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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Americans and ignorance...
Thread: Americans and ignorance... This thread is 8 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT»
binabik
binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted July 25, 2004 12:34 AM bonus applied.

I haven't posted here in a while. But hey, I have more time on my hands than I've had in a long time and I have something to say.

Zendy, good posts. I was thinking the same things.

With the American bashing that goes on, one thing to ask is this. If you were relocated to the US and lived in the same environment as Americans, would you be any different? In this context, "you" doesn't mean you as individuals, but you, collectively, as a society, culture or nation. I already know how many would answer, a resounding "no".

Referring specifically to Europe (but I believe this is also true of the world in general) I believe the answer is "yes", you would be the same. This isn't a social theory applied to some hypothetical situation. There has been a huge case study about this with pretty clear results. It's not hypothetical because it really happened. You really *DID* relocate to the U.S. and live in the same environment. And you did it in very large numbers.

We *ARE* you. You are looking in a mirror.

We are large numbers of British relocated to a new land and a new beginning. We are the French, the Germans, the Spanish and the Dutch. Scandinavians, Austrians, Italians, Greeks and Poles. You came here to escape religious persecution or violent revolution. Maybe you came here for economic reasons or to escape a tyrannical government. Or maybe you came here simply looking for adventure. But regardless of why you came, you did come.

You came to this new beginning. You of various backgrounds and cultures came here. You hoped for a better life.

You declared independence from the existing world. You actually had the guts to tell a major world power to f***-off. And you fought them. And by some miracle you actually won.

From among you, leaders arose. Those leaders were also you. Your leaders created a framework for a better way, a better nation. It wasn't a traditional nation. It was independent states, united under a common banner. A government with a minor role to look out for the common cause of the various states. Some argued that there shouldn't even be a national government, that the states should remain wholely independent. But in the end you came up with a plan. You decided and you wrote it down.

So here you are, a group of people in a new land. It's a fertile land with excellent farming. It has water, it has fishing, it has plentyful timber and all sorts of other resources. You have ties with the world for trade. You have the knowledge and abilities you brought with you. You have courage and motivation. You have the opportunity to form a new life and a new government. A chance to form a country and fix all the things you believed were wrong with your native lands. You did the best you could. You took the opportunity of a new beginning and ran with it. You truly beleived this was a new start, that you could do better. After all, this was a rare opporunity for humankind to start over, to learn from lessons past.


Fast forward. Here we Americans are. We are you. European history is American history. All the wars. All the empires. Our culture. Our core beliefs. We are you. Our history is your history. After all, it really hasn't been all that many generations since you first came here.

So what did you do after you came here? Did you do your best? Did you acknowledge your own human frailties and weaknesses? Did you admit you are not perfect? Did you dream? Did you dream of a better place, a better life? Did you truly make your best effort to realize that dream? Did you take this opportunity for granted? Did you let it slip away or did you accomplish something for the better?



So what became of you anyway? What happened with this great social experiment? How did you fare? Did it work out the way that you hoped?

My hope is that the jury is lenient, because they are judging themselves. This experiment wasn't the first time we humans have attempted to start afresh, and it probably won't be the last. But the opportunity doesn't present itself very often.

Please jury, don't judge yourselves too harshly.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 25, 2004 12:38 AM

Let me just put it this way.

90% of people in any country are idiots.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted July 25, 2004 12:54 AM

Quote:
Let me just put it this way.

90% of people in any country are idiots.


Oh, but there is where you are wrong!  In China, only 9 people out of every 10 are idiots.  In Russia, the number is as high as 900 out of 1000.  Ethiopia has a number somewhere in between -- 90 out of 100.  In Columbia, the ratio of idiots to non-idiots is 9:1, while in Italy, 10% of people are not idiots.  A recent study in India showed that for every 10 non-idiots, there were 90 idiots, which contrasts with neighboring Pakistan where the incidence of idiocy per 100,000 is a shocking 90,000!  You see, it is foolish to think that all countries are alike.
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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted July 25, 2004 01:41 AM

That's a QP worthy post by Binabik. Maybe the best one in this thread.
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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted July 25, 2004 03:58 AM

Quote:
I don't know what this thread is about and I don't care...


The best post in the thread!
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>

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Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted July 25, 2004 05:00 AM

If you Americans dont care about other people and their opinions why do you get so upset when they criticize you?
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And now to the next post.

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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted July 25, 2004 05:04 AM

Because it's Rude.
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Shirastro
Shirastro


Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
posted July 25, 2004 05:20 AM

Oh shut up Dingo......and btw i love your new signature
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted July 25, 2004 05:38 AM

If they were accurate critisizms of me and most Americans, I would understand.  But, spouting off stereotypes as fact is obnoxious and has no place in serious discussion.
If you want to compare school systems, compare systems that have things in common.  Europe and the US have completely different education systems.  In the US, schools take everyone, good and bad.  As I understand it, in Europe, there are different schools based on performance.  Just at my school I see people that are only there because of the law.  And there is that minority that acctually want to learn, and do.  It's wrong, it needs to be fixed, but it is no reason to bash an entire nationality because of a few mistaken statistics.

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Shai-Hulud
Shai-Hulud


Known Hero
Sicomor
posted July 25, 2004 05:41 AM
Edited By: Shai-Hulud on 24 Jul 2004

Quote:
I haven't posted here in a while. But hey, I have more time on my hands than I've had in a long time and I have something to say.

Glad to have you back!

Quote:
With the American bashing that goes on, one thing to ask is this. If you were relocated to the US and lived in the same environment as Americans, would you be any different? In this context, "you" doesn't mean you as individuals, but you, collectively, as a society, culture or nation. I already know how many would answer, a resounding "no".

Sincerely?! Depends whom you'll take from this country. There enough gypsies and money-thirsty guys from the high-class.As for us the normal people, the people whom I interact, most really would say no.

Quote:

We *ARE* you. You are looking in a mirror.

We are large numbers of British relocated to a new land and a new beginning. We are the French, the Germans, the Spanish and the Dutch. Scandinavians, Austrians, Italians, Greeks and Poles. You came here to escape religious persecution or violent revolution. Maybe you came here for economic reasons or to escape a tyrannical government. Or maybe you came here simply looking for adventure. But regardless of why you came, you did come.

Noooooo...You came beacuse you were gold-thirsty.I think everybody knows the history of U.S.(there are too many films about it, the glorius american military mounted troops who defende so well against the evil pagan tribes).All the stuff from Thanks Giving Day to extermining all tribes, leaving them a damn national park where they seat like sea-fishes in a bowl.

Quote:
You came to this new beginning. You of various backgrounds and cultures came here. You hoped for a better life.

Yup...There was so much culture...So many nations( of low class people) reunited there having the same goal:G-O-L-D.

Quote:

So here you are, a group of people in a new land. It's a fertile land with excellent farming. It has water, it has fishing, it has plentyful timber and all sorts of other resources. You have ties with the world for trade.


You have the blood of thousands of people on the ground.
Quote:

It is estimated that over a million people lived in Cuba before the arrival of the Europeans. Twenty-five years later there were only 2,000 left. Large numbers had been killed, while others died of starvation, disease, committed suicide or had died from the consequences of being forced to work long hours in the gold mines.

You had the lives of thousands of humans in your hands.After all the centuries the wound of slavery was closing, but some people still wanted one of the biggest mankind's flaws to remain.
Quote:
After the arrival of the Europeans there was a sharp decline in the local population of most of the islands in the Caribbean Sea. This created a problem for the Europeans as they needed labour to exploit the natural resources of these islands. Eventually the Europeans came up with a solution: the importation of slaves from Africa. By 1540, an estimated 10,000 slaves a year were being brought from Africa to replace the diminishing local populations.
The death-rate amongst slaves was high. To replace their losses, plantation owners encouraged the slaves to have children. Child-bearing started around the age of thirteen, and by twenty the women slaves would be expected to have four or five children. To encourage child-bearing some population owners promised women slaves their freedom after they had produced fifteen children. Slaves were in the fields from sunrise to sunset and at harvest time they did an eighteen hour day. Women worked the same hours as the men and pregnant women were expected to continue until their child was born. Only a month's rest was allowed for recovery from child-bearing. The women then carried the child on their backs while they worked in the fields. Around the age of five, slave children would also be expected to work on the plantation.



Quote:
Fast forward. Here we Americans are. We are you. European history is American history. All the wars. All the empires. Our culture. Our core beliefs. We are you. Our history is your history. After all, it really hasn't been all that many generations since you first came here.

Maybe...But in a time so short you forgot that you are europeans.Some of you say also they are not anymore.That, what you read earlier is HISTORY of U.S.

Please jury, don't judge yourselves too harshly.

Edit:
Quote:

In 1850 Congress passed the Fugitive Slave Law. Only John P. Hale, Charles Sumner, Salmon Chase and Benjamin Wade voted against the measure. The law stated that in future any federal marshal who did not arrest an alleged runaway slave could be fined $1,000. People suspected of being a runaway slave could be arrested without warrant and turned over to a claimant on nothing more than his sworn testimony of ownership. A suspected black slave could not ask for a jury trial nor testify on his or her behalf.

Again history and a little of democracy!!!
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted July 25, 2004 07:09 AM

It doesn't seem like you know very much about US history...
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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted July 25, 2004 10:55 AM

He knows it, he's just pointing out some of the less rose-tinted aspects of it

BTW, I don't know about the rest of Europe, but in England at least we're gradually been trying to get rid of the many tiered system of schools
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted July 25, 2004 09:22 PM

Back Up Here, I Don't Think So PrivateHudson

Don't change the subject. This ain't no thread to be jabberin bout Brittish ignorance. The title says it's American ignorance bloke. I'll not have you stealing my ignorant american thunder! Shove off mate!
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted July 25, 2004 11:13 PM

No no! I want to be ignorant too, you know you want me too
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Pirahna
Pirahna


Famous Hero
or not ...
posted July 25, 2004 11:36 PM

My first long post and my second opinion :

a)Romania vs USA

1. Romania - it's not a small country but is unknown because the lack of interest the other countrys show ... for

example ... in a movie with Dracula , the hunter said : "I'm going to the Carpathian (?) Mountains in Europe ... to

kill count bla bla ..." ... well ... these mountains are in Romania ... Eastern Europe ... or a better example ...

J.K.Rowling with Harry Potter ... : "My cousin Charlie grows dragons in Romania !"... come on !!! ... i'm here since

i was born (15 years , 6 months and 2 week ago) , i've seen about 2/3 of my country and i saw no dragon ...
paranoia ...
the subject was about America vs. Romania or so i understood ... ok ... all the romanians learn the whole map in the

7th grade ... i mean i knew where every little country in the world was ... and of course we know the USA ... ok ...

my self-answered-later question is "Why don't the americans know where Romania or Bulgary (Bulgaria ???) is but they

know that France is in Europe and China is in Asia ???" ... i understand they don't really learn something at school

... they are mostly based on sports , science , social .... something else than geography , math , english , not to

mention history ... i think romanians learn more history about the USA than americans learn about their own country

... anyway ... at least Europe has Romania on it's map ... and at least Europe admits that romanians are smart (90%

true) , winners and that we should be known !!! (NOTE: every year romanian kids like myself (in the future) win gold

medals at computer contests (generally programming) , world olympics , maybe someday football (soccer) ... so if

Asia knows Romania ... so should the Western side ...

(with no offence for the USA and it's inhabitants ...)
2.United States of America - what does this country's name mean ? it means all the cultures and races and languages

in one place , toghether ... i don't agree to that ... in the war USA recruited lots and lots of geniuses or

inventors , developers from other countryes (?spelling?) ... why ? ... because they couldn't do it for theirselves

... because americans have money , they think they're kings of the world but they grow more and more into stupid

rich folkes ... about history ... they learn their children to remember all their former president's names ... come

on ... that's just plain stupid ... why should you learn the names of USA's former rulers ? ... does it help in the

future ? ... i for one don't think so ...
i admit that they are the most advanced country in the world ... but so would the other countryes if they had money

... honestly ... if i were to leave this country ... i would go there ... here in Romania as a programmer you make

let's say about 300-1000$ if you're lucky !! ... there if you wash dishes you make this kind of money ... and if you

are a programmer you'll make over 3000...but let's resume ... this topic is about ignorance ... why do americans

ignore the other countryes ? ... maybe it's because they think so high of themselves ? ... maybe it's because they

have more money or the arsenal to flatten the world ? ... for me America=PROFIT ... i mean that's why they attacked

IRAQ ... for oil ... he who has oil rules ... they fought the great wars to show their supremacy ... all americans

who will read this will imagine that i'm a rich kid in an appartment at the 28th floor on an AMD 64 4000+ ... well ,

i'm not ... we don't even have flats higher than 20-22 floors ... but we aren't a poor country ...
ignorance is taking over if it didn't finish by now ... i don't think the american kids really care about other

countryes ... not to mention the third world ones ... anyway ... what's with the third world or something stuff ?

... it sounds like third hand (after second hand) ... end

b)World and ignorance
as money and fame grow ... so does ignorance !

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The Pirahna - wow guys ... my posts keep decreasing ... lol ... i can't post

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Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted July 25, 2004 11:45 PM

Could you please make that post easier to read?
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Pirahna
Pirahna


Famous Hero
or not ...
posted July 25, 2004 11:49 PM

Dingo ... get a translator ... you didn't met me so you don't know me ... i have lots to say but very very short time ... so ... read slowly ... very very very slow ... k ?
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The Pirahna - wow guys ... my posts keep decreasing ... lol ... i can't post

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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted July 26, 2004 12:15 AM

From what I can understand, Pirahna, 85-90% of what you wrote about the US is complete fiction.
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"OOOOOOO!"."  
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Pirahna
Pirahna


Famous Hero
or not ...
posted July 26, 2004 12:25 AM

Maybe i am right and you're just trying tp protect your country ...

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The Pirahna - wow guys ... my posts keep decreasing ... lol ... i can't post

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Aquaman333
Aquaman333


Famous Hero
of the seven seas
posted July 26, 2004 01:00 AM

How does the United States of America mean "all languages, cultures, and races"? It refers to the original American colonies being unified.

And we grow stupid because we have money? That is quite possibly the most ridiculous logic I've ever heard.

So no, I'm not protecting my country, what you wrote is a load of lies. It's your unfounded opinion. I'm a Japanese American. I lived in Japan for the first 13 years of my life and I visit every summer, they are no dumber or smarter as a whole in Japan than America. I moved to America with my parents because quite frankly it's an ideal nation. Rich, powerful, and contrary to popular belief has a good population of intelligent people. I lived in Italy for two years and I can't say the same. So in conlusion, America may be arrogant, but we are definitely not ignorant. It's my opinion that we have every right to be arrogant, but I won't go into that.
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"OOOOOOO!"."  
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