergroung,it speeds up the game a lot
Midni9ht> only way to remove roads is to remove towns
kerberos_gr> 2)it can give unfair advantage to one player as you said before
kerberos_gr> if i put only 2 towns
kerberos_gr> one for each player
Midni9ht> u get 1 road most of the time
kerberos_gr> what will happen
Midni9ht> i have tried it
kerberos_gr>
Midni9ht> the simplest
Midni9ht> is a block map
Midni9ht> connect 2 player zones
Midni9ht> u get 1 road between them
Midni9ht> and that is it
Midni9ht> all other zones
Midni9ht> that dont have towns
Midni9ht> have no road
Midni9ht> but this is only if the 2 towns
Midni9ht> r neighbouring zones
Midni9ht> if u have zones between them
kerberos_gr> what bout unconnected players
Midni9ht> then the road can go thru them too
kerberos_gr> sometime the 2 players cant reach eachother
kerberos_gr> thats bad lol
Midni9ht> generator will always try to connnect towns
kerberos_gr> how you can avoid that?
Midni9ht> is poor template design
Midni9ht> those templates have errors
kerberos_gr> i have played some maps ,where we could reach eachother
kerberos_gr> couldnt
Midni9ht> 3d0 stuffed up
kerberos_gr> one of these maps was meeting in muzgob
kerberos_gr> i was playing with bp as allie
Midni9ht> hmmm
kerberos_gr> against tel and dracos(if i recall it right)
Midni9ht> i'd have to look at the template
kerberos_gr> i remember very well
Midni9ht> muzgob seemed ok
Midni9ht> when i looked at it b4
Midni9ht> but can depend on the zone/connection restrictions
kerberos_gr> i promise you that we were absolutely blocked
Midni9ht> i've never had that on my templates yet
kerberos_gr> and we have discovered it after 9 hours lol
Midni9ht> so i'm guessing it is a design bug on the zone/connection restrictions
kerberos_gr> i see
Midni9ht> rather than a generator bug
Midni9ht> i'll try to think of 1 more thing...
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> i touched on it earlier
Midni9ht> but worth repeating
kerberos_gr> ok
Midni9ht> to make templates that have a reasonable turn length
Midni9ht> u gotta keep the density down
Midni9ht> or mix up the stack sizes a bit
Midni9ht> so cant just sit in an area with 8 heroes chaining
Midni9ht> panic has quite a high density of small guards
Midni9ht> so prone to lots of chaining
kerberos_gr> yes
Midni9ht> whereas EXTREME has very little small guards
kerberos_gr> i think thats players prob
Midni9ht> so regardless of player, the turns r quick
kerberos_gr> i mean with 2 min turn ,you cant chain a lot
Midni9ht> enuf free things
Midni9ht> and enuf tougher guards to force u to battle with main hero
kerberos_gr> if you do ,you loose the game
Midni9ht> well this avoids any arguments
Midni9ht> and rushing around in 2 mins
Midni9ht> u just cut out the small guards
kerberos_gr> yes ,i ll keep that in mind
Midni9ht> but that is if u want that style of template
Midni9ht> i've done both types
Midni9ht> main thing is to understand the consequence
Midni9ht> so u got more control over design
Midni9ht> with EXTREME i want to get the player out of weeks 1 and 2 as quickly as possible
Midni9ht> cuz it is a template about big battles
Midni9ht> so i made it reasonably rich with free stuff
Midni9ht> on panic
Midni9ht> collection of meagre resouces
Midni9ht> is an important part of game play
Midni9ht> so it suits the design to have the small guarded treasures
kerberos_gr> ok ,noted
Midni9ht> on 2v2 or ffa maps
Midni9ht> similar to EXTREME
Midni9ht> make it fast turns
Midni9ht> no need for long chains
Midni9ht> that will do
Midni9ht> 4am now lol
kerberos_gr> hehe
kerberos_gr> well time to copy and paste for last time
Midni9ht> yep
kerberos_gr> your biographie will be published soon ))
Midni9ht> he he
Midni9ht> cya )
Edit by Hexa: Qp applied... good initiative!@ But one hell of a post to read
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midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2003 02:09 AM |
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was a little at the start that got chopped out that is needed for context
Midni9ht> down load latest templates from http://www.toheroes.com/myths/maps/new/rmg.htm
kerberos_gr> what template i will load?
Midni9ht> panic
Midni9ht> Panic (ban fly/DD, 2 player, 1-Jan-03, midnight design)
Midni9ht> should say this
also the editor u use is important
Midni9ht> which text editor? the one that lines things up in columns?
Midni9ht> http://www.strategyplanet.com/homm/bastards/randoms/randoms.html
Midni9ht> is where u can get that editor
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted January 27, 2003 03:37 AM |
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Wow when i find the time to read all this im sure ill learn a thing or two..which is great because im planning of making a template on my own aswell. Not as rich as the rest of the paradise temps tho =P
But this was just what i needed i guess, thnx alot kerbs and midi =)
We could use more temp makers even if for example midi is doing a good job alrdy.
Nice =)
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted January 27, 2003 03:23 PM |
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Just a note:
The whole thing was interesting. It wouldnt be bad if everyone read that.
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What are you up to
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midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2003 03:24 PM |
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oops now that i read it kerby did put those preliminary things in his intro
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted January 28, 2003 01:22 PM |
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Beer on me to whoever reads the whole interview in one try
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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kerberos_gr
Hired Hero
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posted January 29, 2003 08:25 PM |
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One beer please ,and send the bill to Mr Kuma please .
Seriously now ,i think its important for people to start reading this thread ,if we ever want to see some serious rmg production.I know that the interview is long ,but still its the only place where you can find so much information , coming from a specialist of the genre(midnight).
So kuma buddy ,stop fooling around,and start reading ,you bum!!! .
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted January 29, 2003 08:50 PM |
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yes sir! I made it to 60% last time tho.
And I'm not ur guy to make new rdms anyway. It took me 2 years to find the internet-bottun anyway.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted January 30, 2003 01:30 AM |
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Ive just made a temp, yet to do some testing with it.. this could be fun =)
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midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 05, 2003 02:34 PM |
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how many beers does kuma hand out?
well at least 1 i think, cuz Sir Stiven read the whole thread and is making a new template which looks like it has some potential.
Have we got any more template makers out there?
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted February 05, 2003 03:21 PM |
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Big credit to the guys who will make new templates.
I'm too lazy, busy and wayyyyy to short tempered for it; will cost me my compu if I don't get it LOL
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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DoddTheSlayer
Promising
Famous Hero
Banned from opening threads
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posted April 07, 2003 06:58 AM |
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Very Usefull. Just made my first template specially suited for games with a friend who likes the same map types as me.
I couldnt have done it without this thread.
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Retaliation is for the foolish. Silence is wisdom
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nemuli
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 07, 2003 09:48 AM |
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Dear Midnight,
we(Chinese H3 funs) really need one or two buttons for exchange all troops or all artifacts between two heroes. we used to exchange them one by one. That always made us TIME OUT during 4mins/turn game.
Can you will help us?
with respect
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 07, 2003 10:20 AM |
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I'm not midnight
Quote:
we(Chinese H3 funs) really need one or two buttons for exchange all troops or all artifacts between two heroes. we used to exchange them one by one. That always made us TIME OUT during 4mins/turn game.
play 6mins/turn
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midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 07, 2003 10:40 AM |
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i only know how to make random map templates. if u want programing changes ask the WOG guys. We all want a button to swap all troops when chaining, but 3do never gave it to us
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zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted April 07, 2003 11:40 AM |
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Great work!
Explaining is the most thingie that rmg.txt needs now and u dudes have done it pretty well. I hope many ppl will read this stuff and will understand the great options that arises from rmg.txt.
Just a few additional comments as regards values:
Major arties - value is 10000 (same as utopia - pretty stupid, because u can't put major arties on map without the risk of having utopia).
Relicts - value is 20000.
One more tricky value could be 5000, because with 5000+ u will have a possibility to have 5th lvl spells on that zone.
Also I would recomend not to use more then 7000 value in starting zones (at this value u can get lvl 7 dwelling of your alignment on map).
____________
Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.
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Lake0921
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 07, 2003 11:57 AM |
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good thing that with my ver i can't make random maps, cause i am lost 
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If you don't like me there's probably something wrong with you.
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 07, 2003 12:02 PM |
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Quote:
Just a few additional comments as regards values:
Major arties - value is 10000 (same as utopia - pretty stupid, because u can't put major arties on map without the risk of having utopia).
Relicts - value is 20000.
One more tricky value could be 5000, because with 5000+ u will have a possibility to have 5th lvl spells on that zone.
maybe adding some confusion, but I'm pretty convinced that those values are relative to the density, not absolute. For example Min 20k, Max 20k, Density 1 gives you different objects than Min 20k, Max 20k, Density 9. Not only in quantity, also in quality. Am I mistaken?
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zilonite
Famous Hero
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posted April 07, 2003 01:04 PM |
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maybe adding some confusion, but I'm pretty convinced that those values are relative to the density, not absolute. For example Min 20k, Max 20k, Density 1 gives you different objects than Min 20k, Max 20k, Density 9. Not only in quantity, also in quality. Am I mistaken?
Hmm, i tried out this thing some 20 times - only difference i get was the amount of objects, not the quality of objects. Anybody had other results?
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Elephants commonly have a bad eyesight. Yet with their bulk this is not a major problem for them.
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midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 07, 2003 03:17 PM |
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density doesnt affect size of treasures from what i've seen.
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