|
| Thread: Debate: Homosexuality is genetic in origin |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
posted August 28, 2004 02:57 AM |
bonus applied. |
Edited By: Svarog on 27 Aug 2004
|
Poll Question:
Debate: Homosexuality is genetic in origin
Resolution: Homosexuality is genetic in origin.
-The affirmative side is defended by Asmodean, a gay mod, who's gonna lose badly this one. 
- The negative side is defended by Svarog, a member with uncanny attraction to the negative things in life.
Since this is the first debate, some points must be made:
* All positions represented in the debate are not necessarily personal opinions of the debaters.
* Mods are required to clean all posts made from people not participating until the debate is finished.
* Dont vote until the debate is finished. Vote for the one who you think better defended his position, not for the one who defended the side that you personally agree with.
* Refer to "Guild of Debaters" thread for any questions about the format.
The thread is now open for the affirmative side to make the opening speech. Successive speeches are expected to follow within 48 hours after each post is made.
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
posted September 03, 2004 05:15 PM |
|
|
Vot for me. I'm good looking!!
Okay here we go with the Affirmative argument.
I believe that homosexuality IS genetic in origin.
Homosexuality is the physical emotional and sexual attraction to a member of one’s own sex. It is prevalent in ALL countries and societies in the world and is believed to be present in approximately 10% of all people, with the same demographic in each country.
1st argument.
If it was a ‘learned’ behaviour, then one would expect these results to be skewed, with some societies showing a higher prevalence than others, but the 10% seems to be a universal figure.
This is consistent with other recessive genes in human populations, such as red hair or green eyes.
But how could it remain in the population for so long? If it was a recessive gene shouldn’t it have ‘died off?’
Well not necessarily, if it was paired of like: H-h, where H = straight and h = gay.
Say that you parents both had this genetic make up. Then by drawing that little genetics square you would find out that there’s a 25% chance of H-H, a 50% chance of H-h and a 25% chance of h-h embryos.
So potentially 25% of all people in the world would be gay. However, the offspring of H-H parents will never transmit the gay gene (they don’t have it), which brings this number down…..perhaps even down to….10%?!!
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
posted September 05, 2004 01:17 AM |
|
Edited By: Svarog on 4 Sep 2004
|
I am supposed to ask Asmo some questions now, according to the traditional format. But due to the specific nature of the topic, I have no questions. Now let’s go on with the negative side of the story.
The mare presence of homosexuality in most cultures is not a proof of its genetic origin. Furthermore, this point about a constant percentage (10%) prevalent in all geographical areas and chronologically through all epochs is not quite valid. It is clear today that more liberal societies show a higher rate of gay population. The gay population percentage in San Francisco is significantly higher than other cities, and even more compared to very conservative cultures, such as Iran or Afghanistan for example. The studies mentioned above are of recent origin, conducted in countries predominantly from the Western culture, and in a time of prevailing global world culture. And yet they don’t account for those traditionally more conservative cultures.
Even more, that theory is not justified from the more credible historical perspective, when cultures were more authentic and heterosexual conformist attitudes prevailed. Certainly, the number of homosexuals was not nearly the fabulous 10% in the time of the Inquisition for example. Heck, it wasn’t even close to that all the time up until the past several decades ago. And now lets go back further in the time of Ancient Greece. If homosexuality was genetical, then the Greeks would have hardly survived until present days. Back then it was common for all young boys to engage in sexual experiences with older males as a part of their becoming to manhood. Even more, the Greeks were known for the lustful festivals they held when orgies and promiscuitive behaviors were frequent. It is very logical to conclude that their culture accepted and practiced homosexuality on a large scale. Hmmm, what ever happened to those 10%? And its irrational to believe that homosexuality in Greece was forced somehow by those 10%, in spite of the majority being straight.
The second point Asmodean made with the bit of genetical mathematics there is also a bit flawed. Firstly, one can easily claim that any characteristic has a genetic background. No matter what the frequency of occurrence. Even someone’s talent for playing tennis theoretically can be genetical. Apparently it’s not.. Therefore, the possibility for genetic origin doesn’t prove anything.
Within a given population any trait can be maintained on a constant level, provided there are no outside interferences. So the entire calculations made for the alleles, and dominant and recessive genes are of no use. [Asmo’s calculations suppose an equal number of heterosexual and homosexual genes in the general population in the first place (which is not the case), and then the projected percent (25%) is magically reduced to 10%.] If homosexuality is present with 10% in the global population (no matter whether its recessive or dominant gene), then it stays constant that way (if, as I said, there are no outside factors).
However, the trait examined here has a “suicidal tendency”. Meaning, in genetics some traits exhibit a “fitness cost” which is the likeliness of the gene being transmitted to the next generation, i.e. reduces the person’s chance of procreating. Healthy and normal genes have a fitness cost of 0%, while a fitness cost of 1% would mean that the gene would die out in hundred generations; a cost of 50% within 2 generations and so on. The supposed “gay gene” also posses this fitness cost. (Studies show that today fitness cost for gay genes is as high as 80%!) Now, if homosexuality was genetical (and therefore present since the earliest times), it would have to disappear many times by now. As far as I know, it’s increasing rather than disappearing.
Where then lays the reason for homosexuality? My job here is only to show where it doesn’t, but there are some other theories which might help proving that. Our sexuality is identified with an object, whether it’s a male or a female. Certainly, a XY zygote doesn’t have images of a pen!s inside, so that we can claim the genes determine homosexual desires. Preconceived images of sexual objects cannot exist in the genome before its phenotype is expressed. What is genetical here, is the sexuality, and only later in life does that sexuality apply to certain objects, whether it be men, women, both men and women, even dogs, horses, socks and use your imagination for the others. You don’t suppose there are genes which determine our sexual attraction to all those things, do you?
According to this theory (Freud), essentially, humans are not heterosexual, but they are sexual (with a minority of asexuals also). Or if you prefer, all humans are bisexual, and only suppress their homosexual nature due to society’s conformist patterns.
Defending the heterosexual/homosexual dichotomy on a genetical base, doesn’t explain all the other alternative sexual identities very reasonably, primarily bisexuality, and also pedophilia, bestiality, various fetishes etc. It is common thinking today that these are deviant occurrences. But if we adhere to that logic, then homosexuality as well would be a deviant occurrence. The society’s traditional structure and gender roles, subtly shaping our sexuality since the earliest stages of infancy, are what brings the number of heterosexuals up to the dominant percent that is now, and not the “straight” gene, as opposed to the other “flawed” ones.
These two arguments, I believe are enough to disprove the theory that homosexuality is genetic in origin.
Asmodean, any questions?
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
|
|
posted September 05, 2004 08:57 PM |
|
|
Thread cleaned.
Posts moved to Gay People
Keep it up guys, interesting stuff.
I'll delete this post if you want...
____________
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted October 03, 2004 05:28 PM |
|
|
Touching on some of the points that Svarog brought up about my last post, this will be short and to the point.
Svarog wrote "Our sexuality is identified with an object, whether it’s a male or a female. Certainly, a XY zygote doesn’t have images of a pen!s inside, so that we can claim the genes determine homosexual desires. Preconceived images of sexual objects cannot exist in the genome before its phenotype is expressed. What is genetical here, is the sexuality, and only later in life does that sexuality apply to certain objects, whether it be men, women, both men and women, even dogs, horses, socks and use your imagination for the others. You don’t suppose there are genes which determine our sexual attraction to all those things, do you?"
It is the two points that he brings up here that I would like to comment on, drawing examples from the animal world.
If sexualism is unlearned, but sexuality IS learned, then how can we account for the mating rituals that many animals express.
Pre-emptively combatting the 'they learn from their peers' argument I can tell you that studies of animals as widely varied as birds, snakes and fish have shown that even in isolation these courtship rituals do take place.
Therefore we can infer from this that sexuality and not just sexualism is 'hardwired' or genetic.
On a more comic second note, dogs that like to hump cushions prefer their 'usual' cushion to a replacement. When their usual cushion is not available they will take the cushion that is roughly the same size and shape as their old one. Having the same fabric has also been a factor.
So just like humans, both male and female seem to have a particular 'type' that they are attracted to - blonds, blue eyes, male, female - so too do dogs.
While none of these points point out that homosexuality is genetic, what they do is shed light on the fact that many aspects of sexuality ARE.
The question I want to ask is 'why should homosexuality be different?' and I venture that it is because of social taboos rather than social conditioning.
Edit: PS - excuse the lateness of the reply and 1000 apologies to Svarog for making him wait so long.
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted October 07, 2004 01:27 AM |
|
|
Finally. Let’s see how many months it will take for your next one.
Expanding on my second argument, Asmodean mentioned that the way many animals act (esp. in their mating rituals) is enough to prove that sexuality too is genetic. However, also so many other behaviors point to the fact that there isn’t a genetic conformity concerning these, especially in more complex species, including humans.
And while we can expect a paramecium not to have a social sexuality on its own, but instead, a complete genetic reproductive guidance, we cant expect that for dogs, dolphins, lions… I’ve seen dogs mating ranging from male dominance to female aggressiveness, even seen gay dogs (and cats – and I have a footage of those  ). Who gives us the right to deny these creatures their social sexuality, which could be just as complex as our own? Or are we to expect that this incredible variance of behaviors is all genetic too?
Oh, and about the dogs and their cushions, I suppose you’re not suggesting that the dog’s choice of a cushion is genetical too, in which case that example is out of place. If you were however, and making that paralel with homosexuality, I wonder what my genetic attraction to cushions is. Do I like them red, blue, leather… Now, if anyone finds this reasonable, please tell me. Instead, hasn’t it occurred to you that the dog’s genetic predisposition is to be aggressive, so it manifests itself by actions such as: humping cushions, eating shoes, tearing apart your playboy/playgirl etc, all depending on the puppy’s surroundings?
Ok, we realize that knowing what drives animal behaviors is a step further of realizing what drives our own behavior, which is still debatable, as we can see.
So going back on that, no humans experience courting ritual in the genetic sense, so we’d be forced to conclude that there’s very little genetics in human sexuality, aside from the sexualism itself. There’s still no logical explanation from Asmodean as to how can homosexuality be something more than ordinary social manifestation of sexualism, nor about the logical fallacies (such as other alternative sexualities) arising with that notion.
Quote:
The question I want to ask is 'why should homosexuality be different?' and I venture that it is because of social taboos rather than social conditioning.
Oh, by all means, I absolutely agree about the social taboos around homosexuality. And you have my full support here that they should be utterly rejected, since above all, we were all born as sexuals, and only got the prefix homo or hetero after several years of social intervention.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted October 15, 2004 08:13 PM |
|
|
Okay in closing, I'd first off like to say that while the information I have put forward about the mating rituals comes from scientific research, whereas Svarog's comments about blue and leather cushions comes from speculation
But I'd like to tell you a story.
It's a story of a boy about 7 or 8. When he was this young age he found out what the term 'gay' meant. And no, we're not talking happy here.
And he thought to himself 'ah, that's what I am then. I'm gay'.
Because the boy in our story had never looked at a girl and thought 'I want to kiss her', quite the opposite in fact.
And then he grew up a bit further, and at the tender age of 14 he thought, well lets see what sex with girls is like.
So the young innocent boy of our story lost his virginity to a likely girl from his area.
We'll not go into the details.
He didn't like it.
How do I know all this stuff?
The answers simple.
That boy was me!
So it's fine to talk about 'learned social behaviours' and 'mating habits'. It sounds all nice and technical doesn't it?
It hits a bit closer to home where I'm standing.
I have one final question for you all.
If I could 'learn' to be gay.......could you?
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted November 10, 2004 02:11 AM |
|
|
Closing Speech - negative
It is still not clear what causes homosexuality. If it was, we wouldn’t be here, discussing various theories for that (even my refutation with the cushions is scientifically supported, though not a very scientific way of telling it, the way i put it )
When I say genetical cause is not likely, I don’t rule out the detrimental psychological effects on a developing mind a young child under 7 may have, so we’re not talking about a conscious learning of homosexuality, but a process of subtle programming of the mind, a process which also includes recognizing shapes, colors, faces, “getting used” to gravity (all kids “instinctively” know that objects “fall”), up and down, causality, many things that you don’t remember exactly when you learned them. I believe it is this tender age, when children learn of differences between sexes, the time when their sexuality is basically formed.
Overall, I think Asmodean failed to prove the supposed strong links between genes and homosexuality, and even more, to try and explain the many cases of non-binary sexuality (bisex, sexual deviances…) with genetics.
I’m aware that “happy people” firmly believe and try to prove that homosexuality has genetical roots, primarily because it’s a very strong argument against homophobia and stereotypes, since if that wasn’t their choice, they cant be blamed for their differences.
But I’m not implying a possibility for a choice either; it’s certain that no sane individual would choose to be cast away by society and loved ones just like that. Perhaps, we’re all not that different as some think we are, and we’re all victims of the society and the way it made us, without giving us the chance to choose nor change what we’ve become. However, let’s not allow science to become victim of society, but let us search for the objective truth cause only its discovery can bring us closer to breaking the stereotypes and becoming a specie of equals.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted November 10, 2004 02:19 AM |
|
|
Debate finished - if anyone at all remembers what was this thread about
OK, this hasnt been a debate as i imagined it. nevertheless, bravo for me and asmodean for finishing our very first debate. or shame on us for the pace. whatever.
i would prefer if people dont vote up there for this debate, mainly because i really pressed asmo hard to finish it (almost aggressively so), so he didnt have the time to show himself in his best light. he did use his entire time doing smth else, but when i told him to write the speeches he took less than 10 minutes. if thats ok with him, i'd rather people post their opinions and how they feel about the issue here and maybe continue the discussion further.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
|
posted November 12, 2004 09:01 AM |
|
|
My 2 cents...pull up a chair!
To determine if homosexuality is a "nature or nurture" phenomenon is like trying to get blood from a stone. There are so many arguments and examples that could be used to support each point of view that I wish go through a few of these AND THEN propose another theory altogether.
The reason I mention this is because I know many gay people, men & women, and know how they "discovered" their homosexuality. These experiences range from early in life (elementary), to phases of experimentation (high school/university/college), and even as some mid-life crisis's (in their 40's).
#1 - Early in life, some of my gay acquaintances and other heterosexual friends could tell that they liked others of the same sex as more than just friends. Many even had "special friends" with whom they would try different things (touching & talking about feelings) on a regular basis. A few of these people stopped the practise and determined it to be a simple curiosity and moved on to focus on the opposite gender. Unfortunately, other acquaintances were discovered by their parents or other friends and were scolded for their behaviour. A few were even betrayed by their "special friends". So, some of these people subverted any homosexual tendencies that they had until they either started resurfacing later in their lives or were completely removed from their self-awareness. On the other hand, a small minority of my acquaintances continued in their exploration and later labelled themselves as "gay".
So, do these examples support either Svarog's or Asmodean's arguments? Well, for that we would have to consider that natural curiosity was the force driving these gay acquaintances and heterosexual people to try out the experience. Now, the essential question is: What triggered certain individuals to continue the experience instead of moving on to the opposite sex? I believe that the answer is not Genetics, nor is it Society.
#2 - In early adulthood, some of my gay acquaintances...much like Asmodean...figured out that they didn't enjoy the opposite sex until they had their first fully sexual experience with someone. At this point, many turned away and did not look back, but others were confused and began to live bisexually. On another note, a few additional people were living a heterosexual lifestyle and eventually gave into their curiosity and experimented with someone of the same gender. Those who didn't like it and would not do it again, do not (and still don't) consider themselves gay. But of those who found the experience natural and pleasant, some adjusted their lifestyle and labelled themselves "gay" or "bi". Again, some hid this difference within themselves, whereas others embraced the new discovery despite the objections of friends and/or family.
Although the driving force behind these people's experimentation might be somewhat different than those who did it at a younger age, I find that these examples do not support either Svarog's or Asmodean's arguments. I believe the trigger that determined who remained heterosexual and who embraced their "bi" or homosexuality was once again neither Social or Genetic.
#3 - Even though I only have a few acquaintances (2) as reference for this timeframe, some people only discover their homosexuality in Mid-life. The first person simply deduced that she would probably prefer being intimate with women because she didn't enjoy being with men anymore. This was long after she had a child and after many failed relationships with men. The other realised that he had ignored his true sexual identity in order to satisfy his parents' & society's preferences. This occurred after his suppressed emotions were manifesting themselves in violent outbursts and self-abuse.
In these examples, there was no issue of a driving force towards experimentation because my gay acquaintances simply accepted their homosexuality as a part of who they were. What brought about this natural acceptance is the issue, and I in both cases, I cannot see Genetics or Society being responsible.
Although someone could argue that each of my examples is a clear case of Homosexuality being a Genetic trait or a Social manifestation, I am convinced that it exists for neither of the reasons. I believe that people are either born gay, discover that they are gay through experimentation, or simply decide that they are gay; because it is their destiny to do so.
I am not referring to the romantic notion of Destiny that we often see in movies, television, or in books; but to the concept that in each of us is a spirit that wants to EXPERIENCE life from different perspectives. In order to achieve this goal, our spirits "reincarnate" themselves by choosing a pre-Destined existence that will broaden their perspective. They enter this world inside of us, with a pretty good idea of what we will be like and what we will go through as a result of who we are. Our spirits do not, however, know exactly what our lives will be like because that would not serve their purpose. "Homosexual", like so many other labels that people are given (i.e. Rich, Poor, Happy, Sad, Crippled, Healthy, etc.), is a term that cannot simply be explained to our spirits, but must be experienced to understand. So, throughout our lives our spirits communicate directly with us through our minds, bodies, and subconscious in order to bring about the experiences that they seek.
I have read many books based on this philosophy and so I believe the best argument that explains why people are gay or not, is that their spirit chose to be so before entering our plane of existence/universe/reality. The spirit knows what being gay MEANS and knows what sort of response people will have, but they do not know what it FEELS like to be gay. So, they choose the situation into which they want to introduce themselves and EXPERIENCE homosexuality. This means they can choose to be a gay man or woman, anywhere in the world, in any culture, and from any type of parents. I believe, therefore, that homosexuality is not a Genetic or Social phenomenon, but a Spiritual one.
Our spirits essentially choose to live a pre-DESTINED life full of unique experiences and not simply participate in a pre-DETERMINED life where everything is already known to it.
Let me know what you thinK...
____________
*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted November 13, 2004 02:53 AM |
|
|
Thanks leo for your response. I have to say, i don’t share your philosophy of destiny, since i don’t believe in spirits in the first place. I think no further comment is needed.
Concerning my personal believe
It’s not really the position i defended during the debate. Its more like a mix of the two, genetics and society. I believe that each sex has a set of hormones on disposal, plus a pair of sex organs and that’s about the difference between them. While the hormones (dependant on genetics) do contribute individuals to feel sexual attraction to one of the sexes, they do not definitely determine it. For example, my higher levels of testosterone may give me a sexual inclination towards passive, receptive, gentle partners, or for that matter some other genetic cause may do it. However, the sexual attraction is modeled most importantly through the socialization process and as the child makes a distinction between the two sexes (parent relationship possibly plays a major role here). Even though all males may have inclination towards passive (female partners), i think the psychological impact is more detrimental than the genetical predispositions. If we lived in a society ruled by homosexuals, imo a percent as high as 50% could have been gays.
Based on personal experience, i may be somewhere between bi and hetero. I have a strong emotional attraction to females, none to males; some sexual attraction to males, some to females, though i’ve never had real sex with guys. Could be a phase of experimenting, as you say leo, but for now i’m trying not to suppress anything inside me, so that i don’t regret it much later in life.
Where are all the others? I was hoping the other siders would have more to say on this topic (beside bort’s illuminating post).
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
|
|
posted December 16, 2004 07:59 PM |
|
|
I probably should post something, but i have a bit of homophobia ^_^ ... I don't mind joking around with "being gay" and all, but i don't like doing it around some who is gay, because i might upset him. But even though i feel like that, i feel like i'm .. not judging him normally, like he's another race or something..
So i'll just pass it along, so i don't get a lot of people on my back! (litteraly)
____________
*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted December 16, 2004 08:16 PM |
|
|
In my experience, most people's homophobia tends to come from ignorance.
Not that I mean that in a bad way, but it's the truth.
Many people who are homophobic may go through their whole lives without interacting with homosexuals in any way.
I've found that in many instances, when people learn that I'm gay after a while that they tend to disbelieve it, because I don't conform to the stereotypes of what a gay man should look/act like.
I used to be very active in sports at high school, so that almost instantly qualified me as 'straight' in many people's eyes.
I can hold my own in a football discussion and I like rough humour.
Not very ladylike I know, but I am what I am
However I'd ask you Real Deal, what exactly are you homophobic about? That men will try to come on to you? Or something else?
I find this perhaps the most arrogant aspect of male homophobia.
The most homophobic 400lb slob will be afraid that guys will come on to him.
Give us some credit for christ's sake, chances are - if you can't get a girlfrind, you'll be equally unlucky in attracting a boyfriend.
Your thoughts Real Deal?
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
|
|
posted December 16, 2004 08:24 PM |
|
|
Well, i have a gay Uncle, which i don't mind speaking with at all. He laughs at all my jokes, and always speaks very highly of me, so no problem there.
But theres a few gay men in my high school, and they are very fond of .. hugging people, sometimes including me. And i can't just say "Stop hugging me!" Because they might take it the wrong way. One of them is the Stereo typical guy. He's really a lady! But every gay man i know, other than him.. Seems normal.
I didn't even know you were gay. Remember way back when i made that "Month of..." Joke? Where i made a "Month of the Asmodean! Every male creature has asspains" I didn't even know you where gay, a week later when i read an old post and noticed you were gay, i felt bad about writing it. I wouldn't know that you were gay if you hadn't told us.
Gay people usually just.. frighten me.. If i don't know them, but so does black people.. But you're right, it might be ignorance. I Can't really come with any good argument why i think that way, but i still do.
But maybe you should can the "Homophobes are ignorant" stuff in real life, some jerks might take it the wrong way and woop you... Not me though! Don't take it like that.
____________
*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted December 17, 2004 02:55 AM |
|
|
Quote:
But maybe you should can the "Homophobes are ignorant" stuff in real life, some jerks might take it the wrong way and woop you... Not me though!
You want a certificate for your liberal approach perhaps?
A matter of fact is that homophobes are ignorant (at least in that aspect), so are rascist, and sexists, and neonazis... Theres not a wrong way to take it, it clearly states what its meant to state. And even "ignorant" sounds too diplomatic if you ask me.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
|
|
posted December 17, 2004 06:36 AM |
|
|
I know where both of you are coming from...
Quote:
I used to be very active in sports at high school, so that almost instantly qualified me as 'straight' in many people's eyes.
Asmodean & RealDeal, I have been playing hockey since I was 6 years old and started playing with gay guys, once a week & at tournaments, a few years back.
I already mentioned earlier that I have been working around homosexuals for a long time. Well one day, one of my coworkers, "Princess Steve"…who had a few hours of ice-time every Sunday night…invited me to come out and play with him & his buddies (most were gay, but a few were straight). I'll admit that at first I was apprehensive, not because of what would happen on the ice, but because I didn't know what would take place in the dressing room while we changed. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting to walk in on an orgy or something crazy like that, but it's one thing to joke around with other straight hockey players about sexual innuendos and a totally different thing to do it with gay hockey players. *At least, that's what I thought.* 
I don't know what your knowledge of the "hockey life" is like, but I'll give you a little idea of my experience. At junior hockey levels (ages 13 - 21), team-mates will often joke around together about "dropping the soap" in the shower, screwing around with each others girlfriends/sisters/mothers, or they will just make crude jokes about doing sexual acts to each other as a form of aggression (i.e. "Shut up or I will shove this water bottle up your a**"!). These are pretty common examples, but far from some of the embarrassing and grotesque "hazing/initiation" rituals. P.S. Although hockey players’ locker-room behaviour might border on bad taste, they never go as far as that Soccer player that bit his team-mates "willy" in the middle of a packed stadium & on international television.
Anyways, I passed on Princess’ invitation for a few weeks, until I simply decide that I couldn’t miss an opportunity to play more hockey (Canadian men & hockey = Moth & flame). So, when I started going at first I was startled to find that about 10 of the 15 gay guys spoke, acted, and looked just like any normal man. Some were bigger (ex-pro-football player), thinner, or fatter than me; but they didn’t fit the stereotype at all…one guy even had a daughter!!! The other 5 gay guys had lisps, dressed the part, and generally acted effeminate...and yet here they were playing hockey! By the way, at the end of my first hockey experience, I am glad to say that there was no orgy…Phew!!!
Overtime, I became so comfortable with the idea of being around these gay hockey players, that I decided to go to some of the Canadian Gay Hockey Tournaments. My first experience was in Toronto, where I was supposed to play on a team with a bunch of my hometown gay buddies. Well, at the last minute, many of them backed out of the competition, which left me & my wife pretty much alone with a bunch of gay strangers. At this point, I sort of felt the same way that I did the first time I walked into the rink back in Ottawa. Anyways, all went well for the first few games…Ya-Wen & I met lots of kind & interesting people (And their partners )…but everything took a turn for the worst when we played against The Montreal Dragons.
The game was a close fought battle of strength, skill, & determination. I was totally in my element, until some goon decided to introduce his hockey stick to my face! After he hit me and the blood started pooling in my mouth, I just stood there and looked at him…I couldn’t believe a gay man had just smacked me in the mouth, on purpose, and was now taunting me to fight him. My head was spinning and I knew I was bleeding badly, so I just skated away to the bench.
At this point, a tournament official came to help me and sent me to the hospital where his "partner" was a Dr. (He beat you to it Asmodean…) Both of these guys were super nice and in no time my lips were sewn back together with 5 stitches and I was drugged up like a Japanese prostitute. Later on, that goon apologized to me and I went on to enjoy many more tournaments.
My point is this, RealDeal, there are many different kinds of gay people…like any other social group…and even though you might fear them a little at first because of your prejudices or because they are “unknown”, after a while you simply get used to them. Case & point: Today, I am as comfortable joking around with gay hockey players about sexual innuendos, as I am doing it with my straight buddies.
P.S. I once tried to sign up with my buddies to play in the Gay Winter Olympics, being held in Salt Lake City – Utah, but they refused me because I was not gay…DISCRIMINATION! Hahaha!
____________
*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted December 17, 2004 07:14 AM |
|
|
[quoteP.S. I once tried to sign up with my buddies to play in the Gay Winter Olympics, being held in Salt Lake City – Utah, but they refused me because I was not gay…DISCRIMINATION! Hahaha
LMAO Leo.
RD, I remember the thread you're talking about. In fact I had a good old chuckle over it to myself. Hey if I'd been annoyed I'd have called you out on it - it's fine buddy - don't worry about it for a second. Believe me I've heard worse from my straight friends (and Pandora - but we love her)
Thing is, I didn't know that you didn't know I was gay (starting to feel like I'm in the O.C here).
But the thing is, I'm just as ready to laugh at stereotype jokes as any other person (hell I started blond jokes and Irish jokes threads in the Tavern - of and I'm an Irish blond, if I can;t laugh at myself then I've no right to laugh at anyone else )
The thing is, I may be gay - but it's not how I define myself.
If I was asked to describe myself and my peronality I'd focus more on my interest in rock music, writing and reading fantasy, hanging out with all my buddies. Maybe as an afterthought I'd say I was gay, but it's not the big issue that drives my life.
I think Svarog may have been a tad harsh in regards to this issue. I totally agree with his other bigotist categories, but fro the outside looking in and the inside looking out - I know where straight guys are coming from.
I was extremely lucky from some of the scare stories I heard from some of my gay friends.
I came out in High School when I was just 14.
But I was popular, involved in the hurling team (think Ice Hockey with no ice, a long stick/bat with metal bands at the bottom so you can hit the ball harder. and a ball like a stone instead of a puck - really rough game, you get the picture).
I was quite good at it and won 3 All-Star medals (given to 25 best school players each year). And by 15 I'd heard all the jokes from my team-mates.
And even at that point there were still people that couldn't believe I was gay, I played sports, was in a rock band - not typical at all.
But when I first came out to my friends the guys especially were a bit funny with how they treated me, and it was through to ignorance. Heck they were 14 - I can't expect them to be ultra-cosmopolitan at that age can I?
But I think that because I had a good attitude and tried to never make them feel uncomfortable that they got over it quickly and I was once again 'one of the guys.
I know people who lost all their friends, or had to switch schools when people found out they were gay - so I WAS extrememly lucky.
If you know these gay guys, then don't be afraid to speak with them about being 'hugged'.
Speak to them one on one. Don't make any provocative statements, but be clear that while you're fine with them being gay - you don't like being touched up.
Hell even lie a little bit.
Say 'I think you're a great funny guy, but.....@
That way you don't hurt their feelings, they know where you stand and then you can tell your other friends that you had this talk with Mr X. Then if the problem happens again - you're perfectly fine to call the guy out about his behaviour, without looking like totally homophobic in front of your friends.
And if it's girls opinions you're worried about, just ask them - Would you like it if I started touching YOU after you'd asked me not to.
They're sure to sympathise
P.S - Longest post I've written in a while - Appreciate it
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
|
TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
|
|
posted December 17, 2004 06:52 PM |
|
|
I certainly do... You should think about making a guide of how to speak with gay people .. J/K..
Well, i did what you asked and i think it went well, he was a bit like "No hugs? GOD **** IT!" But it was ok.
I don't get why he wanted to hug me anyway, i'm no adonis or anything, just a typical very sarcastic fat teenager ..
To be honest, i don't fear Homos as much as i did before, but i can't say that i'm 100 % comfortable with it, but guessing that will come as i mature mentally, cuz i don't dislike the homos i know..
"How do you comfuse 2 Homosexuals? Put them in a bathtub filled with sausages"
Besides, i never said i hated gay people, i said some of em scared me. I also get scared by some girls(the sadistic little brats that.. well you get the picture)
I'm no expert on gay people, but one thing i do know is that they REALLY like wimpy films.. I can't say it's like that throughout the world, but the ones i know.. have it that way. It's their weakpoint. Most of them seem normal, but here.. thats where they crack
____________
*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
|
|
Shenjairo
Known Hero
Simsalabim
|
|
posted December 17, 2004 09:15 PM |
|
|
What would qualify as a wimpy film?
____________
|
|
Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
|
|
posted December 17, 2004 09:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I'm no expert on gay people, but one thing i do know is that they REALLY like wimpy films.. I can't say it's like that throughout the world, but the ones i know.. have it that way. It's their weakpoint. Most of them seem normal, but here.. thats where they crack
LMAO 
Buddy you're half right.
I do enjoy somewimpy films, but define wimpy?
My 2 favorite films are Death Becomes Her and Terminator 2.
I'd watch a horror film before I'd watch a romantic comedy, I despise Julia Roberts but have to say I enjoyed both Bridget Jones films.
I may be a bit of a contrast, but I can appreciate the Die Hard trilogy as much as I liked Muriel's wedding.
About that guide for how to speak with gay people, you may be on to something.
I'm glad to see that my advice wasn't worthless, and hope that you didn't take me wrong.
I never thought you HATED gay people, but I recognised you're uncomfortable with them
And if you're willing to try and get along then you will mature into a good attitude
Just treat people like people, that's all most people want off you, gay or straight.
____________
To err is human, to arr is pirate.
|
| |
|
|
