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| Thread: Assholes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted November 28, 2004 12:34 PM |
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Defending the Will of the young..
Lets continue, shall we?
What if your parents are nazi's, and want to become a jew?..
I'm not an american. I'll NEVER go to war(because of my feet). And that is wonderful, i'd never want to take part in a war. Not because i'm so afraid of death that i wouldn't dare, but because at the end of the War, i'd look back and think: "What was this good for anyway?" And i wouldn't want to risk MY life for that. And i'm 16. Freewill is for anyone, it's not for you to judge if we have that. I'm not saying that everyone would make a good choice, but as long as the choice is the best for the person... What if some kid'll sit there at 40, and feel he didn't do anything to defend his country? You can also regret things the other way around.
There is a chance of glory. There is a chance of death. What is the strongest for a young man? To be able to go to War, just like grandpa did. To be come a Hero. To come home with glory and victory. What do you think that means to a young man? To come home with victory? The person doesn't know the outcome, they go into war with no info of that, they've got assumptions but thats that.
"Dad.. Dad!... could i have that toy?"
"Sure Son!"
"*Toy-bullet sounds*"
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted November 28, 2004 03:47 PM |
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Svarog,
Sometimes it is difficult to deal with things we don't understand. I am very sympathetic with you in regards to your current situation, as your thoughts have been echoed in my mind quite often over the years. Even now, I do not fully understand other people's logic, beliefs, or actions, but I have developed a different perspective on the situtation of people dying for causes in which they believed (or were led to believe) and it has eased some of the pain and quelled a bit of the anger...
Tracy's son died as a result of one of the following two reasons:
1. He gave his life for a cause that he believed in.
2. He gave his life as result of him performing his duty that he gave his word to perform, regardless of his beliefs.
Is is really that simple? Well, yes and no. When you boil everything down, those are the last two justifiable reasons you are left with. However, we are not Tracy's son, and we will never know the exact reasoning for his decisions. So all that you have left to do is honor his memory, and you can do that in numerous ways. For example, you may decide to honor him by letting others know about his sacrifices or his bravery, not only as a Marine, but as a civilian as well. You can choose to honor him by protesting the United States' actions in Iraq, which may help end the fighting over there, and in turn, may help other mothers avoid losing their sons or daughters. You can also honor him by starting a food drive or school supply collection for the Iraqi children, or you could even become a pen pal to one of the soldiers over there who are performing their duties as directed.
But let me add one more perspective to this difficult situation. Tracy's son GAVE his life for some cause; his life was not TAKEN from him. Trust me, even at age 21, when soldiers (especially Marines) deploy to a hostile area, the reality of why they joined the Armed Forces it made readily apparent. When those young men are preparing to enter a warzone or preparing to enter-and-clear an enemy building, they understand that they are taking not only their M-16s or 9 MMs with them, but they are taking thier lives with them as well. Just think about the last time you were frightened or almost scared to death...then think about experiencing that feeling on regular basis, thousands of miles away from the comfort of your family and friends at home. That is why people like myself (and Wolfman) are proud to have people such as Tracy's son fighting for our country, regardless of whether or not the cause is just.
It's easy to be a keyboard warrior and talk tough on a message board. It's another thing to actually experience what is being talked about, and not just by reading a book or a blog. However, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. That is just the way it is, and although we do not have to agree with those opinions, we should at least somewhat respect them. For example, there are some people out there who look upon the terrorists and suicide bombers as heroes who have given their lives for a just cause. Although I do not believe their cause is a just one, in their minds and in their supporters minds, they gave their lives for a justifiable cause. So although I disagree with thier cause, I respect the fact that they believed in something strong enough to sacrifice thier most prized possessions, their lives. I respect that. Most people nowadays are afraid to even take the slightest risks in their lives. They are scared to raise their hand in class for fear of looking stupid or they are afraid to dress or act differently than their peers for fear of being labeled, all of this as a result of living in fear of how people will judge them. Yet, these are the same people who criticize the actions of others who are risking their lives on a daily basis. If one can't see the hypocracy in that, then one is indeed blind.
So, Svarog, my friend, take whatever action you deem necessary to subdue your anger or quell your sadness. If there is anything positive to take from this, then perhaps you may take comfort in the fact that Tracy's son, regardless of his age or beliefs, was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for something that he believed in, which is more than 99% of the rest of this world can ever claim in their lifetimes.
Sincerely,
Khayman
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted November 30, 2004 01:46 AM |
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Quote:
That is why people like myself (and Wolfman) are proud to have people such as Tracy's son fighting for our country, regardless of whether or not the cause is just.
You’re proud to have someone brain-washed enough to fight for the interest of a few, that’s what it is. In my mind, I respect Nicks courage and patriotism, but when someone takes advantage of those characteristics that thousands of young people have, and employs them as their personal army, somehow, I don’t think we should remain calm and proud, but angry and protective, precisely because of the same patriotism and courage that we share with them. “Regardless of whether the cause is just”. I cant believe you said that. I’m sorry, I just value life too much to think that it should be given for a random cause.
I accept the fact that it was his own decision to go there, but if you people are not worried why your sons die young there, I don’t know who else should be. Free choice loses its grandeur when it’s made in the light of a distorted depiction of reality.
Quote:
If there is anything positive to take from this, then perhaps you may take comfort in the fact that Tracy's son, regardless of his age or beliefs, was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for something that he believed in, which is more than 99% of the rest of this world can ever claim in their lifetimes.
I don’t think he believed in the war, and I don’t think he sacrificed himself. Don’t dishonor him like that. When people give their lives for an idea, they embrace their sacrifice, determined to do the same choice time and time again, if given the chance to choose between dying for something and sitting idly. I wonder how many of your soldiers there have that strength in their hearts, and don’t pray every night all this madness to stop.
More sincere than ever,
Svarog
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted November 30, 2004 04:59 AM |
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My Final Thoughts On This Issue
Svarog,
I have more respect for that young man than you could ever imagine. I understand your anger better than you think, believe me. Once the feelings of rage and frustration have subsided, I encourage you to take off the dark sunglasses and once again view the world with the same objectivity that I know you once viewed the world in the past.
You are the one who is dishonoring him, for nobody knew what his beliefs were before he gave his life. By trivializing his efforts and labeling him a brain-washed member of a corrupt organization, you are not only stereotyping him, but you are also taking away his individuality and demeaning his contributions to this world by making assesments that none of us here are qualified to make.
That is all I have to say on this subject, as I will cease from posting in this thread.
Semper Fidelis,
Khayman
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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darksparkle
Hired Hero
Quote the raven,
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posted November 30, 2004 07:10 AM |
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come on ppl, be more sympathetic!!!
havent u ever lost someone????
la luna...
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Why does death have to be such a likely answer?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted November 30, 2004 07:22 AM |
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Svarog,
Quote:
.....to have someone brain-washed enough to fight for the interest of a few, that’s what it is. In my mind, I respect Nicks courage and patriotism, but when someone takes advantage of those characteristics that thousands of young people have, and employs them as their personal army, somehow, I don’t think we should remain calm and proud, but angry and protective, precisely because of the same patriotism and courage that we share with them.....
Finally, you have clarity. In this, I am your friend. You dwell in my thoughts and in my heart.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted November 30, 2004 06:05 PM |
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I'm sick of the spin
First of all, Savrog, I'm so, so sorry this happened to your friends.
Second of all, I encourage you all to read the most recent Congressional report on Saddam Hussein's WMD program.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/creports/iraq.html
This is the report that is being used to assert that everything Powell said at the UN presentation was a "lie." Pay special focus to the portions of the report assessing the weapons and delivery systems programs.
Don't get me wrong. I think this war was at best premature, badly planned, hastily and sloppily executed, and unnecessarily devastating. It was and is a formula for disaster. IMHO it's only going to get worse. I'm sick of the right-spun excuses I keep getting in response to that list of complaints.
But let me play devil's advocate here for just a minute. I am also sick of the left-spun complaints about there being absolutely nothing going on in Iraq.
It is clear from this (above) report -- the very report used to claim it was all a "lie" and there was no threat -- that Saddam Hussein had in place the groundwork to reconstruct his weapons systems the minute the sanctions were lifted. It was those very sanctions that Osama Bin Laden used as partial justification for the 9/11 attacks.
Was Saddam a direct threat to the United States? IMHO no. Not when we invaded. Would he have become a threat to the United States if we had lifted the sanctions? Well, that's clearly debatable. But he would have been a threat to Iran, Kuwait, Syria and Turkey. Saddam was a total nutcase who tortured, raped and killed hundreds of thousands of people and was still doing so on the eve of the invasion. There is no question in anyone's mind that he had designs on becoming a regional dictator, a "unifier" of the Middle east as it were. If that had happened, then I would have to say yes, there would have been a threat to the United States and the rest of the world as well.
Then of course there is the matter of a $25,000 stipend paid to the family of any martyr who died during a terrorist attack against the West.
Now don't get me wrong. I think the United States has planted its hegemonic boot in the Middle East more than one too many times. This was not the way to handle this situation. In fact, as I have said about a hundred times in this forum, I think the way we went about this mess was just about the worst way possible.
But should we have waited from him to start the take-over process before going in? I really don't know anymore. Clearly, clearly, we should have done this differently. But should we still have done it? Maybe.
Those boys and girls of ours over there, and the Iraqi's who are dying, they are dying because we got rid of Saddam. We're over a thousand of our own now, and probably approaching a hundred thousand Iraqis. And every one of them makes me cry when I watch their faces listed on the News Hour every night. Yes, we did this badly. More kids, more people, are dying because we did it so badly. That infuriates me too.
The best we can do now is pick up these little broken bodies and pieces of the mess we have made and fix the situation the best we can. The difference is this: We still may be able to do that because the beast who tortured people and had rape rooms and meat hooks is gone. Anybody who thinks the Iraqis aren't absolutely thrilled about that part of this just isn't in touch with what's really going on over there.
My guess is Nick would not have wanted you to be so enraged, Svarog my dear friend, not about his death. My guess is he would have wanted you to hope for the best for the Iraqi people, and honor the sacrifice he made while trying to stabilize their country. It's the best we can do for him now.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted December 01, 2004 04:20 AM |
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I know Khayman.
I understand how you feel about our people in Iraq right now I apreciate them too.
I agree to Peace that Saddam was a nut & with the other countries but we tend to but into other peoples business were it dont concern us more then once.
We went to this war on lies but picked up some new truth during that time.
Tgis whole wars a lie & were losing our people while Bush sits on his lazy behind readin his kids book dumbfounded.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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SapphireRavyn
Promising
Famous Hero
Bird of Extreme Patience
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posted December 01, 2004 05:59 PM |
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I really don't understand why there is all of this yakking about the war being about oil. I just don't understand that. It's not like we are getting oil from them for free now. We are still paying for it just like we always have from other sources. Are we getting a little more oil from Iraq now, then we used to, sure. But we couldn't buy more from them before because of the sanctions. We bought what we did to support the "Oil for Food" program that Suddam and now we found out lots of other people were ripping off. It was supposed to be a UN monitored program. Then how did Saddam funnel 21 billion dollars off for his own private wealth instead of feeding and providing medicines for his people like the money was supposed to go? At least now the proceeds from the oil that we buy from Iraq is going to help the people and not to line Saddam's pockets. We are building schools and hospitals instead of palaces and summer homes. Many of those buildings are being funded by the US and allies, not from the proceeds of oil sales. I think it is completely ludicrus to say that the war was over oil. There are LOTS of countries that export oil and lots of countries import oil. It's not like the US is the only oil importer out there. Besides we only get 6-7% of our oil from Iraq anyway, so how can it be making that much of an impact? This is people listening to the liberal left instead of finding the actual import data. http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
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It's not who wins or losses that matters, it's how you play the game. Honor before all else!
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted December 01, 2004 07:36 PM |
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It's not about the oil itself, it's about the rights to drill for it, pump it up to the surface and sell it off.
And for God's sake, yes, listen to the economic elite instead of the intellectual. That's so much better 
EDIT: Just remembered something.
Iraq wasn't about oil at all! It was about establishing presedence for similar pre-emptive (not preventive! It's a big difference there!) attacks in the future.
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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darksparkle
Hired Hero
Quote the raven,
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posted December 02, 2004 05:57 AM |
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May god have mercy on us all
Its quite depressing how the world is falling apart
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Why does death have to be such a likely answer?
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 24, 2004 08:55 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 24 Dec 2004
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**Sigh**.....
I went to the grocery store for food for my wife and kids a little over half an hour ago. My daughter sits awake in front of the t.v. watching "Winnie the Pooh"(children's movie), and my wife, son, and infant lay sleeping in their beds.
I sit here thinking more about Svarog than the young man who died in Iraq. Frankly, I don't know this person. I do, however, feel as though I know some small significant thing about the man behind the Svarog avatar. I feel as though, through his writings, he is a man who knows compatriotship. I feel he knows the meaning of trust, loyalty, bravery, and courage.
If Svarog is so deeply moved to pass his words of kindness about a person of whom I've never met then I would think this person to be every bit as characteristic as the way Svarog describes. It is the 'benefit of the doubt' I suppose. I feel a connection with Svarog on some unexplainable personal level throughout this thread. He doesn't seem the type to mislead people into thinking the wrong thing, especially when it concerns a young man whom he obviously considered a comrade of some degree.
I think about this person and how he could have affected a man like Svarog in the way that he did. To me, this is proof that he may have been every bit as courageous as some have made him out to be. I think this is the way of people. I don't think people would grieve as Svarog has done unless they lost something very dear to them. This then leads me to the realization that, in fact, a hero has passed away and left this earth to parts unknown to the living.
Where ever the young man went, what ever his last words may have been, and no matter the war in which he fought, he was brave none the less. He was obviously a person who gained the respect of others, befriended strangers, and loved his own mother. The truth is he might have been afraid in fear of the lurking danger that loomed in the ever-present future of his work. But even in the face of fear, in the light of his judgment, the strength of his will, and the memory of his friends and family, he died with honor. But whether he died for the war, the Iraqi people, an american president, or for some other invisible principle matters not. What matters is he died as he lived, with respect and honor from the people who knew him best. For all these things shall he forever be remembered in the hearts and minds of all the people he ever met in his 21 years of life. And through all these things shall his sacrifice bring hope to those without it. I will pray for him now. He will not be forgotten.
I will not be sad for his death, rather, I shall always remember the hope he gave me.....the hope from a man I never knew but was connected to through his valiant strength and personal friendship with a man I met on the inernet.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted December 24, 2004 09:17 AM |
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Our kids are our future.
Just like how our parents see us when we watch tv or anythang.
The way kids are brought up effect the future of our world.
Just like how it's effecting us & others our age while our parents tought of war while watching us so young.
What can we do to live in a safe place, there is nothing we can do unfortunately.
Theres too much hate in this world & even in this community.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted December 25, 2004 06:12 AM |
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Oh, Consis, Consis, the HC bard who just loves to turn events into epics. And, as it usually goes in epics, dramatization and exaggeration don’t lack. As I was reading your post, I felt kind of sad, proud, irritated, and had a big smile on my face, all in the same time. 
Quote:
If Svarog is so deeply moved to pass his words of kindness about a person of whom I've never met then I would think this person to be every bit as characteristic as the way Svarog describes.
“Words of kindness”? yeah right. Half of them are censored.
I keep asking myself what I actually described about Nick. As a matter of fact, I’ve never met him. I know only his mother, who told me stuff about him, and its Tracy that I’m worried about the most.
Also, “deeply moved”!? Hmm, I was extremely enraged, sad, and compassionate. But isnt it normal to feel that way for every life lost in vain, especially when that happens in the family of a friend?
But, keep up the good fantasy. Its good for writing stories, based on few clues. 
Whats irritating for me about your little epic, is the way you glorified his death, as if it means something and makes sense.
So, I hate to ruin your knightish trip here, but there’s no compatriotship between me and Nick, theres only humanism; I don’t know of bravery, loyalty and trust, I know only of the doom these things can bring if directed wrongly; and I don’t pass words of kindness and honour, but words of anger and a wake-up call, if there’s anyone vigilant enough not to turn it upside down.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted December 25, 2004 06:44 AM |
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Edited By: Consis on 25 Dec 2004
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As You Wish
You're right Svarog. You didn't know him. I didn't know him.
But his death may not have been as meaningless as you say. I don't write such elaborate eulogies for your entertainment nor mine. I wrote what I wrote because of the way I feel inside.
Inside my heart I know a life has been lost. Whether I knew him or not makes little difference to me because of my beliefs. I believe that every person in the world has their own unique gift to bring into the world. I believe it wasn't what he was that made him so brave and honorable but what he could have become. You see, at a young age, that's what life is all about to me. It's about the possibility. Young people may not have had the time to really understand where they are in the world yet. That's what I mourn Svarog. I am saddened by the loss of the possibilities this young man might have had.
You see, having children of my own has given me an understanding of how important potential is. Potential is that which a baby, that has only just been born, displays in all shapes and forms. The baby hasn't done anything, hurt anyone, heroicly put out raging fires, discovered a cure for disease, or invented a new science that brings all of mankind into a new understanding of life itself. That's the thing you say to yourself when looking upon the most fragile and innocent creature in the world. A baby exudes the possibility of what life could or might be like if only....you say to yourself....if it lives and grows safe from harm and free to become its own person. It deserves a shot at life because that's what life is about.
If you give up, become stagnate, and decide it isn't worth the risk then you may well have become the epitomy of death. That's why I said what I said about this young man you spoke of. He died taking risks. He chose to take the risks because that was his right. It was the right that his parents gave him by raising him to be free. That's what life is all about in my opinion. It's about taking advantage of the freedom you were given and then giving that freedom to your own brood. It is so precious, so important, and so worth fighting for that a child's parents would give up their own lives so that the baby would live on and persue a future of its own.
The death of this person is exactly that. It is the death of a person. Are we not all human? Do we not all breathe and bleed by the same token? Whether I knew him, you knew him, or anyone else does not change the fact that a human being has died. Sadness is sadness.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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