|
|
The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
|
posted May 12, 2009 11:20 PM |
|
|
'Scuse me? I don't have a clue what I'm talking about?
Let me break it down for you.
1. The arguments of the far right are absurd, laughable, and inconsequential-- so long as they don't hold the reins of power. Elodin's posts gives me an opportunity to understand the psyche of the people who believe that FOX news is the most credible source of information.
2. When you get into heated debates with people, it is common for both sides to shut down to the point where they can no longer see the other person's point of view. The will to dominate supersedes civility.
3. In my experience, it is the other readers and not the main combatants who will most likely be willing to change their minds in favor of someone else's points. I will submit my own experience when I changed from a pro-Iraq war stance to an anti-Iraq war stance. And it wasn't private. I was very public with my coworkers about my feelings and they didn't take too kindly to them. I didn't do it because some do-gooder euro was busy lecturing and haranguing me but because I, removed from the main arguments, was able to distill them, come to my own conclusions, and follow my own conscience.
When you engage in debate in a forum like this, be prepared to accept that you will often not get the other side to see your point of view. Conceding on any level is easily twisted into weakness. Instead, I would recommend you think of your other audience, the ones that are reading that might not be your intended ones. It is with them you will find the greatest ability to mold ideas.
4. Jollyjoker is smart, capable, and an interesting read. Where I come from, he'd be called a rules lawyer, and I read him with this in mind. This isn't personal though. I would have jumped anyone else who was hysterically crying for justice and retribution when they got hit in the eye while engaging in mutual mud-slinging. And I would feel perfectly justified asking them if they're a size 2 or 4.
5. This disturbing trend where people threaten to leave if the mods don't kowtow to them I find just as ridiculous and absurd as Elodin's posts. I will go the extra step and say they are more detrimental to the well being of HC than people like Elodin. He isn't the first far right goober we've had and he probably won't be the last. Feel free to reference Dargon, Wolfman, Muerte, and Shadey (far right Israeli list I'll save for another time) for more entertainment.
That you guys feel threatened enough by these shlubs, especially when there's only one of them posting at any given time, makes me think you're a bunch of thin-skinned pantywaists who don't have it in you to match their aggression. And if you don't match their aggression, if you don't lock eyes with them without wavering, they will eat you alive.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 12, 2009 11:50 PM |
|
|
Gootch:
Now, don't go putting Wolfman in with those other guys. He was much more moderate.
Wolfsburg:
I don't like this idea of "we atheists/agnostics". You atheist/agnostic may be different from me atheist/agnostic. "We atheists/agnostics" haven't done anything, just like "the Christians" didn't do anything.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
|
|
posted May 12, 2009 11:53 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Wolfsburg:
I don't like this idea of "we atheists/agnostics". You atheist/agnostic may be different from me atheist/agnostic. "We atheists/agnostics" haven't done anything, just like "the Christians" didn't do anything.
I like this statement... 
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted May 12, 2009 11:54 PM |
|
|
Me too.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 01:04 AM |
|
|
Quote:
That you guys feel threatened enough by these shlubs, especially when there's only one of them posting at any given time, makes me think you're a bunch of thin-skinned pantywaists who don't have it in you to match their aggression. And if you don't match their aggression, if you don't lock eyes with them without wavering, they will eat you alive.
Yessir! Although sounding like a football coach I actually understand your position. I just think for once comparisons to mass-murderers could be easily avoided. Plus, I dont think saying "get lost" helps too much in any discussion.
And about the ones who disagree with the "we atheists havent offended anyone" sentence. My sincere apologies.
Next time please read:
* We, completely unique individuals, with inherent particularities and conceptions about the world, sharing but different degrees of god-disbelief... <rest of the sentence>
(I am kidding, I get your point)
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 12:23 PM |
|
|
Jolly, if you wish to leave while you will be missed, we won't stop you. I can't speak for the other Moderators, but I will not Kowtow either. Fine, I get it, you think I am a horrible Moderator. So be it. I've been diplomatic, trying to answer all your issues, but I am now more certain then ever I made the right call. With every post you make, I become even more certain.
You are doing exactly what you accuse Elodin of doing. You question his 'right' to his opinion, you attack his posting style, and then do it all in the name of your own beliefs. You have a right to think however you wish, but so does he. So, I guess there really is not much more to discuss. I am standing by my decision..accept it or not. Go over my head to Val, do whatever you have to do. Poeple do not have to agree with you, just as they do not have to agree with me. You desire to talk about it more? Go for it, for me..I am honestly and truely done with this. I am going to clean this up in about a week unless the other two mods object. Just clutters the place up..so if you want to save this, make another thread and copy everything over.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 04:27 PM |
|
|
What you are saying is that the christian-status grants posters in HC the right to speak in a tone, and fashion that would have gotten others in trouble.
Check my post above and you will see I had this point discussed.
If I would enter a religious thread, where people would be discussing the wonders of god and his son's legacy. Having a serene discussion and having a good time. I would then go like:
"Oh, just another atheism bashing thread uh? You are that kind of people who share <religious theorist> disturbed, bigotted visions. Anti-atheists, thats all."
How could we better define that post?
A troll's job? Spam? Aggravating?
And if I went on, out of subject, saying how many were killed by religion and comparing religious people to mass-murderers?
Hatemongering? Poisoning the well?
If Mytical agrees that this kind of posting is inadequate or not, and if he is going to adress the offender by the name its not my business. Again, Angelito came in and specifically reprehended Elodin for his ravings. Stinguishing the fire AT THE SPOT.
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 05:06 PM |
|
|
It would seem to me that the simplest solution would be to prohibit any further religious discussion at this forum. Clearly people lack the maturity and sensibility to handle discussions of that nature.
The whole issue has come up often enough that it seems like its just inviting trouble to allow it to continue.
It grows tiresome to read it time and time again, knowing full well that there will never be calm resolution. Everyone is so convinced that they are 100% right and that all of their arguments are infallible - and then it comes to this.
Its amusing to me that when these discussions do come up, suddenly members feel that they know something about the moderator's religious beliefs...
In any case, I don't really see any point in having the moderators have to deal with this any longer. As much as many people seem to feel that they have certain "rights", there's no evidence to support that it's your right to discuss religion heatedly at a gaming forum.
Just my opinion.
____________
"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 05:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Its amusing to me that when these discussions do come up, suddenly members feel that they know something about the moderator's religious beliefs...
Well Pan, it's not exactly a wellkept secret that you're the devil in Prada. 
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 05:21 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It would seem to me that the simplest solution would be to prohibit any further religious discussion at this forum. Clearly people lack the maturity and sensibility to handle discussions of that nature.
My view too and also the reason I stopped posting there. There is no hope.
____________
The empty set
|
|
pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 05:45 PM |
|
|
Quote:
For example the LGBT-thread - that's not religious, right?
However, you can MAKE it religious, since, obviously, most religions have a certain stance to most everything - backed by the highest authority possible, mind you.
If someone were to try to MAKE it religious, those posts should be instantly deleted. No bothering with pages upon pages of offtopic in regards to whether or not the point applies, no debate as to any interpretation of what anyone means by what they said regarding their religious beliefs etc.
I don't care to argue as to how and where religion can be applied to a variety of topics - what I am saying is that I feel it should no longer be allowed to enter those conversations at all. Not here.
All this rambling does is degrade every thread that it touches - enough already.
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 05:57 PM |
|
Edited by Azagal at 18:03, 13 May 2009.
|
...What? We're actually going to forbid topics on HC? Nevermind the "we"...
Quote:
I don't care to argue as to how and where religion can be applied to a variety of topics - what I am saying is that I feel it should no longer be allowed to enter those conversations at all. Not here.
All this rambling does is degrade every thread that it touches - enough already.
Oh right it's not like we've had that before with other subjects? Capitalism, socialism, 3rd Reich, love etc blablabla we have tons of subjects that "can be applied to a variety of topics" and that "degrage every thread they touch".
Wtf is this? We're (I really need to stop believing that there is a "we") going to forbid everybody to talk about religion because we have some hardliners? Are you people actualy serious about this?`
Do you ("you" as in everybody who thinks forbidding something makes sense, not "you"=Pandora) actually think the problem lies in the topic? Do you? The thought that it might not be the issue/topic that is the cause of the problem but the poster doesn't make sense? Ohhh no I forgot... it's easier to just forbid the entire topic. Noooo it's not like those posters will find a new topic that they'll discuss in the same manner as they discussed religion. Then we ("we" again lol) simply ban that subject aswell !
You're joking right? Nobody was serious about forbiding a topic, right?
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:02 PM |
|
|
And what do you propose Azagal? Think about the mods too.
____________
The empty set
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:10 PM |
|
Edited by Azagal at 18:11, 13 May 2009.
|
What do I propose? Simply let people discuss the topics they want to discuss. And if people aren't able to discuss a topic "properly" (in the end "properly" is just what a mod deems "ok" or "not ok") they suffer the consequences. I just don't see how one can think that I'd make sense to forbid something. It's so ignorant. Forbidding something equals saying "Nobody on this forum is intelligent enough to discuss this properly". Such an action is not only horribly insulting it's also very naive. As I said the problem is not the topic it's the people discussing it.
Quote:
Think about the mods too.
I don't get it. They're the mods. Mods have responsabilities. Nobody ever forced them to become mods. That doesn't mean we have to make things unneccesarily hard for them but it sure as hell doesn't mean we should free them from the work they have like this (forbiding a topic that is. Keeping work at a minum for mods is a good thing of course).
Since I perhaps am a little naive considering this subject maybe you (or anybody) could tell me how the burden "religion" and the "problems" it causes are not within the responsabilities a mod has.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:13 PM |
|
|
Don't get me wrong but this whole "Forbidding" just puts me off to no end. Forbidding something is so primitive. It really is.
Apart from being the easy way out it's just so wrong. So very wrong.
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:23 PM |
|
|
Quote:
As I said the problem is not the topic it's the people discussing it.
Yes, but you can not control the people who discuss the subject. And besides, most visitors here are kids (yeah, kids, flame me, whatever ...).
As of the rest, I also think it is naive to expect from mods to have an opinion in each and every subject (I am also criticizing some of my threads here too). In other words, they are mods in a forum about games. What kind of responsibilities does such a title carry? Talking about god and refereeing discussions on the philosophy of everyone's life - especially when some discussions are on sensitive matters where everyone knows the "truth"?
____________
The empty set
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:28 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 18:29, 13 May 2009.
|
I agree with Azagal (I swear there is some sort of cosmic alignment or something). Forbidding any topic is not the way to go. Neither is throwing penalties around (in the future) for any even slight insult. I find it awful amusing that as soon as something doesn't go somepeople's way they start whining and doing the "Moderators are doing a horrible job" schtick. When they are getting their way, everthing is peaches and cream.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:31 PM |
|
Edited by Anakrom at 18:41, 13 May 2009.
|
Quote:
Forbidding something equals saying "Nobody on this forum is intelligent enough to discuss this properly".
Forbidding something equals saying "Not everybody on this forum is intelligent apparently able enough to discuss this in the properly manner".
Have you noticed that all discussions about religion end up in arguing and insults? Each side thinks that truth is on itīs side and since it canīt be proven, it will end with shouting and screaming. Not everyone is open-minded. But you have the point, it would be better to penalize offenders rather than abolishing topics. But mods arenīt too keen to do that, since you will end up like tyrant and oppressor in the eyes of others - or, said in better way, they arenīt too rushy with -QP (which is good, but it leaves place for more arguing).
EDIT: My english is getting worse every day 
____________
Result matters
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:36 PM |
|
Edited by Azagal at 18:38, 13 May 2009.
|
On HC you can controle people. Silence them or warn them or what-not.
Quote:
In other words, they are mods in a forum about games. What kind of responsibilities does such a title carry?
Sorry but that's nonsense. HC hasn't been about Heroes anymor for a long time, no? Even if it would be it wouldn't matter because this "forum about games" has the OSM. Of course a mod of the OSM has other responsabilities than someone from the Altar. And it is their responsability to watch their forums damnit.
But this isn't about the mods, this is about the issue of forbidding a topic. And forbidding is bull****, sorry. Forbidding only speaks of the inability to deal with the problem at hand.
Quote:
I agree with Azagal (I swear there is some sort of cosmic alignment or something).
Is that just you being melodramatic or do we really have such different views on things?
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
|
|
posted May 13, 2009 06:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
Forbidding something equals saying "Nobody on this forum is intelligent enough to discuss this properly".
Forbidding something equals saying "Nobody on this forum is intelligent apparently not able enough to discuss this in the properly manner".
I think it says "Not everybody" instead of "Nobody" and delete the "not" before the "able". With the rest I agree, but they seem to lead in prohibiting the topic.
|
|
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
