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| Thread: A new revolutianry alignment of towns....!!! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted January 26, 2004 07:31 PM |
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I'm not saying that your ideas were crap 
I was fleshing out my original post to justify my choices and giving details that weren't apparent in a list.
It's just my opinion, and no-one else has posted anything about this particular little bit of the discussion yet, maybe they'll agree with you more than me (INFIDELS I'll slay you all!)
So keep that smile on your face dude, till the day we meet in battle!
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 27, 2004 03:19 AM |
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I believe the homm4 system was a great breakthrough in the series. But if I think about the two starting classes of each town, your proposals can be put to good use.
The names I didn’t like:
Aquatic.
Might: Trident Warrior…………sounds like a creature name
Shadow.
Might: Thief………..doesn’t sound mighty enough. Maybe assassin?
Magic: Twisted Druid………don’t like this adjective based classes. I think Witch is more suitable.
Inferno.
Might: Torturer………(?) Why not sadist? 
Desert:
Might: Nomad………a creature
Magic: Voodoo……voodoo what? Magic?
Aquatic:
Might: Amazon………How is an amazon connected with water? (exept that she probably drinks it)
Dungeon:
Might: Commander………too broad
Shadow:
Might: Banshee………..this is a spirit, a creature!
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted January 27, 2004 04:39 AM |
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I corrected myself on the trident warrior thing. And suggested witch for the sea town as well.
But this is your thread dude, and one of my faves in the whole site. Give us your views!
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted January 27, 2004 10:05 AM |
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I know I've made some stupid suggestions, because they weren't mine. I picked them, using Marelt_Ekiran's proposals. I thought that his ideas were very genious and I liked it. So I thought, to use some of his ideas (Commander...).
P.S. Sorry, if I offended your pride
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pixie
Hired Hero
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posted January 27, 2004 07:33 PM |
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sea witch for the aquatic town
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted January 27, 2004 07:45 PM |
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Or a marid. No, that's a creature. Anyway, do u know what's a marid???
P.S. if nobody answers, I'll say the answer TODAY...
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted January 28, 2004 12:37 AM |
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Merid? Never heard of it. Do you mean Mermaid or something else?
If it's Mermaid, i've got it in the Aquatic creatures list. Though it's Merman, but it's only a male Mermaid.
To Asmodean: I like your logic, but I can see no reason why we shouldn't use the classes from homm4. Good proposals!(exept tthe ones I mentioned I didnt like) 
If the homm4 variants are out i'm not sure if I can come up with better ones myself.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Styq
Known Hero
Grandmaster Leadership
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posted January 28, 2004 02:11 PM |
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Fortress Might: BEASTMASTER
BEASTMASTER is the Fortress might hero!
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Leadership is nothing but being a good actor,
just like bravery is nothing but being a fool
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted January 28, 2004 07:29 PM |
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Oh, oh, oh! I knew you don't know. If you'd bought "Fabulous Beasts & Demons" by Heinz Mode, you would know.
Marid is an elemental, a force, a god of water. In Hindu mythology it symbolizes Water.
All four elementals are:
Fire - Ifrit (or Efreet)
Water - Merid (or Marid)
Air - Djinn (or Genie)
Earth - Dao (or... Dao)
That's the short explanation. For further, I suggest you buying this awesome book.
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted February 11, 2004 02:40 AM |
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Sorry for the late reply, Svarog
Though a moderator is committed to cleaning up the forum as much as posting in it, I feel as though this post is a long time coming. Although, I see the discussion as continued without me, albeit on a different topic.
“And the +1 morale could have balanced it to 0. But the following problem showed up], but then I noticed that u get +1 morale for two good crits, and 0 morale for two crits from the same town. So, it would better be +1 morale if all the crits are from the same town. And 0 morale for crits that are both good/evil/neutral. Am I clear enough?”
Yes, I understand here, though I had to read it twice. I agree with your solution to the problem. Having a mere two creatures that are ‘good’ aligned shouldn’t really constitute +1 morale, anyway. Even though I am still against creatures having their own morale, that would be a nice way of implementing it. Though there shouldn’t be any bearing if the creatures are good, evil, or neutral, because if they were of the same type, it would always have a positive effect.
“If “neighboring alignments” means all good/evil/neutral towns, then morale=0. Note that I’m talking about two creatures,”
No, I am saying if Fortress is a neighbour to Dungeon, would the morale be 0 or +1? For example, a Dragon and a Hydra in the same army, they are not from the same town, but they are from neighbouring towns.
“For example, there is chaos, order, and life. Maybe the morale should go down another 1.”
This would be logical for a morale system based on the army, but not for a system based on the individual creature.”
Why not? The creatures represent the town’s morale, so it would be apt to for them to carry the same bonuses and penalties that their town would have. I don’t see how it differs here. All three creatures would dislike each other, and it would realistically lower morale more than if there were only 2 creatures of opposite alignments.
“The availability of spells isn’t connected with the number of towns. I can prove this. For example, when you play a single map scenario, there are e.g. 4 types of towns on the map.”
Yes, I agree now, I concede here that you are right. I think I may have miscommunicated a point here. I did not mean the availability of the spells, I did in fact intend to convey the total number of spells in the game. The total number of spells is certainly dependant on the number of towns if you are going to employ a system such as this.
“The availability of spells is connected with two ratios:
1. total number of spells:max. number of spells a town offers
2. total number of spells:max. number of spells the hero can learn”
I realise the mistake of my wording, and, had the availability of spells been what I was actually referring to, I am wrong here. Those two points are correct, and I agree entirely here.
Taking it even further, though, let us explore what the total number of spells is connected to, in rational format:
1. The Total number of spells – The Number of Towns that offer Spells
2. The Total number of spells – Capacity of Hero learning these spells
Mind you, this does only apply with the system you intend to employ, because many of the spells and spell schools are town and alignment based. If we utilise the elements spell system in Heroes II and III, then it would not apply.
“You can’t have that because the schools are not closely related with the towns like in homm4)”
Are you referring to your system? If so, I was always under the impression that your spell schools were somewhat closely linked with the alignments of towns, nearly as tightly as Heroes IV. Is this the case?
“If ¼ of life/death/order/life schools is shared with the elemental schools, and the rest (3/4) of all the schools are exclusive spells, then the total number of spells is 168 (much better).”
Yes, that is fair enough. It is clear now that you are not aiming for a complete replica of the Heroes IV spell system, and that 192 would not be a viable number due to the fact that you are amalgamating the Heroes III spell system into the Heroes IV system somewhat.
OK, after reviewing your post here, I have concocted a new number of the spells in the system, with more precision:
4 Elemental Schools:
¼ of total spells,
48 non-exclusive, shared spells
12 spells in each school
8 Alignment Related Schools
48 shared with elemental schools,
18 spells per school
This would lead to a total of 144 spells, similar to Heroes IV, but spread out more.
144/12 = 12, 12 for each school, plus the shared elemental schools = around 60 spells available researching one skill. So, if they can learn a total of 3 primary skills, the hero would be able to learn 84 spells. 144:84 = 1.714, whereas Heroes IV equals 1.69. Slightly higher would help.
“As I said, they can have 8 or 10 towns in the first edition and add the other 2 or 4 (but they have to be the towns from the middle: Desert, Fortress, Shadow, Aquatic) in the expansion. No disturbance whatsoever.”
Again, this relates back to the above discussion. But if there were to be another neutral town added, it could disturb the system? Yes or No? Also, if there were to be 13 towns, it would seem slightly unbalanced.
“I can see few other want to get into deep analysis of my system and I thank you for your time and effort.”
This also applies to you. There are very few who deal with the particulars of their town system, and merely care about how powerful the creatures are, and the hero types, etc. Not really that insightful, but providing a diagram and a magic school explanation is.
“Also, I read somewhere that you had sent some of the proposals to the Ubisoft team. Is there any chance that you have sent something from this thread also?”
Seeing as you have posted in my Heroes V: HC Variation thread, then you will be assured that your information that you posted there will be sent in.
NB: There will be some cleaning done in this thread, so the post count will drop soon.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Styq
Known Hero
Grandmaster Leadership
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posted February 11, 2004 03:13 PM |
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Quote:
I believe the homm4 system was a great breakthrough in the series. But if I think about the two starting classes of each town, your proposals can be put to good use.
The names I didn’t like:
Aquatic.
Might: Trident Warrior…………sounds like a creature name
Shadow.
Might: Thief………..doesn’t sound mighty enough. Maybe assassin?
Magic: Twisted Druid………don’t like this adjective based classes. I think Witch is more suitable.
Inferno.
Might: Torturer………(?) Why not sadist?
Desert:
Might: Nomad………a creature
Magic: Voodoo……voodoo what? Magic?
Aquatic:
Might: Amazon………How is an amazon connected with water? (exept that she probably drinks it)
Dungeon:
Might: Commander………too broad
Shadow:
Might: Banshee………..this is a spirit, a creature!
Aquatic
Might: Myrmilord
Shadow
Might: Assassin\Rogue
Magic: Lich\Negromancer
Inferno
Might: Demoniac (As always)\Diabolist
Desert[b/]
Might: Wanderer
Magic: Shaman
Aquatic
Might: Myrmilady
Dungeon
Might: Warlord\Overlord
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Leadership is nothing but being a good actor,
just like bravery is nothing but being a fool
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted February 13, 2004 08:41 PM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 18 Feb 2004
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“No, I am saying if Fortress is a neighbour to Dungeon, would the morale be 0 or +1? For example, a Dragon and a Hydra in the same army, they are not from the same town, but they are from neighbouring towns.”
Well, according to the conditions, the morale should be 0. They are not opposite to each other on any basis, and positive morale doesn’t apply in any situation, except for all creatures from the same town.
Quote:
“For example, there is chaos, order, and life. Maybe the morale should go down another 1.”
This would be logical for a morale system based on the army, but not for a system based on the individual creature.”
…All three creatures would dislike each other, and it would realistically lower morale more than if there were only 2 creatures of opposite alignments.
Fair enough. But what morale the creatures will have depends on what towns we are talking about. Chaos vs. Order gives -1 morale, but maybe at the same time the creatures are evil vs. good (Medusa (chaos, evil) vs. Mage (order, good)), so for those two another -1 morale should apply. Let’s say the third creature is Monk (good only). The Mage would be unaffected by its presence, while the medusa will get even additional -1 moral. So, end results: Medusa:-3, Monk:-1, Mage:-2.
“Taking it even further, though, let us explore what the total number of spells is connected to, in rational format:
1. The Total number of spells – The Number of Towns that offer Spells
2. The Total number of spells – Capacity of Hero learning these spells
Mind you, this does only apply with the system you intend to employ, because many of the spells and spell schools are town and alignment based. If we utilise the elements spell system in Heroes II and III, then it would not apply.”
You are absolutely right. But my system is not the same with homm4, nor it is similar with homm2 and 3. It’s in-between. That’s why you can add towns, but only a precise and pre-planned number of them. And that’s why rule 1 of your conditions doesn’t apply to my system. And spell schools ARE NOT town based, but they are alignment based, as you said. That’s why when you add towns, they should be added symmetrically to both opposite alignments. But, to complicate matters more , it’s not alignment based entirely, since you have the elemental schools.
“4 Elemental Schools:
¼ of total spells,
48 non-exclusive, shared spells
12 spells in each school
8 Alignment Related Schools
48 shared with elemental schools,
18 spells per school
This would lead to a total of 144 spells, similar to Heroes IV, but spread out more.
144/12 = 12, 12 for each school, plus the shared elemental schools = around 60 spells available researching one skill. So, if they can learn a total of 3 primary skills, the hero would be able to learn 84 spells. 144:84 = 1.714, whereas Heroes IV equals 1.69. Slightly higher would help.”
You seem to say there should be 8 alignment related schools. This is not the plan here. For that, we’d need a new diagram and a new thread probably. Also, it turns out that elemental schools have 12 spells, and alignment based – 18 spells each. This makes for some heroes to be able to learn more spells than others. And I don’t know how you got to 84 max. available spells for a hero. Anyway, try to criticize and improve the already present system, instead of proposing new systems.
If you are by any chance, sick and tired from posting here, please tell me. When you do that, I’ll send one last post where I’ll point out the advantages this system has and why I think Ubi should go with this one.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted February 17, 2004 01:35 PM |
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Edited By: Svarog on 17 Feb 2004
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"If you are by any chance, sick and tired from posting here, please tell me."
Sorry if you misunderstood me Styg. I wasn't referring to you, 2nd person plural. I was referring to Hydra.
Anyway, as long as there's anyone willing to reasonably discuss this proposal with well thought out arguments, I'll post here. And especially if it's a mod, and one of the best here, in my opinion, such as Hydra. Of course, I'm hoping that Ubi will notice something from here, which is why I try to give a thorough and logical explanation for my proposal. That's why we are all here, isn't it?
It's no reeason to be mad at me, because I criticized your way of forwarding your idea. I didn't say it was bad, I just said it was too long to read. (but I still read it, just for the record)
As you can see (if you read anything from the debate between me and Hydra), I think we are close to finishing this, in my opinion, inspiring discussion. Then I'll post just one more letter, and let this thread go into history. Much to your own pleasure.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Styq
Known Hero
Grandmaster Leadership
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posted February 17, 2004 03:37 PM |
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I didn't think you were referring to me. I was just giving u notice of the fact that everyone (including HyDrA) didn't pay attention to this thread any longer.
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Leadership is nothing but being a good actor,
just like bravery is nothing but being a fool
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted February 17, 2004 07:54 PM |
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Re-made towns
I re-made Svarog towns in new ones, which, I think, are better (it’s just my opinion). Well, this isn’t that new, because mostly, these were already used somewhere. Still, take a lil’ look:
Castle:
1. Peasant
2. Lancer
3. Marksman
4. Swordsman
5. Crusader
6. Monk
7. Champion
8. Cardinal
9. Paladin
10. Angel
Tower:
1. Gremlin
2. Cloud Sprite
3. Gargoyle
4. Golem
5. Mage
6. Arctic Bird
7. Sylph
8. Colossus
9. Valkyrie
10. Titan
Desert:
1. Fire Ant
2. Scorpion
3. Nomad
4. Nada
5. Manticore
6. Roc
7. Mummy
8. Sphinx
9. Genie
10. Phoenix
Rampart:
1. Gnome
2. Nymph
3. Centaur
4. Satyr
5. Pegasus
6. Elf
7. Druid
8. Unicorn
9. Dryad
10. Faerie Dragon
Shadow:
1. Rogue
2. Chameleon
3. Shade
4. Assassin
5. Werewolf
6. Amazon
7. Minotaur
8. Dendroid
9. Erinye
10. Chimera
Necropolis:
1. Ghoul
2. Skeleton
3. Zombie
4. Wraith
5. Vampire
6. Lich
7. Abomination (Warcraft 3)
8. Dread Knight
9. Grim Reaper
10. Undead Dragon
Dungeon:
1. Kobold
2. Troglodyte
3. Harpy
4. Evil Eye
5. Medusa
6. Eluryah
7. Dao (earth mage)
8. Manticore
9. Nightmare
10. Black Dragon
Inferno:
1. Imp
2. Gog
3. Torturer
4. Demon
5. Succubus
6. Incubus
7. Cerberus
8. Hell Priest
9. Efreet
10. Devil
Stronghold:
1. Berserker
2. Hobgoblin
3. Worg Rider
4. Orc
5. Boar
6. Ogre
7. Giant
8. Troll
9. Cyclops
10. Behemoth
Fortress:
1. Gnoll
2. Python
3. Lizardman
4. Beast
5. Witch
6. Serpentman (from Diablo 2)
7. Basilisk
8. Gorgon
9. Wyvern
10. Hydra
Aquatic:
1. Nixie
2. Nereid
3. Pirate
4. Merman (or Triton)
5. Hippocampus
6. Mermaid
7. Selkie (shape-shifting folk; turn humans into seals)
8. Kraken
9. Leviathan
10. Scylla
Conflux:
1. Air El.
2. Water. El.
3. Fire El.
4. Earth El.
5. Wind El.
6. Storm El.
7. Ice El.
8. Lava El.
9. Psychic El.
10. Will-o’-wisp
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted February 17, 2004 11:59 PM |
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Quote:
Ghoul - blood sucker
Actually, it's the vamps that suck blood. Ghouls eat flesh.
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Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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Styq
Known Hero
Grandmaster Leadership
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posted February 18, 2004 07:31 AM |
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Quote:
Inferno:
1. Imp
2. Gog
3. Torturer
4. Demon
5. Succubus
6. Incubus
7. Cerberus
8. Hell Priest
9. Efreet
10. Devil
#1 if you're saying Cerberus, then u mite as well say "Imps"
#2 3do got it all wrong, Cerberus is a shady creature of the dark greek underworld, it should either go in Necro or Shadow.
#3 What's an Incubus?
#4 WTF - Torturer, that's like saying "beast" it ain't mytho, scary, or detailed
#4 Hell Priest - why not the good-old Pit Lords?
#4 Damnit Regnus, it's Efreeti!!!
#5
1.Imp
2.Gog
3.Hell Hound
4.Demon
5.Succubus
6.Incubus
7.Pit Lord
8.Azer
9.Efreeti
10.Devil
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Leadership is nothing but being a good actor,
just like bravery is nothing but being a fool
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted February 18, 2004 06:16 PM |
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Ok, although I’d like to see more general discussion about the alignments, I can deal with this one also.
Regnus, you touched most of the points where I had doubts about which creature to go. But, now I’ll only focus on the creatures I don’t agree about. Don’t think that I prefer your revision to mine (because I explored a LOT before I post it), but beside the things I mention, it’s just a matter of refined taste, and I wouldn’t have any problems if Ubi went with your version.
Castle: Cardinal. Ok, this guy seems too similar with the Monk, even if he uses magic. Paladin: Same goes here. Looks too similar with Crusader. ‘Bout Castle I can only accept creatures with different weapons, not just names.
Tower: Ok, I can live with it.
Desert: Fire Ant? Noooo. Not too fond of giant animals. Nada. I believe Naga is what you meant. Even so, Naga ain’t no desert creature. They are water spirits from Indian mythology. Poor them, you putting them in the desert. Roc. Yes, I believe this is the one creature I miss in my towns. But I put a Thunderbird instead, so..
Rampart: Nice corrections. That was exactly the first version I made, but I changed it later.
Shadow: Rogue and Assassin. Not much difference between these 2. Chameleon. I said what I meant about animals.
Necropolic: Ok, one corection only. Though I think Ghoul=Zombie more or less.
Dungeon: Eluryah. Well, the two sisters of Medusa were Stheno and Euryale (slight variation in name). I see no point in making a one big happy family here. Dao. Don’t know what this guy looks like. If he’s just a mage, than no point putting him in.
Inferno: Torturer. Naaaaaaaah….
Stronghold: Fine with me.
Fortress: Beast. Ok, I feel the need to explain this one, because guys think it’s too generic. I need a name for it, but I can clearly picture it in my head. It’s a big man-beast, with lion’s mane, hair on his back and chests, small tusks. Ogre might be most similar to it, but it’s far from the same thing.
Aaquatic (Atlantis): Selkie. Man turning into seal while walking. I’ll laugh my ass off if i see that.
Conflux: Looks good.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted February 18, 2004 07:14 PM |
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Maybe I could agree with you, but I don't think Euryale is bad, because Medusa used to have wings, while Euryale don't.
Anyway, I would not use any of these towns to mention in my alignment post (going to finish at the end of February, long post ), because I have many times different things to think about.
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CoolFool
Hired Hero
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posted February 19, 2004 12:26 PM |
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TO Svarog - "Man turning into seal while walking. I’ll laugh my ass off if i see that." OR a sea-cow - but with udder? like land ones and he could have a special milk attack?
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