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| Thread: Philosophy question over a glass of beer anyone? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted December 11, 2004 02:32 PM |
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How about I have the glass of beer and you have the philosophy question?
aww alright. the answer to your question is this:
There was no existence before nothing. Time has and always will be. There is no beginning and no end to 'existence', despite what anything Neo, Smith or the Oracle will tell you.
How can there be something before nothing? The question itself does not make sense, but neither does my answer.
Now the next question is: why, if my answer is correct (as always), can we not understand it?
The answer to this you may understand a bit easier. This is kind of like the question of whether the Universe goes on forever. The reason we cannot comprehend 'infinity' is because our minds are 'finite' no matter how much we brag.
If our minds were 'infinite' then, and only then, would we be able to comprehend something going on forever. However, if someones mind was 'infinite' then we wouldn't be sitting here discussing this matter, as he would have answered anything and everything.
Our minds are finite, because our lives are finite. no matter how we try to deny it, we were all born at one stage which was not the "start" of time, and we will all die at some stage. Every single one of us. This puts a limit on our brains. If we can't last forever... how can anything else? These are the questions we cannot comprehend. So we cannot see that there is nothing before nothing, because there never was a 'nothing' and there always was a something.
I mean, how could there be such thing as a 'nothing'? Because 'nothing' is not taken into account of 'something' simply because it is 'nothing' so there cannot be 'something' before or during 'nothing'. That leads us back to the fact that there never was 'nothing' because if something 'was' then it was 'something' which means it is not 'nothing'. Again, we have 'finite' minds so we cannot comprehend how there could not be a start to 'everything'.
Summarized answer: There never was nothing so there cannot be something before nothing. There is no beginning nor end to the universe.
Cheers,
Sensei~
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John says to live above hell.
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2004 03:21 PM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 11 Dec 2004
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In other words, when your current Body & Mind will die, your Soul will be awakened & released, and you will return to being who you naturally are, but with new experiences from your past life. ***Have you ever heard of people seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel or seeing white & golden Angels when they die or have a "near-death experience"? Or have you heard of how they describe feeling a complete sense of well-being, peace, & Absolute Love?*** This is what EVERYTHING is and this is what our Souls give up every time they choose to enter our reality! They sacrifice existing in happiness, joy, truth, peace, and love (as a part of EVERYTHING) because they do not truly "understand" what those things are. And in order to better "understand" them, your Soul will often seek to "experience" them directly or throught their Opposites.
I'm afraid I have to side with Svarog and ask how do you know? I think I can answer that also. You don't know, you have read and assumed you know. And then again, if you say you have communed with your soul and seen, let me bring in one point. IMAGINATION. There are fantasy books that create whole worlds out of the imagination. When you look inwards to your soul, what do you see? Many times, you see what you want to see because of preconcieved ideas from books you have read and the power of the imagination to bring these things into being.
For example, how many cult leaders or mass murderers have said they heard voices that they believed were the voice of God, and then led their follwers to death, or killed many people because of this. Just because you see or hear something in your mind does not make it worthy of being followed.
Experience happens in different ways. There is direct experience when one sees for them selves, and there is indirect experience when one infers from others words or clues that something is so. Philosophy changes to religious experience when one has their own direct experience of the Unity. Before that, it as all hearsay.
What is direct experience of Unity? It has nothing to do with heaven or hell, or even an individual soul, since these are just manifestations of imagination, part of duality. The Vedantic term is Maya or illusion.
Reincarnation and karma have nothing to do with it. Direct experience comes as the waves of thought subside. First, become quiet and still, then the true vision can appear. And of that experience, I truly cannot speak anymore.
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Svarog
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posted December 11, 2004 06:36 PM |
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(Now why does this thread still stay in tavern. I think this is other side material.)
Leo, knowledge gained through “Introspection in your Soul”, as you say, is a philosophical episthemological concept that has been known to philosophers as sensualism. If I get you right, you rely more on instinct and intuitivity than reason or experience, right?
Now, I think that getting in contact with yourself is a good thing, but trying to understand the world through that has some problems. Heres why:
It just happens that all people who practice Introspection with their soul, come to different conclusions about the world. And you claim they all posses soul, which is “made of the same material”, where the same hidden messages about the nature of the world lie. How is that possible that some of them know theres heaven and hell others don’t; some know theres reincarnation, others don’t; some know theres nothing; others deny etc. And as you said, (“I do not believe "my" messages to be only "my" truth, but everyone’s truth!”) our goal is to construct an image of the objective reality and those are the terms in which we try to understand existance. No one would satisfy with the notion that each soul has subjective answers for reality, and thus each soul has a different destiny after it leaves the body, or that the world is different for everyone (actually there were some wackoes in history of philosophy who have claimed this, but that’s irrelevant). But as you see, constructing objective reality from subjective introspections with the soul is impossible, since everyone comes to different answers. If you read Marx, who says theres no God or higher conscionce, and you ask your soul what he thinks about it, the answer he will give, will be in contrast with the answer my “soul” would give. Whats the problem? Am I less competent than you? If that’s the case and you believe your truth to be the objective one, then you’ll come in conflict with another 6 billion so called objective truths, and that’s not a pretty cohesion, is it? And this logical consequence (more correctly, lack of consequence) undermines your argument about how we gain knowledge (through introspection with soul).
As for the objective indications to the truth (phenomena that happen in reality and point to the truth), I believe that’s the only common ground where we can search for answers about any kind of objective truth, and that’s why I said, i don’t care how strong your sensualism is (i.e. believe what you want), as long as you don’t claim there are such indications which prove your truth. (In fact I would be glad to hear them, but they don’t exist unfortunately.)
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Leo_Lion
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posted December 13, 2004 07:49 AM |
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We're in the Tavern just drinking & talking...
Good stuff T-A...Nice to see you join us for a drink and a little conversation! Pull up a stool, you've got alot of drinking/catching up to do and they might take a while...hiccup! 
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I'm afraid I have to side with Svarog and ask how do you know? /IMAGINATION. /Many times, you see what you want to see because of preconcieved ideas from books you have read and the power of the imagination to bring these things into being.
Shiva, why are you afraid to side with Svarog? Are you chicken?! Hahaha!  P.S. I like you're "***" thing in the quotes!
Imagination is an ability of the Mind, therefore if I am Introspecting properly, it should not interfere and only the Truth should be accessible.
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For example, how many cult leaders or mass murderers have said they heard voices that they believed were the voice of God, and then led their follwers to death, or killed many people because of this. Just because you see or hear something in your mind does not make it worthy of being followed.
/Experience happens in different ways. There is direct experience when one sees for them selves, and there is indirect experience when one infers from others words or clues that something is so.
If people are schizophrenic and hear voices in there head or see things that are not there, those are issues of the Mind & Body. That would have nothing to do with the Soul.
If a normal & healthy person decided to start killing lots of people because they "felt like it" or "felt it was a means to an end" (More power or money), then that is an experience their Soul came into our reality seeking. Remember that I said you can understand something as easily from its opposite as you can from the thing itself. So, if someone does something unLoving, unTruthful, or unHappy; their Soul will be able to understand more about itself & EVERYTHING, once it has an opportunity to review these experiences, because it will have experienced the opposites of itself.
This same opportunity exists for people who are either direct victims of cruel or evil actions or those who witness them being committed. Even though they did not initiate the events themselves, these people can still learn about themselves through their reactions to the aggressor's actions. So, when someone is hurting you or you see them hurting someone else, you cannot help but having some sort of reaction.
I mentioned this earlier during our "debate": Everyone reacts...but only a small minority review their reactions. Remember that the Meaning of Life is to experience an INFINITE amount of things so that our Soul can learn/understand more about itself & EVERYTHING from them. Whether that review/understanding process takes place NOW or after your Mind & Body die, is up to you.
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Direct experience comes as the waves of thought subside. First, become quiet and still, then the true vision can appear.
Are you trying to agree with me here? Because it sure seems like you are! Sure sounds a lot like Introspection, eh? 
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Leo, knowledge gained through “Introspection in your Soul”, as you say, is a philosophical episthemological concept that has been known to philosophers as sensualism. If I get you right, you rely more on instinct and intuitivity than reason or experience, right?
Svarog, I'm going to be blunt about this "sensualism"! I don't believe Philosophy can tell more about the Soul/EVERYTHING/universe than Religion or Science can. So, that is why I rely on my Soul for the Truth and nothing else.
As for my reliance on Instinct, that is an ability of the Body (i.e. run from danger), so I do not use it when Introspecting. Everyone has heard of "Mind over Matter", so your Will/Mind can overrule your Instincts/Body and make you face your fears; but the Truth is this: "Mind over Matter & Soul over both!" If your Soul desires something, there is nothing your Mind & Body can do to stop it. For example, if your Soul wants to return to its Natural state of existence, but you are healthy & intelligent, your Soul can just kill you! You might suddenly drop dead, be in an accident, or develop some deadly disease. Regardless of how much your Mind & Body may fight this outcome, your Soul controls both and can make them do anything!
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It just happens that all people who practice Introspection with their soul, come to different conclusions about the world. And you claim they all posses soul, which is “made of the same material”, where the same hidden messages about the nature of the world lie.
Of course this is True! While every Soul "knows" all about EVERYTHING & INFINTY, each Soul does not have the same "understanding" of these. Each Soul is on an individual quest to have INFINITE experiences and to gain understanding of these. So, if 2 different people Introspect, you can be sure that they will come to different conclusions about the world around them. The main difference between these 2 people will be: What questions are being asked and how often?
The desire for understanding is INFINTE, so if you are not always Introspecting about everything around you & about how you react to it, then your Soul is not necessarily going to be at the same level of Spiritual Maturity as someone else's Soul. So, "Don't fall asleep at the wheel!"
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If you read Marx, who says theres no God or higher conscionce, and you ask your soul what he thinks about it, the answer he will give, will be in contrast with the answer my “soul” would give.
Great thinkers, are just that: Thinkers! If I read Marx, Freud, or Nietzsche and then properly performed Introspection; my Soul would see the Truth in "the logic" of their "intellectual" arguments and tell me how it applies to the world around me. But, if I have not "communed" with my Soul about the world around me, then my overall understanding of it will obviously be lacking. So, that is why there are differences between people who use Introspection.
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As for the objective indications to the truth (phenomena that happen in reality and point to the truth), I believe that’s the only common ground where we can search for answers about any kind of objective truth. /as long as you don’t claim there are indications which prove your truth.
This is good stuff Svarog! I get it now; you are just making a distinction between the things that "point" to the Truth and those that "prove" the Truth, right? Well, I totally agree with you on this one! There are many things in the world around us that "point" to the Truth, but the only thing that can "prove" the Truth is our Soul! And since we are the only ones who can communicate with our own Soul, it is up to us to use these "pointers" during Introspection, so that the Truth can be revealed and understanding can be gained.
Thank you very much Shiva & Svarog for helping me clarify these issues to you, & also, to myself!
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 13, 2004 02:32 PM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 13 Dec 2004
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Imagination is an ability of the Mind, therefore if I am Introspecting properly, it should not interfere and only the Truth should be accessible.
Yes it is, and the question is can you see how you are using the power of imagination as you speak so freely about "your" truth.
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If people are schizophrenic and hear voices in there head or see things that are not there, those are issues of the Mind & Body. That would have nothing to do with the Soul....
Everyone has enormous potential as a living being. That potential includes negative possibilities as well. In the exporation of one's soul, as increased energy and awareness come in, all these things have a possibility of coming into being. The path to the soul is an arduous trip, not a cakewalk. I'm merely pointing out, with an extreme example, of what can arise.
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. Whether that review/understanding process takes place NOW or after your Mind & Body die, is up to you.
How do you KNOW there is an after? You are assuming because someone told you that it is so. Try to distinguish between your own direct experience and words of others that have influenced your thinking.
Are you trying to agree with me here? Because it sure seems like you are! Sure sounds a lot like Introspection, eh?
Here you have totally misunderstood me. I'm not arguing about the substance of your thinking or the need for meditation/introspection, but I am pointing out how the thinking process takes place and what the attitude of the thinker is. So its not an argument if the sky is blue, but how we see the blue in the first place, whilst saying at the same time, there are clouds in the sky. I have no disagreement with the path you're on. I applaud your efforts 
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Leo_Lion
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posted December 17, 2004 08:02 AM |
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I guess I better stop drinking...
Thanks for the applause, Shiva! I also want to thank you for joining me and...*looks around to see everyone else passed out*...well, for joinning me, anyways ...in this interesting discussion!
I know it might sound ignorant or deluded of me to say this, but I live a life of Absolute Certainties (Truth, After-life, etc.) because I believe in my Soul. I do this because I have felt it!!!
One night, after reading through a chapter of Conversations with God, I Introspected for hours, and when I was done...I felt electric! I was so happy and so full of Spiritual energy that I didn't sleep for 2 days and never felt better in my life! Everywhere I walked, it felt like I was floating. Everyone I saw, I smiled at sincerily. Everything I touched, felt like it became part of me. I could feel the energy pouring out of me and affecting all things around me. Dude...it was magic! I could have died at any moment and it would have been fine by me!
For 2 days I lived as close to EVERYTHING as I ever have in my current life and it felt so great, that I make a point of trying to recapture that feeling on a daily basis...even if just for a moment. I can describe this sensation all I want, but as with anything, you have to experience it yourself to truly understand.
This is my point: When you exist as only your Soul, you feel like I did (during those 2 days) all of the time! Heck, you probably even feel better! But, that doesn't help you since you don't understand what that feeling is. The True way to understand that feeling, is to experience it! And just so we're clear on this...that feeling is EVERYTHING!
Now, you might say that the feeling I had was sparked by reading a book, written by someone else. Well, let me tell you this (as I said to Svarog in my last Post): Most books, lectures, seminars, and songs that have helped me discover more about my Soul, have only "pointed" me in the right direction. They helped me learn "HOW" to search my Soul through Introspection and did not tell me "WHAT" I would find. It's through the experiences that I have on a daily basis that I "know" my Soul is telling me THE TRUTH. It's through the very essence of being alive that I know there is something greater waiting for me after my Mind & Body's death.
P.S. If I was face-to-face with anyone during these discussions, I would be willing to wager that I would have "tickled" their Soul by now and that they would feel it beginning to awaken...and that feeling would be great! I know we have gotten off topic from the Thread's original question, but I just wish that everyone could experience 2 days of Spiritual energy, like I did.
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted December 17, 2004 11:21 AM |
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Sorry to be against the flow here, but why did your "spiritual energy" spree ended after only 2 days Leo? Run out of karma?As much as i want to rally to your point of view, the thruth remains:each and every single time you think you're detached from reality and from all that is teluric,something comes up and hits you in the face,virtually knocking you back with your feet on the ground,back to your pathethic daily existance.If you want more of this read a book by one of my countrymen: Mircea Eliade(it's translated in english for sure),it's called "Maitreyi".Belive me, it's worth the effort.
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Leo_Lion
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posted December 17, 2004 06:15 PM |
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2 of the best days of my life...
Tigris, the reason my Spiritual Free-for-All ended after 2 days was not because something "hit me in the face & knocked me back", but simply because I lost touch with my Soul.
Imagine the process of Introspection as being similar to breaking down a barrier. When I spent hours in Introspection that night...I really did some damage to the wall holding back my Soul. This allowed my Soul to release its Spiritual Energy directly into me. Over the next 2 days, I was completely immersed in that energy and could even feel it flowing into others as I spoke to them.
For example, the second day of my "Spiritual Buffet", I was speaking to a fellow student at University, who wasn't feeling very happy. Without getting into too many details, I basically just reassured her that everything would be ok and told her to try & look on the bright side of life. By the end of our conversation, she was beaming with joy! She even told me that she couldn't explain why she felt so good; but that it had simply come from talking to me.
The reason why that feeling faded, is because my Body & Mind were getting tired and needed to rest. In addition, that barrier around my Soul that I had taken down, was slowly but surely building itself back up. Essentially, first-hand experiences like this reinforce my belief in the whole process of Introspection & the concept of Spiritual Energy. And as I helped out that student a few years ago, talking about Spirituality with all of you...is helping me right now.
P.S. I don't find my normal existence "pathetic"...far from it!
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 17, 2004 08:23 PM |
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Edited By: Shiva on 17 Dec 2004
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Nice to hear of your experience Leo. This is first hand info that you had yourself. And your interpretation of why it closed down is pretty accurate. Speaking of these things
in the manner you did is as close to speaking the truth of ourselves as one can. If you wonder how I know, then I'll tell you that I've been there also
Such epiphanies are the spur that leads one on to seek a more permanent exalted state of mind. Hence, a method of spiritual practice, meditation or introspection as you put it, a tradition that allows a person to seek of their own volition what might have come almost accidentally at first.
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Leo_Lion
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posted December 17, 2004 11:21 PM |
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Oh yeah...Now we're talking!
Shiva...you hit the nail on the head! I totally love what you just Posted.
I am curious to know if these are your beliefs and if so, how you go about seeking a higher state of consciousness...consciousness...consciousness?! (*old Dance Music*)
I've been running my mouth for a while and you've done a good job critiquing my Posts, but now I want to hear from you...about yourself! Out with it man!
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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Svarog
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posted December 18, 2004 04:12 AM |
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There are many things in the world around us that "point" to the Truth, but the only thing that can "prove" the Truth is our Soul! And since we are the only ones who can communicate with our own Soul, it is up to us to use these "pointers" during Introspection, so that the Truth can be revealed and understanding can be gained.
Its strange to think that Truth can be proven, even more strange that the one to prove it would be your soul. First, let me ground this discussion a bit on a reasonable level. There’s always the danger to start talking rant, if too much spirituality replaces actual nouns and real terms. So, what was that when we talked about the Truth? Truth, and also the original purpose of this thread, is the reality of the world, as it exists; i.e. if there are souls, god, afterlife, beginning/end of universe…
As I expressed myself previously, I find it highly frivolous to believe that all these answers can be answered by each soul, given that we introspect with it. Here, the simple fact being that many people find conflicting truths, so its not about exploring different aspects of the truth that makes individuals different, as you say, but actually completely conjunctive facts of the truth, which cannot coexist. To put it bluntly, you say there’s EVERYTHING, I say there’s nothing, some Christian guy says theres God, his son Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Who’s right?
Introspect all you want if it makes you feel good (the mind is a powerful thing indeed), but if I were you, I wouldn’t rely on introspection in order to gain facts about the real world. In conclusion, I believe your soul cant prove or point the Truth, it can only spin in all directions like a compass and if you’ve noticed how a fast spinning object creates a virtual still object, so too we see our soul “showing” us the Truth, but its no more than seeing what we want to see.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Leo_Lion
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posted December 21, 2004 07:04 AM |
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You take one down & pass it around...
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you say there’s EVERYTHING, I say there’s nothing, some Christian guy says theres God, his son Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Who’s right?
All of these things are the same, Svarog. So, we are all correct...that is the Truth!
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Introspect all you want if it makes you feel good (the mind is a powerful thing indeed), but if I were you, I wouldn’t rely on introspection in order to gain facts about the real world.
I don't know if I'm just being picky here, but Introspection is done with the Soul and not the Mind. The Soul is your source of emotions, while the Mind is your source of thoughts & ideas.
I rely on Introspection to give me Truths about the real world, not facts. Facts are toys for your Mind to play with and they inevitably distract you from Absolute Certainty. In the end, if you play with your toys too much and only live in-the-moment, you'll realise that you've missed many opportunities to understand life itself.
And by the way Svarog, Introspection does make me "feel" good, so thanks for encouraging me to do it as much as I want. I haven't been able to get my wife to say that yet...hmmmm?!
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In conclusion, I believe your soul cant prove or point the Truth...
If anything, Svarog, at least I got you to admit that you believe in a Soul! What would J-P Sartre say about you now?! Hahaha!
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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McWilliams
Tavern Dweller
Kensai of the Oda Clan
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posted December 22, 2004 05:30 PM |
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Good ale could prove to be the salvation of the world, don't you agree?
I believe in honour, in the karma, in the Buddha. Life is a waste. Nothing is as it seems. Some say we live in order to prepare for the life after death. Others say we don't live at all. Very confusing, if you ask me, but you didn't; and, with any luck, you never will. I am glad that I do not have such dilemmas. I follow Buddha. I have pledged my life to him, and he has given me shelter. I need not concern myself with such procrastinations. Everyone must believe in something. Even atheists believe in something. Having your own opinion is what gives you life. It’s not about being for or against, it’s about being active or passive. Believing in something gives you stability; denying everything just makes you weaker. By asking such ridiculous questions, you attempt to cover up the fact that you know next to nothing. Have fate, in anything, and it will give you the strength, the power, the will to carry on. So says Buddha.
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"Words like violence/ Break the silence/ Come crashing in/ Into my little world."
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted January 13, 2005 08:41 PM |
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A interesting thing to add, i have.
People often discuss "The life after death", or what and what not.
Today i came across an interesting thought, while i was in my own mind, i suddenly had this idea in my head.. What if THIS, was the life after death? What if i'm already in it?
Any ideas?
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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McWilliams
Tavern Dweller
Kensai of the Oda Clan
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posted January 13, 2005 08:54 PM |
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Life after death
Good point! Yet I very much doubt it. Should we be already dead, we should have memories of our "life"; death is only a portal, through which you pass into another place. Yet, acording to budhism, your memory is neither erased, nor overwritten, even if you were reincarnated 40 days after your previous death. To put it plainly, if you consider yourself already dead, just go ahead and jump in front of a truck! ) Then tell us about your experience.
P.S. No hard feelings, ok?
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"Words like violence/ Break the silence/ Come crashing in/ Into my little world."
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 13, 2005 08:57 PM |
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What if THIS, was the life after death? What if i'm already in it?
Yes, that would be scary indeed- if it actually happened. This is a very interesting topic. It is kind of similar to talking Reincarnation, although I don't really believe in that stuff. By the way, I can't think of a single person's life I'm taking after right now. Not that I'd need to know or anything, but it falls outside my personal beliefs.
-guitarguy
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McWilliams
Tavern Dweller
Kensai of the Oda Clan
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posted January 13, 2005 09:04 PM |
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Quote:
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What if THIS, was the life after death? What if i'm already in it?
Yes, that would be scary indeed- if it actually happened. This is a very interesting topic. It is kind of similar to talking Reincarnation, although I don't really believe in that stuff. By the way, I can't think of a single person's life I'm taking after right now. Not that I'd need to know or anything, but it falls outside my personal beliefs.
-guitarguy
Why not? What do you believe in then? In Christ? In Resurrection? In the fact that he ascended to the sky? In the fact that you can redeem your soul through prayers? And if you believe in these thinks, why not in reincarnation? This isn’t a declaration of war, but just a way through which I may be able to find out what are your beliefs, and to share my own opinion on them (whether you like it or not )!
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"Words like violence/ Break the silence/ Come crashing in/ Into my little world."
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Shiva
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 13, 2005 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
A interesting thing to add, i have.
People often discuss "The life after death", or what and what not.
Today i came across an interesting thought, while i was in my own mind, i suddenly had this idea in my head.. What if THIS, was the life after death? What if i'm already in it?
Any ideas?
If this is life after death, then its time to ask for a new deal, RealDeal.
Seriously, discussing what happens after we die or if this is what happens after we die lies in the area of
speculation. You cannot really prove or disprove any theory
about what is true. You can state what you believe, but beliefs are often unsupported wishes based on fantasy or what someone else told you.
Now, I wont say never believe anyone else, but the most
important thing, IMO, is to extend your own experience
and knowledge as far as it can go. The place to start is
with who you are here in this world.
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted January 13, 2005 09:18 PM |
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We really don't know if we are in the "afterlife" we can't proove it, and vica verca..
Very interesting though..
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted January 13, 2005 09:19 PM |
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We really don't know if we are in the "afterlife" we can't proove it, and vica verca..
Very interesting though..
____________
*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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