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| Thread: Assholes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Conan
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posted November 25, 2004 04:56 AM |
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Edited By: Conan on 24 Nov 2004
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Quote:
He is one of the members of a rare breed that put others freedom above his safety.
Is the US any free-er now that Saddam is out? if so, why? How did attacking Iraq make US a free country?
What did Iraq do? In the last war, they invaded Kuwait... fine, and noble to intervene... but now?
I just don't understand. And Aculias is right, the Bush administration lied. You see, I won't blame a specific person here, but an administration; the republicans. It's never person-specific... It's always a group of people; a democratic government.
And why is it the entire world including some large amount of Americans think it was and still is a mistake?
How is it only half the population of the US in the entire world think it was OK to do so and it is still going on?
Just my 2 cents.
Svarog; did you want this thread to turn into another anti-bush discussion, because if not and we are going out of line in respect to your friend, I'll stop it here. It's not fair to your thought and feelings if this thread goes out of line.
Take care,
C.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted November 25, 2004 05:30 AM |
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Some Things To Consider
 How old does a person have to be to qualify as combat capable?
1. What are the mental criteria for this qualification?
2. What are the physical standards needed to qualify?
What reasoning can authorize a person to kill another?
1. Is it defense?
2. Is it offense?
How will the death of a human being affect the rest of the world?
1. Loss of individual contribution to the world?
2. Increase world contribution productivity on the individual level?
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How does it make you feel?
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 25, 2004 07:10 AM |
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Quote:
How old does a person have to be to qualify as combat capable?Who cares about age.Age shouldnt be an issue but 18-older is the legal age but what does age have to do with qualifing.
1. What are the mental criteria for this qualification?
2. What are the physical standards needed to qualify?
You have to take tests but in drafts does it really matter.
What reasoning can authorize a person to kill another?
1. Is it defense?if your life is in danger then you have to defend yourself but in this war WTF are we defending?
2. Is it offense?Bad people kill on offense, just like Bush did when he invaded Iraq.
How will the death of a human being affect the rest of the world?It effects the family & friends of that person & when we read about every death it saddens us.
so many seaths in this world.
1. Loss of individual contribution to the world?What can you do.
2. Increase world contribution productivity on the individual level?What can you do.
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How does it make you feel?
Makes me sad how dif & uprising a person can be & the hatred.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted November 25, 2004 07:31 AM |
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Steven..
I'm not American.
And saying to people that they don't know what they are talking about, because there is a reason for people to speak their mind. When you are 21 you ar capable of making your own decisions, or should be. It was his choice, not yours, not mine.. not anyone elses but his.
I'm not a supporter of war, but sometimes it has to be done when people just won't listen to reason. I agree with you all when you say that talking it out is better, but not everyone can be talked to so that they'll truly listen. We are all individuals and we all have different opinions, and we've got them some way, some how. So don't say that people don't know what they are talking about, because there must be some will behind the words.(i know it was mostly intented against me and Wolfman)
I feel sorry for Svarog and the poor kids mother, but he did what he felt he had to do, how wrong or right that is, isn't up to anyone of us. Maybe he went into battle with the wrong idea of why he did it, but at the least he thought he was doing what he wanted to do.
I could have said all this before, or i could just have said LoL like i did, but LoL just described my feelings so well when you all sat there.. comming up with jibberish. Especially now that i've seen most of you blame bush and oil.
Take heart fellow humans, chances are you'll be seeing more of this, and if you let it eat at you so much every time... at one point there won't be anything left.
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 25, 2004 08:02 AM |
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One can argue that the war may not have been right, but people don't join the military seriously expecting that they might never go to war. I do consider 21 old enough to make such a decision, and since conscription does not exist inside the US and UK (unlike many european nations who do employ national service for example) then I am afraid that it was his decision and no-one elses to join a profession that agrees to put their life on the line on the orders of the government. This is one of the issues that often crops up the last time there was a serious draft for war in the states, ie Vietnam. Despite the movies and the hype about the war, well over 60% of those fighting in Vietnam volunteered to do so. It's one thing to be forced to fight a war you don't believe in, it's another entirely to enter a profession were you essentially put your choices about fighting entirely down to the government and know it to be so when you sign up.
To be fair, I'm guessing this guy signed up when he was what 17-18 at most, which would be 2000-2001. If he'd known then the type of guy Bush was, or what he would do, he still probably would have joined up. The point is that he did so knowing this was kind of war was possible. If americans find it distasteful that people like him die for a war without moral backing (as they see it) then they should remove Bush and/or the republicans from office. The role of a military being answerable to the people via the elected representatives is not the issue here.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted November 25, 2004 08:19 AM |
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Quote:
This is one of the issues that often crops up the last time there was a serious draft for war in the states, ie Vietnam. Despite the movies and the hype about the war, well over 60% of those fighting in Vietnam volunteered to do so.
Are you sure that 60% figure is accurate? I'm supprised it's that high. At any rate it still means 40% were drafted. A major issue back then was that the draftees were old enough to be drafted and get killed in a stupid war, but they were not old enough to vote. The voting age was 21 at the time. Lowering the age to 18 was a direct result of Vietnam.
I was the last year to sign up for the Vietnam era draft, but it was not until sometime later that I was old enough to vote.
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 25, 2004 08:43 AM |
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Very sure yes*, my point being that the percentage drafted in WWII was much higher, but that was seen as justifiable, and in an era of less questioning of authority. Either way, 60% of those chose to be there, just like this gentleman. It's bad that he didn't agree with the war, but he took that chance joining the military in the first place. My overall point is argue against the case for the war and remove those that started it, but don't argue that people who choose to do something willingly are not responsible for that choice when of adult age.
*Probably the majority of privates or equivalents were drafted though. The majority of the volunteers would probably have been senior NCOs or similar and high ranking officers, often having been in the military some time.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted November 25, 2004 08:59 AM |
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OK, that makes sense.
Quote:
My overall point is argue against the case for the war and remove those that started it, but don't argue that people who choose to do something willingly are not responsible for that choice when of adult age.
I find myself in somewhat of a moral delemma. I remember Vietnam and how the soldiers were treated after they returned. I'm very against the Iraq war and feel I should speak out against it. On the other hand, I REALLY don't want another Vietnam type situation where the soldiers come home and are made to feel they put their lives on the line when the country is against them. I find myself lacking words, but maybe you get my point.
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privatehudson
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posted November 25, 2004 09:15 AM |
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I know what you mean yes. For them it is going to be hard, and to be frank I don't think every soldier thinks about these kind of things before joining up, that's been my experience anyway. I think the majority of sensible opponents of the war will see that the honest soldiers were just doing their job and had no choice. I would use the same reasoning here, that opponents of the war should oppose those that began it, and generally leave the soldiers out of the issue unless they were involved in a crime of some sort.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Aculias
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Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 25, 2004 09:37 AM |
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Thier being lied to think that they are fighting for us & the American people over self gain & hatred.
Wars are all the same when it comes to self gain & power.
Like I said what does a person want more then power?
More power.
Who cares about the % of how many were drafted from WW2 & Vietnam.
We all know.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 25, 2004 10:51 AM |
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It matters because it counters the theory that the majority of those that fought the Vietnam war were there because they were forced into it.
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Aculias
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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 25, 2004 11:46 AM |
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18 or older excluding mentally ill,flat feet or severed.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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privatehudson
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The Ultimate Badass
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posted November 25, 2004 11:51 AM |
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*stares at the screen in confusion*
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terje_the_ma...
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Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted November 25, 2004 12:37 PM |
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"Politicians hide themselves away / They only started the war / Why should they go out to fight? / They leave that part to the poor."
Blame it all on the National Security Strategy from September 2002. It's not accurate, since the NSS was just a formalization of a policy that the US has been pursuing unofficially since WWII, but it's comething solid.
And this wouldn't have made much of a change if the Democrats had won. The spine of the NSS was put to words by a in other ways liberal Democrat senator in the 60s...
My heart bleeds for everyone who dies in war.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted November 25, 2004 02:02 PM |
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Quote:
One can argue that the war may not have been right, but people don't join the military seriously expecting that they might never go to war. I do consider 21 old enough to make such a decision, and since conscription does not exist inside the US and UK (unlike many european nations who do employ national service for example) then I am afraid that it was his decision and no-one elses to join a profession that agrees to put their life on the line on the orders of the government. This is one of the issues that often crops up the last time there was a serious draft for war in the states, ie Vietnam. Despite the movies and the hype about the war, well over 60% of those fighting in Vietnam volunteered to do so. It's one thing to be forced to fight a war you don't believe in, it's another entirely to enter a profession were you essentially put your choices about fighting entirely down to the government and know it to be so when you sign up.
BS part II
"Free will" is a very relative term.
A kids family hates mexicans, every day they talk about how mexicans ruins their world in every possible way. When the kid is 20 a mexican starts working in the same place as him, do you think the kid will greet him with open arms?
All of a 22 year olds boys friends likes to go extreme sporting, the boys mother hates this as she concideres it dangerous but every day the boys friends tells him about how cool it is and that all the friends are going to a place this weekend... do you think the boy will stay home playing scrabbles with his mother?
During WW 2, how many germans do you think was against what Adolf Hitler did in the beginning of his leadership? Do you think they would have thought the same today and is it possible that they were under the influence of some kind of propaganda during the hitler days?
Point is, free will can be very relative depending on which context you put it in. By saying that you know exactly what to do when you are old enough and is able to see it all from an outside perspective is just plain stupid.
There are many factors involved in decisions like this, and i dont know this boy or the circumstances around it, and to be honest i dont even think svarog does as these things are usually very complicated.
To once again refer to 9/11 movie (even if i do think much of it is pure crap there are some lessons i took from it which they couldnt make so very obvious so it got boring) is how the recruiters for the army worked. They didnt exactly go for the confident looking ones now did they? No they went for the ones that looked like having a low selfesteem and told them that now there is a way for them to feel important basically and be able to make a difference!
For a person that has had a rough time going through life that far i can imagine that sounding like heaven.
Talk about "free will" all you want but when it all comes down to it the will isnt free at all usually, but it is a will thats been under a influence of propaganda from for example goverment/friends/family and such for a long time.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 25, 2004 03:46 PM |
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Edited By: Conan on 25 Nov 2004
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Quote:
To once again refer to 9/11 movie (even if i do think much of it is pure crap there are some lessons i took from it which they couldnt make so very obvious so it got boring) is how the recruiters for the army worked. They didnt exactly go for the confident looking ones now did they? No they went for the ones that looked like having a low selfesteem and told them that now there is a way for them to feel important basically and be able to make a difference!
For a person that has had a rough time going through life that far i can imagine that sounding like heaven.
I agree with you about the free will issue, but implying that the boy had some kind of personnal problem so he went in the army is a little hard to swallow.
Now before you tell me to go read your post again, I just want to say that you did not say he had problems... you seemed to imply it (see quote).
I know you realize that some of the military men and women are normal people with a high self esteem that do it for their country. I would agree that this is not the majority as Americans would like to think, but making a generelisation about this case can be dangerous, and isnt quite fair. Edit - Unless you where talking about the Americans in general, not the boy in the original post from Svarog.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted November 25, 2004 06:31 PM |
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Truly Insightful
Sir_Stiven,
That was the best post I've ever seen from you. Can I have your permission to repost it in the WWII thread? I thought it was exceptional and uniquely contributing.
Once again, great post.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 25, 2004 08:58 PM |
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That issue goes with the rest of the lies, We only know what is told to us by our leaders which is why youngins hate what they dont understand except what our leaders want us to understand.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted November 25, 2004 10:02 PM |
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No offence, but i didn't think it was that great, but that's just a matter of opinion.
And i didn't see you answer my post?
Excuse me for this brief post.
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted November 26, 2004 03:15 AM |
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sort of in verses
The young mind is made of plastic.
The young heart is made of steel.
The young eyes are made of fine black.
And a mother’s heart is made of glass.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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