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| Thread: Philosophy question over a glass of beer anyone? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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Conan
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Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 12:27 AM |
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Philosophy question over a glass of beer anyone?
I just ordered a pitcher for anyone who wants to discuss this topic with me.  I've always liked deep thoughts over beer, those nights seem to be the ones I remember most. 
I've been debating an issue with myself over and over again. Now it's time to put it out for debate over a pint.
What existed before nothing?
And please don't tell me "nothing" because that does not make any sense. I want to know what was present before it.
I came to the conclusion that I could not figure this out. I tried naming colors like: it was black. But every time I say something, I catch myself saying there was something. And that's impossible. Or is it? is it possible that before nothing there was something?
Anyone for some Keiths?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted November 30, 2004 01:38 AM |
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Every Creation Day I ask myself about the great before. What was there before? And if it existed before does it exist now? Are we in the before of the next creation? Lots of questions.
These questions are best comtemplated as we decorate the Creation Day Singularity. I know some of my non religious friends call it the BigBang Blowout, but it will always be Creation Day to me. My Wife likes to celebrate Creation Day Eve, but I must remind her that time was non existant before Creation Day so technically there is no Creation Day Eve. But she always trumps my arguement by telling me that if there is no Creation Day eve I won't get to experience the BigBang. Needless to say I will be celebrating CreationDay Eve, I would rather feel like a hypocrit than act like an idiot.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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RedSoxFan3
Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
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posted November 30, 2004 01:46 AM |
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Think about it in terms of Math. If you have nothing what could be less than nothing? There isn't anything less than nothing or before nothing. So either nothing never existed, or nothing is something that can never be achieved that it is an imaginary limit used to describe something at the beginning of time, but even the beginning of time is simply a limit, like infinity is in math.
Okay next question.
Why do they make it hard to open condoms? Is it for the suspense? Or is there some guy watching you struggle with a satelite camera laughing at you fumbling anxiously?
I like this game. 
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Go Red Sox!
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 01:56 AM |
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*Conan pours some beer to redSox and Oldtimer.
glad you came!
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Think about it in terms of Math. If you have nothing what could be less than nothing? There isn't anything less than nothing or before nothing. So either nothing never existed, or nothing is something that can never be achieved that it is an imaginary limit used to describe something at the beginning of time, but even the beginning of time is simply a limit, like infinity is in math.
In math, you can go in negatives, as in owing numbers to the positive side. but in life, you cannot. So to me, it is a hard comparison. When you say "There isn't anything less than nothing" ... that's a whole lot of negatives... if they cancel each other out like math, it gives: "There is something less than nothing". Is that what you mean, if so, it would appear your are in contradiction. *raises eyebrow
I think I understand what you mean, but I will let you clarify.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted November 30, 2004 02:06 AM |
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But she always trumps my arguement by telling me that if there is no Creation Day eve I won't get to experience the BigBang.
Tell her that the BigBang is hell of a powerful experience, and she'll regret if she doesnt let you experience it.
Happy Holidays!
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 02:07 AM |
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..But she always trumps my arguement by telling me that if there is no Creation Day eve I won't get to experience the BigBang. Needless to say I will be celebrating CreationDay Eve, I would rather feel like a hypocrit than act like an idiot.
So thats what the big bang is! Trust the wife to show you the way.
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I came to the conclusion that I could not figure this out. I tried naming colors like: it was black. But every time I say something, I catch myself saying there was something. And that's impossible. Or is it? is it possible that before nothing there was something?
If there is any problem, its that you are trying to know what can't be known with an imperfect tool called your mind. The mind always knows something. "Nothing" freaks it out, because it can't be known.
Nothing is also everything, both being infinite concepts that meet where nothing (or everything) is understood. Ah, but the void beckons, be not afraid, but allow it to envelope your mind that. There lies peace...
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 02:16 AM |
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Svarog, you stayin' for a beer?
*Pours a pint to Shiva - Orders another pitcher...
Hey shiva, I was hoping you'd come here after the hinduism died down in another thread!
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If there is any problem, its that you are trying to know what can't be known with an imperfect tool called your mind. The mind always knows something. "Nothing" freaks it out, because it can't be known.
Nothing is also everything, both being infinite concepts that meet where nothing (or everything) is understood. Ah, but the void beckons, be not afraid, but allow it to envelope your mind that. There lies peace...
Yeah, I came to the same conclusion that the mind is imperfect. Pretty freaky.
BUT.... I don't understand why you say that nothing is everything...? And BTW, I'm not looking for peace... just some interesting conversation to have a beer over in the tavern as some have told me they'd like the tavern to be a little more "Tavernish"
*Looks at my fellow Jets ...errrrrr... Leafs loving Canadian
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted November 30, 2004 02:16 AM |
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I think I know...
First things first...I'll just pour myself a glass of that beer...Thanks!
I believe that what existed before the Big Bang, Genesis, or before there was ANYTHING at all...was EVERYTHING! (Conan, don't start typing your reply about that not making sense just yet) EVERYTHING would have taken shape in 1 single "conscious form" consisting of the basic elements of Creation: All thought, feeling, matter, & energy. (If you think about, there is nothing that exists in Reality that is not composed of these elements or an interaction between them.)
Basically, EVERYTHING existed but did not "understand" who or what IT was. IT "knew" who & what IT was because IT encompassed all knowledge possible, but IT also "knew" that there is a difference between "knowing" who & what you are, and "understanding" those same things. EVERYTHING also "knew" that the only way to truly "understand" something is to experience it!
So, IT thought about a way to Experience ITSELF and decided to Create a few things to help out with this process. EVERYTHING started by Creating a universe of matter & energy, which enabled IT to understand "what" IT was. Using what we know today as "physics & chemistry", IT could calculate IT's size & composition, but IT still did not understand "who" IT was.
In order to do so, IT had to create parts of ITSELF that could think & feel. So, by creating living creatures (such as humans & dogs for example), IT began the everlasting process of intellectual & emotional self-discovery (because humans & dogs both think & feel, although on different levels). Whenever any emotion is felt or experienced by someone or something, this adds to EVERYTHING's understanding of "who" IT is.
Now, for us to "understand" how EVERYTHING existed before there was ANYTHING, you have to put aside any concepts you might have about time, space, or any other measurable event or phenomenon. You have to do this because these things did not exist in the way we know them now, but they existed as part of EVERYTHING. There was no universe "where" you could place IT and there was no time "when" you could find IT. There wasn't any physical shape or size that you could "measure" IT with. Finally, as with the proverbial "chicken & the egg", there wasn't ANYTHING until EVERYTHING decided to Create itself...
Hence my Signature:
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 02:21 AM |
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Edited By: Conan on 29 Nov 2004
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Léo! Buddy! Glad you could come. did you bring Settler's? (inside joke)
Ok, I understand what you are saying and find it very interesting. But, you say IT as in Everything, as IT did not understand ITSELF.
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Finally, as with the proverbial "chicken & the egg", there wasn't ANYTHING until EVERYTHING decided to Create itself...
So then, what was there before IT? What I mean is, to create itself, it had to exist before it's creation. What was before IT?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 02:35 AM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 29 Nov 2004
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Yeah, I came to the same conclusion that the mind is imperfect. Pretty freaky.
BUT.... I don't understand why you say that nothing is everything...? And BTW, I'm not looking for peace... just some interesting conversation to have a beer over in the tavern as some have told me they'd like the tavern to be a little more "Tavernish"
*Looks at my fellow Jets ...errrrrr... Leafs loving Canadian
Leafs are nothing. Before there was nothing (the Leafs) there was everything, the Canadians
There is a reason such things are called mysticism: because they are a mystery. Inquiring, as you did into that mystery is not fruitless, but don't expect an answer, since there is none except that when the mind truly gives up asking questions with no answer, it becomes peaceful. Of course, if all you wanted was to share a beer with friends, whilst you talk about what came before nothing, then the peace might have a slightly drunken tinge to it 
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Basically, EVERYTHING existed but did not "understand" who or what IT was. IT "knew" who & what IT was because IT encompassed all knowledge possible, but IT also "knew" that there is a difference between "knowing" who & what you are, and "understanding" those same things. EVERYTHING also "knew" that the only way to truly "understand" something is to experience it!
Whatever is the source of all of this, call it God or Nothing, has no need of learning or evolving as we know it. That which was then created, which we seem to be, does. Again, it is the flaw of the evolving being to try to understand that which is not born and never dies in its own terms. Throw the terms away, the concepts let the void come...
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted November 30, 2004 03:47 AM |
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To Shiva & all the rest...
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If there is any problem, its that you are trying to know what can't be known with an imperfect tool called your mind. The mind always knows something. "Nothing" freaks it out, because it can't be known.
Refill!!!
The Mind allows us (or will eventually) to "understand" the Energy & Matter elements of EVERYTHING. We can quantify/measure these elements by using concepts that our Minds create and operate with.
To "understand" the Thoughts & Feelings that determine "who" EVERYTHING is, we need to use our Souls & Bodies. The Mind cannot know these things because they are not tangible...just like EVERYTHING was before IT Created itself, Conan! The way humans, and yes animals...like dogs, "understand" Thoughts (i.e. Anger, happiness, depression, euphoria, etc.) & Feelings (i.e. Pleasure, pain, etc.) is with our sensitivity to opposing emotions & sensations. These are provided by our Soul & Body.
If this sounds "far out", why do you think there are so many references to the Mind, Body, & Soul...The Catholics' Holy Trinity, for example. If you're still unsure of my explanantion, think of it this way...
If you were born with consciousness & the knowledge of who & what you are (Matter, Energy, Thoughts, & Feelings), but without any tools (Mind, Body, or Soul) to understand what this information represents, you would exist in a reality composed of only yourself & this knowledge. As far as you would know, you would be EVERYTHING that exists, but without any means of "understanding" who or what you are. Since you would eventually get bored of this situation, at some point you would start looking for a way to resolve this problem. (Remember that you don't even understand what time & space are, so you are in a Reality with NO END & NO BEGINNING) And since the only way to truly "understand" something is to experience it, you would have to Create something outside of yourself with the ability to see Matter, calculate Energy, feel Emotions, and Feel sensations...since you lack these abilities.
Example: You can "know" what pain & love are by Definition, but how can you possibly "understand" these Concepts unless you have "expereinced" their opposites, pleasure or hatred?!
In essence, you would basically need to create something, which was not a part of you, and then compare yourself to that thing. So, in order to "understand" what the concepts of Beginning & End are, you would need to have this thing that you created experience their opposites, through Birth & Death. Then, this thing would report back to you about their experience and allow you to start "understanding" those concepts.
So, to answer Conan's query: It is incorrect to say that nothing existed before EVERYTHING Created Itself through the Big Bang/Genesis, into the current Reality & universe that we know & understand so little about. Before that event, EVERYTHING existed (AND STILL DOES) in the way I described it to you above and then IT created tools that could be measured against each other. And since EVERYTHING is INFINITE, it will never truly "understand" what the Concepts of Beginning & End, no matter how many times we are born & die.
Well, I had better stop MYSELF before I start telling you about how EVERYTHING is essentially different forms and levels of LOVE.
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 04:28 AM |
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here is your refill léo.
*pours some beer to fill 'er up
interesting comments. But then the question remains: what was there before there was this EVERYTHING you speak of?
And Shiva, I like the way you write. very eloquent. Anyways, it is very true how we cannot come to a definite answer on this subject because out minds are so boggled by it. That's the reason I am discussing it. I wanted to hear other people say it. I find it bizarre that some things in the world are subjects to witch we will never have answers. I am amazed by this and love talking about them.
So please, gather around this table big and small for some fascinating conversations.
Léo, how did you come up with this stuff? And how is it we never talked about it the 2 of us?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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sirzapdos
Promising
Famous Hero
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
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posted November 30, 2004 05:47 AM |
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Leafs are nothing. Before there was nothing (the Leafs) there was everything, the Canadians
Amen! Although, you mispelled that last word. It's spelled S-E-N-A-T-O-R-S. But I'll forgive you.
Give me a pitcher of Keith's. It's been too long since I've had some.
About this whole argument, using Math is kind of odd, since as mentioned, some things can be less than 0 (like a bank account balance), and some things can't be less than 0 (like how many bank accounts you have), so it's hard to put a mathematical spin on things like this.
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So I try to live a complicated world...
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 06:09 AM |
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Sirzapdos,
nice to finally meet yet another fellow Canadian. I'll send a pitcher of that fine Indian Pale Ale from Nova Scotia right away.
*signals the waiter
So, moved to Waterloo, have we? I'm glad to see you still have the Senators blood inside you! heheheh. Them blue Leafs are everywhere I bet in Waterloo.
Indeed, the math reasonning is quite unique and I have yet to understand it. I hope he'll come back to our table to let us know what he meant!
In any case, I really happy all these fine people have joined me for a drink.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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sirzapdos
Promising
Famous Hero
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
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posted November 30, 2004 06:14 AM |
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I'm surrounded in a wave of Blue all the time. Waterloo is so close to the GTA, and anyone within 200 miles of the ACC seems to love the Leafs.
While we're on the topic of Math, I'll toss up a question. Can two people arrive at a movie theatre at the same time?
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So I try to live a complicated world...
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 06:22 AM |
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About this whole argument, using Math is kind of odd, since as mentioned, some things can be less than 0 (like a bank account balance), and some things can't be less than 0 (like how many bank accounts you have), so it's hard to put a mathematical spin on things like this.
I agree that mathematics is not the tool for this debate. There are things that can be proved or disproved with mathematical formulas, but these matters tend towards being
of a subjective experential sort. That is, religious experience, or knowledge of nothing, or however you want to phrase it is merely perceived even though its imperceptable, and needs no proof to be valid. The proof is in the eyes and heart of the beholder and how they feel changed by the experience.
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 06:27 AM |
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I agree that mathematics is not the tool for this debate. There are things that can be proved or disproved with mathematical formulas, but these matters tend towards being of a subjective experential sort. That is, religious experience, or knowledge of nothing, or however you want to phrase it is merely perceived even though its imperceptable, and needs no proof to be valid. The proof is in the eyes and heart of the beholder and how they feel changed by the experience.
True. Although I don't understand what you mean by: these matters tend towards being of a subjective experential sort. Don't you mean objective? I've always found pure science to be objective.
Sir Z,
no, down to the billionth of a second, no. Impossible as there is an infinite number of numbers after and it is impossible to have the exact same time.
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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sirzapdos
Promising
Famous Hero
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
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posted November 30, 2004 06:30 AM |
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Bingo. We're studying probability of what are called continuous functions, and the probability of this function at an exact point is 0, regardless of the point, for the reason you stated.
But we digress...
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So I try to live a complicated world...
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Conan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 06:32 AM |
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Edited By: Conan on 30 Nov 2004
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I knew you'd be here...
yes, indeed. but what do you mean by digress?
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Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG
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LichKing
Honorable
Known Hero
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posted November 30, 2004 06:55 AM |
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Oldtimer, you rock!
RSF, speaking of condoms, you ever notice anything funny about the serial numbers they put on them?
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SOUND THE CHARGE!! INTO GLORY RIDE!!!
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