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| Thread: Tactic exercices |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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dimis
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posted March 23, 2005 05:44 PM |
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Quote:
... and I did win the fight without summonings (with 20 SS's left  )
I am interested though on learning how you managed to end the battle without even a single summoning. That is because according to your strategy ...
(SPOILER!)
you cast Stone Skin on First round and then Frenzies ... You end up facing *about* 370-380 Sharpshooters with 95 + 1 fooder on the beginning of the 6th round. I am really curious to find out how you win this battle ...
Thank you in advance,
- Dimis -
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angelito
Honorable
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proud father of a princess
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posted March 23, 2005 05:50 PM |
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Perhaps i´m missing something here, but sure it was obvious for me to cast stoneskin first round to increase the effect of frenzy though. But still with this combination, i wasn´t able to shoot them sharpies down to zero.
I also tried it with casting bless first round. But after round 6, all my melee blockers are dead and the enemy sharpies start to shoot. To cast frenzy in round 7 is not that good idea, coz there will still be about 200 sharpies left, and then they would kill me with one shot coz of no defense. With summon elemental the fight is easy to win, coz u only need 2 or 3 more rounds to kill the rest of 200 sharpies. But without summoning, i didn´t suceed yet. Tried some combinations like airshield + curse + forgetfullnes, and the enemies killed only about 55 sharpies with one shot, but the rest of 40 sharpies won´t win aganist them.
I think i have to try some more combinations i guess....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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csarmi
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posted March 23, 2005 07:30 PM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 23 Mar 2005
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In the beginning of the fight, you have five and not six turns! You have to start worrying about enemy SS in the 6th round (they will attack in the 7th round! - so the last round to position your elemental is the 6th and do not come here claiming that you can predict where the elementals would appear in turn 7 because they appear randomly (am I wrong here??)) and therefore you cannot cast your frenzy then.
Thus, you cast bless+ss+frenzy+frenzy+frenzy and that is inferior to ss+frenzy+frenzy+frenzy+frenzy.
How did I defeat them without summons? I was lucky and destroyed a lot of SS in the first 6 rounds. Then it was only a matter of casting defensive and buff spells to survive. I hardly made it, still.
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angelito
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posted March 23, 2005 08:13 PM |
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Sorry Csarmi, but there has to be something wrong.
I tried your *ss + 4 times frenzy* about 10 times in a row. Best i could reach was getting them down to about 320. At that point, i tried many different spells like curse, airshield, forgetfullness, but all failed. No chance to kill more than 250 sharpies with only 95 on the other side.
But perhaps i´m doing something wrong here....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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csarmi
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posted March 23, 2005 08:32 PM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 23 Mar 2005
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Then read my posts perhaps.
There are two scenarios.
One with the safety play and one with the lucky "I don't summon them elementals".
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dimis
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posted March 24, 2005 01:58 AM |
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Exercise 7
Quote:
In the beginning of the fight, you have five and not six turns! You have to start worrying about enemy SS in the 6th round (they will attack in the 7th round! - so the last round to position your elemental is the 6th and do not come here claiming that you can predict where the elementals would appear in turn 7 because they appear randomly (am I wrong here??)) and therefore you cannot cast your frenzy then.
I dont't quite follow your thoughts csarmi... Can you please give us a link to your threads? I would really appreciate it. Perhaps me, tigris and angelito are all wrong, but it seems impossible for a man to accomplish all that. Anyway, I feel that you have the feeling that someone (perhaps me  ) is fooling you and I apologise for that. All I wanted to state on this thread is that this army and this amount of spell points can harm more than 1000 SSs without serious losses (5 SSs and 1 ArchMage) and as a result the solution be "more unique"!
As for the elementals, as you can see, I proposed summoning them on the first 1-3 rounds (depending on someone's solution) because exactly as you have stated you can't predict where these elementals will come up. In addition to that, if you do summon (at least once!) the elementals, then the combination of spells starting with Bless is better according to my opinion and the arguments I proposed earlier. I am terribly sorry if I can't convince you on that, but that's my opinion (tighter bounds and spell-points cost) and moreover you can't change my mind on that by simply stating cast Stone Skin on 1st round... Can't you enumerate your spells on each round so that we can see how much damage you inflict with your 95 SSs in a manner similar to what I did on a previous post?
Note 1: When I said I would cast Frenzy, I meant on the 10th round and not the 7th, because on the first 3 rounds I would cast water elementals while trying to inflict maximum damage with minimal losses on my original army... (I proved that using math ... )
Note 2: The timing where you are about to worry on the enemy SSs depends entirely on your strategy. So, naively thinking, you have to worry for them not on 6th round, but on 7th since you have the necklace of shiftness and you make the first move on that round! (Although, I do understand what you are trying to say, I don't quite see a way of exploiting what you say ...)
Note 3: Finally, although I left it as an open question whether or not you can win the battle without summoning on an earlier thread, I am almost certain now that it is quite impossible now (probability < 5%) for a man to win that battle without summoning even a single elemental. Well, I didn't bother to check that out earlier, since I wanted to find out the maximum number of opponents you are expected to clear-off with the army you are given and the amount of spell-points you are given.
I hope this one crystal-clears my position on the exercise.
Best Regards,
- Dimis -
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csarmi
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posted March 24, 2005 01:06 PM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 24 Mar 2005
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OK, give me an actual line.
I mean:
round 1:
round 2:
round 3:
etc...
what you cast when and what you do
"you cast Stone Skin on First round and then Frenzies ... You end up facing *about* 370-380 Sharpshooters with 95 + 1 fooder on the beginning of the 6th round. I am really curious to find out how you win this battle ..."
320-440 SS's actually. Now if you are close to 320, it's doable.
As for winning without summoning: yea that's not very likely but it can happen for sure. I have done it, I said I was lucky (I messed up my plan and since I did a lot of damage I thought I'd give it a try.)
Just how unlikely it is? Very much indeed. There is no fool proof solution for that, not even one that gives you good chances.
Winning with summoning:
ss+fr+fr+fr+fr+sw+...
Your plan WOULD be better but I still do not know how you'd di it. You simply will not have 6 rounds in a row to cast bl+ss+fr+fr+fr+fr
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angelito
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posted March 24, 2005 02:39 PM |
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You cast "summon elemental" at the start of the fight and bring them near the enemy sharpies. After that u start with bless, ss and frenzy.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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dimis
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posted March 24, 2005 03:19 PM |
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Quote:
You cast "summon elemental" at the start of the fight and bring them near the enemy sharpies. After that u start with bless, ss and frenzy.
thx angelito. I thought it was clear that ...
- Dimis -
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csarmi
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posted March 24, 2005 07:13 PM |
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Quote:
You cast "summon elemental" at the start of the fight and bring them near the enemy sharpies. After that u start with bless, ss and frenzy.
That does not work for the same reason. Your problem is only delayed till the 7th round.
However, summoning elemental in the first 3 rounds might work for then the opps will die on the last frnzy.
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dimis
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posted March 24, 2005 09:56 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You cast "summon elemental" at the start of the fight and bring them near the enemy sharpies. After that u start with bless, ss and frenzy.
That does not work for the same reason. Your problem is only delayed till the 7th round.
However, summoning elemental in the first 3 rounds might work for then the opps will die on the last frnzy.
I remember for sure that you can follow my strategy by summoning 2-3 elementals... Perhaps when summoning only 1 elemental you have to start with StoneSkin so that drastic measures effect the battle as soon as it gets. I can not tell you with certainty specific spells on each round because in the last 3 hours my hard disk has severe problems and I can not load Windows (I am writing from the computer of my father which is P1 and I don't have enough space to install the game and test it by myself ). Although, the battle, doesn't seem that problematic. Let's see:
round 1: Elementals
rounds 2-7: bless, ss, frenzies x 4
Sum of damage so far: 11600 - 12200 (expected 11900)
plus ~210 (from the various fooders - which is pessimistic)
plus ~150 (because I am feeling lucky as you do! )
Total so far: 12360
Which means there are about 175 SSs left.
round 8: Forgetfulness + 945 damage
means there are 112 SSs left
They (56) attack and inflict 495 damage (33 SSs of mine)
The round ends me having 62 and AI 112.
round 9: Implosion + ~590 damage
means there are ~(112 - 78)= ~34 left.
They (~17) attack and inflict 17x10 (!) = 170 damage
Let's say they kill 12 mine.
The round ends me having ~50 SSs vs 34.
round10+: I believe you can win now since you have overwhelming odds against the AI! (plus Spell-points for stone skin so that you can minimize your losses, plus you make the first move...)
Notes:
1) I repeat that I have not tested the above since my computer doesnot work. Hope you can understand my situation ...
2) I think you 've missed the point of our conversation though... I might be a tavern dweller because I haven't played many times on the Internet (and I am not sure if I will ever will..) and seems that I must be wrong on my propositions. I repeat again myself. I didn't want to offend you in any way. Perhaps the strategy of Stone Skin just after a single elemental summoning is indeed better. All I wanted to express on this thread is that this exercise could be more difficult and thus more instructive. (either fewer spell points, fewer initial army {yours}, or more opponents {my initial proposition}).
3) I believe it is about time for you to tell us how you did it with spells for each round and not casting a single elemental... (accompanied by maths would be deeply appreciated)
4) I think I wanted to say sth more, but it seems someone has cast "Forgetfulness" on me!
I 'll come back whenever I can. Hope you understand my hardware problems.
Regards,
- Dimis -
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csarmi
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posted March 25, 2005 12:59 AM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 24 Mar 2005
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"I must be wrong on my propositions. I repeat again myself. I didn't want to offend you in any way."
I don't quite follow you here.
"3) I believe it is about time for you to tell us how you did it with spells for each round and not casting a single elemental... (accompanied by maths would be deeply appreciated)"
That I have done several times.
Imagine it's turn 6, you to move, 95+1 sharpshooters against 330.
@your strategy - it can work well, but you have to start with 2-3 rounds of elemental summoning and casting bless + stone skin only after that
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted March 25, 2005 07:43 AM |
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Stupid AI not so stupid
Hehe sorry to intrude in your technical discussion guys, but to me it seems this is all just theory.
In practice the storyline goes like this:In the tactic phase you move forward your single sshooter fodders so you can block the enemy.If you move your stacks too far, the SS stack won't attack the fodder you place in front of it, but it will move forward and attack one of the fodders you have placed forward in the tactic phase.Next round the target WILL BE the main stack(95 SS).I have done this fight many times now and have learned that even if you place one fodder in front of the enemy SS, and the other ones to a distance of 10 hexes(9+1 given by the bonus art), still on some ocasions the 1000 SS move forward without attacking the fodder and round 2 they clean up my main stack.This is somehow wierd cos it fails to follow the usual rules the AI acts.But it happened to me twice now n it's first move the SS moved directly forward without being able to reach a single unit round 1(although they had a single ss stack just in front of them).Then round 2 they kill all my 95 SS.
I have also tried to win the fight without summoning, but failed.(maybe with the pendant of courage/without spirit of opression and with sorrow it would be more likely to win)
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csarmi
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posted March 25, 2005 09:40 AM |
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OMG :-)
think, Tigris, think...
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dimis
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posted March 25, 2005 05:50 PM |
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Quote:
@your strategy - it can work well, but you have to start with 2-3 rounds of elemental summoning and casting bless + stone skin only after that
Well, I thought my previous example could convince you even for the case of summoning just one elemental, which seems that is still not the case. There is one thing though that I forgot to mention on my last post. And that is, that the example I gave, actually favors your strategy...  I strongly believe in my strategy so that I can face more frequently than you 'bad scenarios' ("worst case" analysis). As a result, I do believe that even when summoning only one elemental, my order of spells is superior. And the proof follows:
round 1.....: Summon Water Elementals
rounds 2 - 7: Bless, Stone Skin, 4x Frenzy
+ ~210 points of damage from fodders.
Sum ...........: 11810 - 12410
Expected Damage: 12110.
But this time I want to feel a little bit unlucky .
So, let's say that I don't reach the expected amount of damage and in fact I have 50 hp losses. That way, my damage till the beginning of round 8 is 12060, which means there are 196 SSs left.
Let's see the following rounds:
(On the following, when I attack I multiply with 1,1 since I have a 10% gain because of +2 attack vs their defence)
Round 08: 95 SSs vs 196 SSs
Cast Forgetfulness + 95 * 9 * 1,1 = 940,5 ~= 940 damage = 62,6 ~= 63 SSs.
They attack: 67 * 9 = 603 damage ~= 41 SSs.
Round 09: 54 SSs vs 133 SSs
Cast Implosion (~32 SSs, correct?) + 54 * 9 * 1,1 ~= 535 damage = 36 SSs.
They attack: 32 * 9 = 288 damage = 19 SSs.
Round 10: 35 SSs vs 65 SSs
Cast Stone Skin + 35 * 9 * 1,1 ~= 347 damage ~= 23 SSs.
They attack: 21 * 9 * 0,88 ~= 166 damage ~= 11 SSs.
Round 11: 24 SSs vs 42 SSs
Cast Bless + 24 * 10 * 1,1 = 264 ~= 17 SSs.
They attack: 13 * 9 * 0,88 ~= 103 damage = 7 SSs.
Round 12: 17 SSs vs 25 SSs
Cast Curse + 17 * 10 * 1,1 = 187 damage ~= 13 SSs
They attack: 6 * 8 * 0,88 = 42,24 damage ~= 3 SSs.
Round 13: 14 SSs vs 12 SSs
Although Forgetfulness doesn't hold for this round, it doesn't matter anymore, since you have overwhelming odds and you make the move first!
? What am I trying to say with this example?
> The fact that, if we both get up to the same degree unlucky on the first 7 rounds , you won't be able to face your opponents while I will... That is, because for every hit point below my expected outcome on the first 7 rounds I get, you have to face 4 hitpoints below your expected outcome in order for you to be to the same degree unlucky as I was! As a result, on this example I added only 3 more SSs to my case, which means that you should be able to face a battle against 205 SSs which I really don't know if you can... But that really doesn't matter actually!! (I am sure angelito will smile reading the following, since he likes limits) If you are able to manage a battle against 205 SSs, then I can do that as well (!) cause I have more spell points than you and the same army (hence I can follow your strategy after round 8, sth. that you can't do in all cases and follow mine... ). As a result, if I am able to face 205 SSs you should be able to face 193 + (205 - 193) * 4 = 241, which I am afraid you can't... Either way, in the limit of bad cases my strategy still seems superior since I have more chances to get out alive than you do, no matter how unlucky we both are! That is the reason I wanted your spell-casting for each round...
Regards,
- Dimis -
P.S.: A hint to tigris for his set up: Who has more hitpoints, the Arch Mage or the Sharpshooter?
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
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posted March 25, 2005 08:08 PM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 25 Mar 2005
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I think you still do not understand we claim the same...
There is a problem though. I can get lucky too, while you cannot. I might survive without summoning. You do not.
There is no "the same level of unluckiness" though. Probability does not work like that.
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angelito
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Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 26, 2005 08:36 PM |
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OK...i tried it again many times now. Not 1 time i was able to win it without summoning water elementals.
Best result i got was 40 sharpshooters surviving.
Spell went like this:
1. Summon waterelementals
my shot: 60 SS killed, 2 SS killed by fodder
938 SS left
2. Bless
my shot: 70 SS killed, 1 SS killed by fodder
867 SS left
3. Stoneskin
my shot: 70 SS killed, 2 SS killed by fodder
795 SS left
4. Frenzy
my shot: 155 SS killed, 3 SS killed by fodder
637 SS left
5. Frenzy
my shot: 155 SS killed, 1 SS killed by fodder
481 SS left
6. Frenzy
my shot: 155 SS killed, 1 SS killed by fodder
325 SS left
7. Frenzy
my shot: 137 SS killed
188 SS left
8. Forgetfullness
my shot: 65 SS killed
123 SS left
their shot: 38 SS killed
57 SS left on my side
9. Implosion
spell damage: 38 SS killed
my shot: 38 SS killed
47 SS left
their shot: 13 SS killed
44 SS left on my side
10. Airshield
my shot: 28 killed
19 SS left
their shot: 4 SS killed
40 SS left on my side
11. No spell
my shot: 19 SS dead
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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csarmi
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posted March 26, 2005 10:02 PM |
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>>OK...i tried it again many times now. Not 1 time i was >>able to win it without summoning water elementals.
>>Best result i got was 40 sharpshooters surviving.
This way (bless+stoneskin+frenzy) you actually have ZERO chance to win the fight without summoning. Your total damage is not random enough.
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dimis
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posted March 27, 2005 08:46 PM |
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Quote:
I think you still do not understand we claim the same...
There is a problem though. I can get lucky too, while you cannot. I might survive without summoning. You do not.
There is no "the same level of unluckiness" though. Probability does not work like that.
Well, there are differences to what we claim... After all, this conversation started because you liked the combination of pure Stone Skin + Frenzies, to my choice of Bless, Stone Skin + Frenzies. Now, more specifically, if someone summons at least once an elemental, means there are 7 times in a row where he can attack and as a result the strategy I proposed is better, sth you have already accepted. On the other hand, if someone does not summon elementals, then your strategy is better because it is expected for you to inflict more damage in the first 6 rounds. The problem is though, that you have to be very lucky so that on the 6th round you are facing about 320 SSs, sth that you can not possibly know in advance and as a result the summoning of elementals at least once is more or less, mandatory in most cases. (Hope I can write more on that within the following week accompanied by probabilities.)
As for the "same level of unluckiness" ... well I am afraid there is such a thing .... It means 2 or more events to be equiprobable: happen with the same probability . Suppose you have 2 dies:
1) One has numbers 2, 3 and 4 (each number appears twice or you can think of a die with 3 sides only) on its sides
2) while the other one is a normal die, meaning that its sides have numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.
Then the probability of tossing the first one 2 times and getting a sum of (less than or equal to) 4 is the same as tossing the second one 2 times and get a sum less than or equal to 4, which is about 11,1%. This is a good translation for the same level of unluckiness and this example can show you the effects of bounds. What are the chances for a man to roll the first die 2 times and the sum be strictly under 4? Well, it is 0%, while for the second die (normal die), chances still exist and are about 8,3%
The situation is not very different with normal distribution (which is hidden behind random generators) and you can find more info in introductory texts in probabilities.
Another way of viewing my position is that I care on worst case scenarios along with the expected ones. Perhaps I am deeply influenced for that behaviour from my cs studies where you are interested exactly on these situations when you analyze the complexity of various algorithms...
Quote:
>>OK...i tried it again many times now. Not 1 time i was >>able to win it without summoning water elementals.
>>Best result i got was 40 sharpshooters surviving.
This way (bless+stoneskin+frenzy) you actually have ZERO chance to win the fight without summoning. Your total damage is not random enough.
I don't know if your chances are zero (have to do the math and I am pretty bored now ...) but yes your chances are minimal and very close to zero (if they are above zero!)
As for the damage ... it is very well random! The problem is that bounds are tighter! You don't use another random number generator, do you?
A small advice (possibly irrelevant with the above!) for probabilities:
Do not look for one instance and miss the whole statistical picture... THINK BIG!
Regards,
- Dimis -
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
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posted March 27, 2005 09:14 PM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 27 Mar 2005
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Thank you, I am on phd math so that you know :-)
We have talked it over anyways.
I think everything is fine now.
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