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| Thread: Let's talk about Online Games |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 14, 2005 10:03 PM |
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Edited By: dimis on 27 May 2005
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Let's talk about Online Games
My regards to all of you out there who have recently (or not! :-) ) found out the real challenge of online games. This thread is dedicated for aspects concerning online games, more specifically rules and regulations when playing online, ways of handling certain circumstances (regarding the behaviour of your opponent) and everything else (which might not be clear right now) that can fall in this broad category (Read the following and you 'll have a taste of what I mean).
This thread is NOT intended for STRATEGIES when playing games (although from what it actually follows, you "might" get the feeling that sometimes {if not *most* of the times!} we all have to face peculiar aspects with our opponents).
I am a newbie on online games in Heroes III (signed up early on March 2005) and I believe my questions/thoughts reflect questions/thoughts/etc. of various players of varying skills and mainly have to deal with good-clean games, which from my minor net-experience seems to be sth. unreal.
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* The following are not the main reason that started this thread, but might be useful preliminaries for newbies. (You can find more info on more appropriate threads - this is just guidance, please scan other threads for info of this kind):
a) In order to set up a net-game, one has to follow the orders on page:
How can I solve my online gaming problems exactly?
b) Most people play according to the rules found on page:
Sample Rules Page
-> You should also state before the game starts whether you allow double building (building for creatures castles other than the initial one, since this varies between players ... )
c) When playing Random Maps, one should use one of the templates found on page:
(perhaps by following the appropriate link - I just "copy/paste" my bookmark)
Random Maps
d) Question: What happens if my opponent doesn't report his/her win (??)/loss?
Answer: Please visit the page found
here
for further info in TOH rated games.
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And now I am ready to pose some interesting (i hope at least!) questions/thoughts concerning online games:
1) One thing that irritates me most is when a player's line drops.
Should this be allowed on online games? I am afraid not. You see, the player that behaves that way, usually takes about 5 minutes before he/she re-enters zone. During that time ofcourse he/she can open the entire map, view your hero (stats, creatures, etc.), the location of your castles, and the amount of map that has been opened by you. It seems surprising how often this "accident" happens on later parts of the game, which is an indication that people take advantage of it. (I once played with someone for about 5 hours and during the last critical hour, his line dropped twice! And that's only the tip of the iceberg...)
? Why not setting up an extra rule (since there are so many in order to keep game as balanced as possible) saying that the player loses the game if his/her line drops?
Tell me your opinions and please use arguments. In case needed I can argue with saves that I can post on internet (as you can realize, I have not many since I am a new player, but hope they are convincing....).
2) Speaking of rules, let me express some thoughts about them (which I hope will triger the main discussion in this thread).
First of all I must admit that I couldn't see the reason of posing all these rules (NOTs) on games, since the game was actually developed without having in mind all these NOTs. Anyway, I 've not made up my mind yet as to whether it is correct to follow all (or some) of these rules, since most of them are posed in order to make the game AS BALANCED AS POSSIBLE. But how can one actually be certain on "balance"? There is no obvious answer to that.
* In most of the games played online, one of the rules is to fight misplaced guards (on which I certainly agree) and in all circumstances (playing with rules ..) fly and dd (dimension-door) are not allowed for obvious reasons. But how can someone check that his opponent didn't cheat and used 4 or 5th level scrolls? There is no obvious answer I am afraid ...
* My first advice is: DO NOT under any circumstances report your loss immediately after the game. Check out the map on the final round. Some people are so stupid that cheat and don't do the necessary "procedures" to cover their cheats ... (And me granting them win because I needed some sleep and thought the guys were "ok" during game chatting :-( ) For example, someone uses d/d and entes an area acquiring a castle (or more), experience and so on, where under "normal" (agreed??? :-)) circumstances he/she should have given a fight with an enormous army and DID NOT. That way, he/she acquired the artifact(s) / bonus experience / etc. without a single loss and then he/she comes over to your place and of course kills you! It is interesting however that some of these guys don't play well on final battle, and although their stats are way better than yours their losses are tremendous. :-)
If you want an example of a game played that way, inform me and I will post the saves as soon as I can.
* So, how can someone get on with that? The obvious answer is: save game EVERY turn! But this is totally boring ... Do you have a better idea? How all of you deal with these situations?
* Is there anybody out there that was member (or at least knows a member) of the 3DO programming team? I am a programmer as well, and i would be glad to develop a patch/extra (call it whatever you like!) that does that job. But of course i need some guidance or have a look on code ...
* That way, your opponent can not take advantage of the fly/dd spell (scroll) for more than a mere turn. But again, that turn might be very critical. He uses d/d, scouts the area for a while, finds a horrific artifact and then breaks the heavy barrier that didnot allow him to grab that artifact (of course fighting as well misplaced guards AFTER getting the artifact). Well, some of you might say "he might not find an artifact on the new area he enters!". I agree with you, but seems like you missed my first (1) thought regarding phone lines ... ;-) So the problem is still not solved if we allow lines that drop. (I am just curious: "How often do you experience troubles with your phone lines?" We all live in the 21st century though and I must admit on the minor nation of Greece where I happen to live the problem is almost diminished! Of course I will be disappointed if I lose the game, but this rule seems quite fair for clean-gaming.)
* There are other points as well that need consideration. For example, there is no way one can check out if someone uses a scroll like ressurection or chain lightning ... So, what is the point of prohibiting them? Just for the final battle? Well, it seems that it is going to be too late then since your opponent who used these scrolls has gained a tremendous experience?
As a result, I can think only the following: Is there a Random Map generator that prohibits 4-5 spell-scrolls? I would really be happy and agree to play that way only. Is there another solution? Tell me your thoughts..
3) As I said, I am a newbie and don't know anything about the rules on turnaments. Perhaps you can comment anything you find reasonable with the above thoughts.
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** I 've written all the above because I really like Heroes III and want to play honorably. Unfortunatelly, it seems that most people care more on winning, regardless of the way they actually win! Shouldn't they be punished for doing so?
** I don't care if I lose. For example, my first game on net was really instructive for me. It showed me that I used to follow wrong tactics (went for gold first week, instead of creatures... :-( ) and I am really greatful to my opponent and thank him for the game. But since then, I've played 4 more rated games and on 2 of them people fooled me with rediculus cheats (combined with the above) another one that seemed to play a clear-game complained for the template of the random map generator I used (which I didn't know what it was till then :-) on a critical battle between main heroes (which I could easily win with minimal losses) and the last one has not yet reported his loss (I have a save and hope for justice on TOH council. :-) ).
** I believe it is reasonable to say that I DO MIND if someone beats me by cheating! After all, why should I play honorably for 3-6 hours and someone spoils the game? Is rating all that matters? If it is for you, then classify me to a group that loses rating regardless of the outcome! I hope it is clear that ...
** ALL I CARE ABOUT IS THE GAME! I want to become a better player, enjoy the game and have fun. Unfortunatelly there are dozens of spoilsports out there. Shouldn't they be severely punished so that the game remains enjoyable?
?? Are there any templates for random map generators that don't allow 4-5 level scrolls and prohibit the usual "stuff" on mage guilds?
** Pick a topic from above, comment and let the conversation begin!
** I have more comments for the situations that arise on internet but hope the above will suffice to start an edifying dialogue. More on subsequent posts ...
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My Best Heroic Regards,
Dimis
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c0ldshadow
Known Hero
ig chr0meice91
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posted March 15, 2005 05:33 AM |
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hey,great post i think there should be some interesting responses...
i have been playing heroes 3 for over 3 years and i believe in NO RULES WHATSOEVER. i mainly play with a small group of friends who agree with me on this philosophy.
your first reaction might be that this is stupid, but my reason for believing in no rules is because it is simply to hard to enforce them... and it is a waste of time even consider rules because homm3 will never be totally fair.. and trying to make it remotely fair and for all you know the other person will cheat! i believe just let the game be as it is..if you get mauled, suck it up play again.
because different people like different rules, it can totally suck. it is soo hard to find a game sometimes.
i dont care if the map is unbalanced and my opponent mauls me.. this just makes me want to play again and hope the luck is more on my side. luck evens out and i dont mind it.
so all and all i think rules are a waste of time especially when they are so annoying to enforce plus people cheat anyways and people should learn to accept that luck is part of life, as it is part of heroes.
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Dingo
Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
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posted March 15, 2005 06:00 AM |
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Quote:
i have been playing heroes 3 for over 3 years and i believe in NO RULES WHATSOEVER.
A 3 year H3 vet against the computer, is nothing compared to a 3 week H3 vet against humans.
No Rules... lol... Let's all run around with the Conflux and Necro!
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The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted March 15, 2005 07:01 AM |
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Quote:
So, how can someone get on with that? The obvious answer is: save game EVERY turn! But this is totally boring ... Do you have a better idea? How all of you deal with these situations?
go here , click on "others" (first link top right) for an automatic save program.(still don't know how to use it though  )
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c0ldshadow
Known Hero
ig chr0meice91
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posted March 15, 2005 08:04 AM |
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Quote:
A 3 year H3 vet against the computer, is nothing compared to a 3 week H3 vet against humans.
i am aware of this but i dont see what that has anything to do with rules?
and regarding the necro/flux thing, if people want to be those towns let them. you have the option of being the same town..
i dont care if people run around with necro and flux. in fact i would rather play a necro or flux town for more of a challenge. i have many times before, vs human players. and it is not an impossible win although difficult. if you get diplo and they dont you could maul them. but of course rules ban diplo often... maybe if there werent rules like this other castles would be more likely to have a chance... so here we have a rule, banning diplo, which is suppost to make the game more fair, when in certain situations makes it more unfair
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted March 15, 2005 09:09 AM |
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hmmm...
and what might those situations be?
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted March 15, 2005 10:07 AM |
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Hi, and welcome to the forum 
Player that drops: well, not everyone lives in the city, thus, a stable internet connection simply aint possible to get. Also, pc's have a tendency of, well  just restarting, which happens to me from time to time, I am no cheater in that case. A no drop rule. That is someone many have thought of, I know I wouldnt play ya if ya had that rule. I play for the fun of the game, and so does most other people online. If the opponent drops on you to look at a save, then he is a cheater anyhow. There's lots of ways to cheat, dont you think he would find another way if he couldnt drop? There is lots of in game ways to know how your opponent is doing, where he is and where to go to kick his ass, peeking at saves isnt even a good cheat The main point is, in general, trust your opponent, most players dont cheat, and no fun to play if you worry to much about cheating, if you see an obvious cheat then make a save of it and catch the bastard 
Your second point here is an obvious point, once again I will advice you to trust your opponent, usually he/she playes fair. It is also an option to play players that have a nice reputation already The more you play online, the better and the more honorable your opponents will be.
welcome to the community once more. Good luck with your gaming, and have fun
PS: I advice you to join this tournament: ww as Tournament of Honor is dead. This tournament have a active leader and many fun subtournaments. It is also easy to find honorable players Especially check out Tribes
With regards
LordLazy
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Tagged officially as Noobegian two years ago. This typographic material is strictly copyrighted. All situations containing abuse will be brought to court.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 15, 2005 10:31 AM |
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I agree that too much rules destroy the fun of the game, no doubt. But i think the main point of the game should be "skill" and not "luck". Every strategy game which contains random settings or placments have a hugh amount of luck involved, so the goal should be to "delete" as much luck as you can. The randomness about the spells in your mageguild canīt be effected, but you are able to have more mageguilds coz you have more towns....chances to get good spells are higher though.
This game is ment to be a tactical game where you have to think about what you do, where you probably have to doubt about the result of a fight, so you wonīt get into it, but try later perhaps. The player who has more knowledge about the strength of his army will make more "close" fights than the other one and will gather good arties or ressources earlier and take advantage out of that fact. That is what i call skill.
But what skill you need to gather hordes and hordes of Level 7 creatures with diplomacy? It looks nice to have a hugh army on your main hero, but u will probably meet your opponent with 1/10 of your army strength and game is over in first round of battle. You played perhaps 4 or 5 hours....for nothing...Even a 5 year old child can win a game when getting diplomacy.
The same goes with Dimension Door and Fly. There is some kind of sense behind the fact, good arties are guarded by strong monsters. You should have good skills to kill them earlier than your opponent to get them as reward. But what skill u need if u find Fly in your mageguild and gather all the arties without any fights and then kill your opponent with a bit lesser army, but with much higher stats without having fought anything in that game?
So when i play a game, i donīt have a problem with a log born hero, coz u could raise your movement with other stuff as well (stables, gloves, boots...) and u could balance that out a bit.
I also have no problem with red rush, coz i think blue has some advantages as well....
Same goes with hit&run. When u know it is allowed, then u have to change your gamestyle a bit and you can use it yourself as well.
Conflux and Necro are 2 very cool towns to play, but have both too much advantages over the other towns. It is very nice to play necro vs necro or Flux vs Necro, that is real fun. But u wont have a chance with other towns (when played by good online players though...).
Also "no level 5 spells in endfight" is a rule i normaly donīt agree with. If u know u will face a hero like Tazar, Mephala or Neela in endfight, u only have 2 chances to win. Double size of army or some good level 5 spells like implosion or summon elemental. Otherwise your chances are very very low to get the win here...
Thatīs why iīm fine with only 3 (4) rules:
1. No Fly or DD
2. No diplo
2. No Necro ro Flux (except both have..)
Sometimes it is nice and funnny to play "diplo war", means both players start with a diplo hero and gather troops from all over the map. Best map for such a game is the template "Extreme II", which has hugh amount of level 7 units as guards in treasure area....
Could happen u face your opponent in endfight in week 5 or 6 and he has 500 Behemots and 8000 diamond golems...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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g123
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 15, 2005 12:03 PM |
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Quote:
This game is ment to be a tactical game where you have to think about what you do, where you probably have to doubt about the result of a fight, so you wonīt get into it, but try later perhaps. The player who has more knowledge about the strength of his army will make more "close" fights than the other one and will gather good arties or ressources earlier and take advantage out of that fact. That is what i call skill.
In my opinion, this is not a proper definition of skillfulness. In all strategy games, there are two main factors that determine how good a player is i.e. the knowledge and the inspiration. The reason that I make this statement is that I cannot understand why we have to maintain rules that protect just people that know how to handle a fight with AI (crypts, utopia ...) with minimal losses. Ok anyone could learn something like this either by experience or by reading many excellent posts on that topic. With strict rules the only interesting part remaining in the game is the final battle. Consider a situation that two players have the same knowledge about the game. Then where in the game is the factor "mind" involved?
The above were just my thoughts and I am afraid do not suggest any answer to the rules problem. I think that the solution "NO RULES" is rather naive also and a more sophisticated answer needed.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 15, 2005 05:54 PM |
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Let's talk about Online Games - Part 2
First of all, I want to thank you all for your immediate response and interest in this thread.
Tigris: thx for the thread on saving every turn. I'll check that out this week and hope we both come to a conclusion of how it works (guessing the actual link is easy)! Though I must agree that saving every turn ruins the fun of the game.
LordLazy: thx for the advice on joining the tournament. This might be a first solution to the problems that bother me.
Lines that drop / Computers that restart:
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I won't repeat myself arguing about lines that drop. I must disagree though with LordLazy that p-c-s have a tendency to restart. If that's the case in one's pc, then it is more likely than not that more critical problems will appear in the near future. :-( Last time my pc behaved like that was about 2 years ago and I soon found out that I was infected with a virus (I think it was blaster or shasser), so check that out... If you want my advice, try to keep your system up-to-date with Windows Update and perhaps use of "anti-virus" programs. Moreover consult your computer manufacturer through web to find out if this is a bug of your hardware. Another problem, that might cause Heroes shutdown is memory but I don't think that this can occur very often; especially on today's super-wow high-tech computers (Just in case you think I am a computer freak I must inform you that I own a PII@350MHz with 384MB RAM and use WinXP OS to play HeroesIII but as you can see I "believe" in RAM which is cheap and makes it harder for common (simple but borring :-() programming errors to appear {usually due to dynamic memory allocations}). Well, apart from LordLazy, noone has commented on lines that drop, so I believe I am a lonely rider on this one, which of course might be well justified by my minor net-experience. :-(
Banned Spells:
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Perhaps what I've written above concerning mage guilds was a bit vague. I do NOT propose as a solution banning all 4-5 level spells. All I wanted to ask, is if there is a way that one can direct the random map generator NOT to allow fly and dd spells (and perhaps other spells as well if all encountering players agree on that) to appear on mage guilds and on scrolls on the map (This direction can be given on maps someone creates with Map Editor). I am referring only to these 2 spells just because I agree (at least for the time being) with angelito's description of rules. This is why I 've written earlier that I've not made up my mind yet as to whether it is correct to follow all (or some) of these rules.
No Rules:
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On the other hand, people like c0ldshadow are totally happy playing with no rules against other people, as I used to a few weeks ago, and I must admit that I envy those guys now. :-( I agree with g123 that playing with no rules seems to be naive and that a more sophisticated solution is required. I also believe that if we are to pose some rules, then we have to minimize them as much as we can so that they can fulfill the expectations of a broader audience. Is it accidental that in TOH Rules page is not referred even a single extra rule just like c0ldshadow proposes? I believe not.
Purpose of the game/Skill/Luck:
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I believe that the true question stems from the purpose of the game. As angelito excellently points out it is a tactical game and of course experienced players should be rewarded by breaking huge armies first (g123: I don't follow your thoughts and your opposition to angelito's definition of "skill". If you have time please explain a bit more.). That's why I certainly agree to "no diplomacy" rule. Moreover, in order to have balanced maps we should of course try to minimize the effects of randomness on generators. All I can say here from my minor experience is that I eagerly await Angelito's generator which sounds good, while during that time I will experiment with Panic and Balance generators and I certainly won't use again Jebus Cross on Medium maps which seems to be totally unfair. There are interesting specifications on generators and I believe these can help a lot for a fair game. Perhaps some discussion can be enriched by the thread named "Rank the Random Templates" which can be found on the following address:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=6&TID=14314
No necro/conflux rule:
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I have a feeling that this rule is correct, although I am not as skilled as most of you and cannot justify it completely (especially regarding the necros). I humbly accept that since it seems there are plenty things I must learn, though I do believe that under certain circumstances, certain heroes and good game-playing these towns can be beaten.
Other rules:
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I am glad that noone so far has an opposition on hill forts, double building and so on. But what is going on with these rules on actual games (and for those who know, on tournaments)?
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c0ldshadow
Known Hero
ig chr0meice91
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posted March 15, 2005 10:11 PM |
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angelito & dimis you both bring up some very respectable points...i definatley see what you guys are saying..i guess i could live playing with some rules w/ ppl who i trust woln't break them, its just that some rules certain rules get a little ridiculous and silly sometimes...
great thread,hope posts keep rolling in..peace,--c0ldshadow
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted March 16, 2005 11:55 AM |
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I will only respond to one thing there as I agree with the other points.
The computer restart problems: I have long time experience with computers, and computer restarting is VERY usual, especially with the AMD xp 1600-2000+ processors, and does not neccesarily mean you have serious problems with it. Windows XP is an operating system, which on the stability part is useless compared to systems on other computers (read: MacOS, AmigaOS). Drops will have to be something you will need to live with, and does not the player is watching saves. If you think so, there is LOADS of cheaters online, me included Make to know your opponent is my advice there
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g123
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 16, 2005 12:44 PM |
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Dimis, all I mean is that I do not believe that a game with so many restrictions remains strategic. The reason is quit simple. Consider 2 equal experienced players that both have high ability to beat with minimal losses AI (crypts, utopias, coservatories, bad monsters in general). You agree that this part of the game has NO strategy? You can see a lot of posts on this topic in strategy session. Every player can learn to do this correctly. So the only strategic part is the final battle. But HOMM3 is not like Street Fighter and I can not be fascinated by such a game. Where is the strategy involved? I distinct strategy from knowledge (experience). These are both necessary for a player to be good but they are different. The only reason that I can not accept the term strategy is that a strategic game assumes available choices. Where are the choices in beating a conservatory for example? If you have the knowledge you'll beat it if you can (with blind eyes) and you won't if you cannot.
I think that I elaborated enough on this. That was a answer on your personal question but I did not provide a solution to the post topic. Well I am afraid that I will not because I'm not Solomon. But I think that luck can make the game more strategic. It seems insane isn't it? Consider a game without rules about hill fortress, building, dd, fly. Consider also one player to have two same castles and a hill, while the other has dd and fly. Who has the advantage? I don't bother about it but I think that this game is more strategic and certainly more interesting. Both players can win the game and that depends on their STRATEGIES. You see that there are available choices for both players. May be this example is not good enough (just in order that you want to beat it but i think I make my point clear). What are the probabilities to have an advantage? Let Colmogorov to decide. As you may realize I can't give fair rules and since I can't, I'm closer to No rules, although they have their own big problems. I just don't agree with the particular rules not with any. May be since you announced yourself as a programmer you could make a better random map generator. But please don't make HOMM3 like Street Fighters.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 16, 2005 01:31 PM |
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Quote:
Every player can learn to do this correctly. So the only strategic part is the final battle.
Not really sure i can agree with that..
Do you think chess is a strategy game?
Everyone can learn how to move his "army" on the chess board, but i donīt think chess is only strategical in final battle...
Your hero wonīt get the same skills all the time...you wonīt have the same hero all the time....a crypt fight day one with Crack or Tazar works different than with Sanya or Geon.....if u will find 2 or 3 log born heroes day 1 in tavern, u are able to chain much better....if the second hero with army in tavern day 1 is a necro hero, u could get moral problems using his army with your main....sometimes u will find a level 6 dwelling (cavaliers e.g.) and have to decide building angels or cavaliers in your town first week....all fights are much different when your main doesnīt get slow ()
But exactly your arguments are the reason why i donīt play fixed maps but only randoms.....coz playing a map 50 or more times and learn it by heart bores me to death....but tastes are different..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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g123
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 16, 2005 02:18 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Not really sure i can agree with that..
Do you think chess is a strategy game?
Everyone can learn how to move his "army" on the chess board, but i donīt think chess is only strategical in final battle...
Angelitto,
I'll try to make it clearer using your paradigm, because your example is not correct. I can't understand the term "final battle" on chess.
Chess:learn how to move the pieces, castling, en passant, checkmate etc
Homm3: learn how to move heroes on the map and creatures in the battle and what are the causes of the spells, immunities, artifacts etc
Chess: learn tactical combinations, sacrifices, opening theory, endgame theory, pawn structure etc
Homm3: building strategy, battle strategy with AI, etc
Chess: inspiration in the middle game (I could elaborate on this but I don't mean to compare the two games)
Homm3:exploration of the map, building strategies on the first or any other castles, battle with human, etc
I agree with you that still remains space for strategy (the examples you gave are convincing), but I am sure that you agree that it's minor. I simply exaggerated to make my position clear and not to insult the game or any of you. I really wish to see a set of rules that will make the game better, but the existing ones are not satisfiable.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted March 16, 2005 03:37 PM |
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Quote:
You agree that this part of the game has NO strategy?
............
So the only strategic part is the final battle. Where is the strategy involved?
No i don't agree at all. In fact i think what you said here is pure non-sense.Indead,when having some advantages on your side(i.e. spirit of opression)
you can control and plan each move the AI is going to make(same as in chess, when you plan your moves to influence/determine your opponent' ones ). Nevertheless this requires lots of skill from the player and IMHO is the beauty of the game.Building up a hero, taking in consideartion your oponent's main(speciality,skills/spells you expect him to get) should be planned early in the game.Also as Angelito said, creating a unique gameplan acording to each map is pure strategy.Even though top players(and some of the noobs too ) are by now so acustomed with the random templates that they can predict some things(where are the secondary castles, the exit to the next area etc) this doesn't mean that all the moves are made automaticly like one would do in a fixed map after he played it 200 times in hotseat.Each map is different, giving you different posibilities to develop your castle and main.
IMHO a good player can predict general guidelines for the endfight days before this actually takes place.Here is an exemple i saw in one of Mocara's posts: his oponent had inferno and developed a native main(low chances of receiving water magic), he had castle. In end fight he proceeded in mass slowing/blinding his oponent' stacks KNOWING he won't have dispel or cure.After he blinded 3 or 4 stacks his oponent casted dead ripple affecting every unit on the battlefield(thus unblinding his troops in a brilliant move).Do you think he got dead ripple from a mage guild? No he hired Septiema KNOWING that he won't get water magic so no mass cure, developed her to advanced scholar, and then learned his main, PREDICTING that his oponent will blind some of his power stacks.What is that if not pure strategy?
Do you think the end fight is all that matters in this game? I think you're wrong.One knows if he'll win or lose before entering the battle itself.He knows what advantages he has and what he can expect of his oponent.
IMHO it's much easier to learn how to fight decent in endfight than to preapre that fight decently.
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Where are the choices in beating a conservatory for example? If you have the knowledge you'll beat it if you can (with blind eyes) and you won't if you cannot.
Let's say you see/"check" a minimum cons on jebus day 1.That's the exact moment when you start planning on taking it with the angel that you WILL recruit from your freshly build portal of glory day 5
In order to take the cons you need the dwelling build on time, in order to do that you need money, in order to have money you need to break a couple of cripts, but those cripts are far away from eachother so in order to break 4-5 cripts by day 5, you need to plan your chaining.Posibillities are multiple and so are the challanges required by sugh a goal.And this is only a small link in the chain.Imagine that you needed that extra angel so you can attack that external dwelling day 6 so you can have 3 angels week 1 and 7 day 8.
I agree the actual fight with 50 griffins can't bring u lots of surprises, but building your way to do it acording to plan is where the true strategy is required. You can as well have that fight week 2 or 3 and by that time it won't matter cos you already lost the game.
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But I think that luck can make the game more strategic.
What strategy is required to cast vision on some troops and then have throng lvl 7 month 2? It's fun, but only the conditions are equal for both players.I mean how would you feel if you struggled so much to gain the sufficient skills/army/spells (yeah i'm really talking about exp slow here ) to defeat that horde efreet sultans guarding your exit when you start noticing your oponent's stats begin exploding one day after another?
How would you feel when he flies past those sultans with 25 titans and 120 diamond golems week 4 when he started with castle? And to make it even better, Adela's first spell is a +3000 implsion from a scroll.
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You see that there are available choices for both players.
Yes, but choices that are not his to make.If i could chose what would be the next scroll i would like to pick from the map, wouldn't this be something strategic? Like changing protection from fire with dimension door.I pick up a scroll with dimension door and you'll pick the one with protection, I have a hut with diplomacy and you can have the one with navigation, I'll use the cartographer, you can aswell dig for the grail and put it in a Tower.I agree the choices exist.
Then in the end i hear you complaining that i got lucky and that is why i won although you played at your best?
just my two cent there man
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g123
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 16, 2005 05:09 PM |
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No i don't agree at all. In fact i think what you said here is pure non-sense.
Not a very polite beginning. Did I insult anyone?
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In end fight he proceeded in mass slowing/blinding... What is that if not pure strategy?
It's an excellent strategy. But what if some new rule comes up that doesn't permit blind or death ripple? You could build even richer examples if there was more freedom.
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Do you think the end fight is all that matters in this game? ....One knows if he'll win or lose before entering the battle itself.He knows what advantages he has and what he can expect of his oponent.
Of course he knows. There is no surprise. So do u agree with me or not?
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You can as well have that fight week 2 or 3 and by that time it won't matter cos you already lost the game.
Forgive me but that is not a strategy
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What strategy is required to cast vision on some troops and then have throng lvl 7 month 2?... And to make it even better, Adela's first spell is a +3000 implsion from a scroll.
I think that's not an expected situation. May be we need decent random map generators, so that the average case will not be the one that you just described.
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If i could chose what would be the next scroll i would like to pick from the map, wouldn't this be something strategic? ... is why i won although you played at your best?
IMHO that's the best part of your reply. That's completely strategic. I hope that in HOMM5 will be such a consideration to let players choose their spells and that is strategy. But i think that's an altar topic. However your example is still extreme. This should not be an expected situation from a decent random generator and surely if such things happen, probabilities will make the things even.
At last your opinion is that the rules are holy and we can't do something to make the things better? Excuse me but the easy and lazy solution is to make strict rules (equally lazy to no rules though).
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted March 17, 2005 07:08 AM |
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No i don't agree at all. In fact i think what you said here is pure non-sense.
Not a very polite beginning. Did I insult anyone?
Indead the fact that we don't agree on this particular matter shouldn't be a reason to go flame.I guess i got a bit too far with this one.I appologise to you for that reply there,it was nothing personal.
Still...
..the fact is that the rules were made by players because the game has it's flaws, recognized by all.Some of them were fixed by patches(gremlin rush for exemple) but for some rules had to be issued to make the game more BALANCED and FUN.
Rules are by no means holly in online gaming, they are agreed by players before the game starts.So if u want to play with no rules then go ahead and do it!
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Excuse me but the easy and lazy solution is to make strict rules (equally lazy to no rules though).
So what is your suggestion for a less lazy solution?
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g123
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 17, 2005 01:24 PM |
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Tigris,
I can understand that you don't have something personal with me and that you love the game as much I do (may be more cause you re more experienced). I totally agree with you that the rules came by an effort of some decent people to elliminate the luck from the game, so as to get it more strategic. What I declared is the obvious, that the rules have created other problems while solved some other. You pointed that it is fun to use diplomacy but then it is unfair to the opponent. I agree. There are two solution paths. The first is to reject some skills and spells that have fun but can lead to an unfair situation and the second to use other tools to equalize the advantage. The second is certainly more difficult and may be impossible but worths a try.
A first obvious solution is a better random map generator to be made so as extreme unfair situations to be avoided. Not really solves the problem but could make things better.
I have some other suggestions, although most of them have the problem (observed by dimis) that allow players to cheat, so I am afraid that we can only use them with people we trust and consequently not appropriate for online gaming. The following is not my idea but I borrow it from card games that although luck is involved by this way is quite eliminated.
Consider four players (1,2,3,4) that will play the same random map in two separate games 1 on 1. First game 1-3, second game 4-2. The teams are 1,2 and 3,4. So if player 1 finds a hill or a second castle nearby and beat easily player 3, that's what player 4 will do to his partner 2 in the second game. But we need some point system to estimate (if we suppose that both 1 and 4 win the game) the wins. A naive measure is the days, but may be more sophisticated measures can be created. In the same way you can make tournaments (if you don't like to play with partners) that all will play the same random map and then compare yours score with the players that were in yours position in the map. Of course the problem is that player 1 may give the map to his partner. May be it's just a good idea for players that know each other that won't cheat. Perhaps it is already used and i don't know it.
All the other things that I considered, I am afraid that concern the altar topic for HOMM5.
I hope that I gave an answer (although not well developped)
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 17, 2005 02:08 PM |
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Strategy/Tactics
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I am afraid I can not agree that attacking crypts, utopias, conservatories and bad monsters in general requires no strategy. There are two main factors that influence these battles. The first one of them, is the matter of time, cause you have to enter crypts, utopias, etc "as fast as you can". The second one has to do with minimizing army losses when in-fact you do enter crypts, utopias, etc. So Strategy is involved on many things during your turn. You have to have a determined hero all the time. You have to plan routes for about 1 week ahead (some times even more!) and of course the order on visiting these places. On the other hand, there do exist strategic aspects on the battles against AI. Take as an example entering crypts, where you usually sacrifice one or more units in order to fool computer's vampires or wraiths. This is certainly strategic and not tactical. There is also a term for a technique in chess (which I can not translate in one word in english :-() when you "drive a piece of your opponent in a square that helps you go on with your attack". This is what happens in crypt and this is certainly strategic! Since we introduced chess on our discussion, and you say that everybody can enter a crypt very fast (and I agree with you on that, but not on the rest of the cases), you can view that entrance as part of the opening (endgame) theory in your game. The fact that some moves on chess can be classified to opening theory doesn't really mean they lose their strategic background. Hope you agree on that last one... Consider for example a bishop on a2-g8 diagonal, which is typical for an opening like Giucco Piano (Italian Game) who "x-rays" the weak f7 point next to the opposing king. Isn't that a strategic aspect of the game? To my opinion ofcourse it is! It is totally irrelevant that the move Bc4 is classified to the Italian game. It is just an attempt (and to my opinion very good one) to classify various games in chess according to their "strategic background" which occurs during the opening moves.
On the other hand, there are certain aspects on battles that are tactical. For example you wait with your valuable pieces during a fight, you attack with just one dwarf/troglodyte etc. the opposing stack, so that this piece receives the horrible retaliation, and then you "mass-attack" that unit with the rest of your pieces. What I think is confusing on battles, is the fact that these are "battles"! And it is very difficult sometimes to distinguish strategic moves from tactical moves, since "tactics" is a term which is used on combinations (sacrifices, etc) on chess (which are mini-battles after all!).
Moreover, the timing of the battle certainly depends on your hero, stats, and magic expertise. It is much easier to enter a battle with a horde of behemoths when you have expert slow, berserk instead of entering a battle with expert slow and no berserk, blind, implosion, etc...
Combining the above with what angelito said I believe that the game remains strategic. Of course it is a slight variation of the orginial game, but on the other hand we try to make up some rules, so that the game is as balanced as possible. Total balance is sth unreal for us to expect. It would require symmetric maps and all humans get the same hero (impossible), same army, same riches on the ground, same opponents on various mines, same heroes in tavern (!), etc. Here is where luck pops-up and makes each particular game unique when you play a map for the first time. This reason along with the fact that "human-made" maps might be studied by my opponent (which I have not done, cause as I said, I am just a newbie!) is what makes me want to play on random maps. That's the reason I am trying to find out a good map generator. On the other hand, just as angelito points out, if you are a veteran, then you have studied "human-made" maps, and more or less, already know the procedures you must follow so that you apply a good strategy during the game. (I beleive that it is a strategical feature to chain your heroes, etc.)
So the question remains (although a bit more clear right now!)...
What rules and features on map-generators are "really" necessary so that we can enjoy Heroes as a strategic game and at the same time starting positions are not (tragically) unbalanced? Trying to find out an answer on that is not at all hopeless or pointless on my opinion. This might be well a good proposition of the heroescommunity to the team that is going to develop heroes5 so that we can enjoy a far better version of our beloved Heroes3 game!
Spells
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As far as the spells are concerned I am afraid I can't see a reason for banning spells other from fly or dimension door. Perhaps I 've got the wrong feeling about that, but it seems like we are talking for the prohibition of other spells as well, sth. which is totally contrary to my point of view.
Grail
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Thank god, someone mentioned that which had totally slipped my mind. All the games I 've played so far prohibit the use of grail, so it is sth. I am used to forget. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I really don't know what to think of, cause I do believe that games end far earlier than you can find the grail..
AMD Processors
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LordLazy, it seems that at least partially you do agree with my point of view after all, since you used the word "especially" when describing your problems. As far as the serious problems are concerned, you are right that in this case it is not at all obligatory. But this case (hardware conflicts with OS used) is not the case most frequently encountered in practice. If you believe that I insulted you in any way with what I 've said so far, please accept my public apologies. I didn't mean to. (After all you were the only person so far in the thread that was most polite towards me since you welcomed me in the forum! I know others meant that although they didn't specifically said that, but ... you were the one that actually took up some space to write that! :-) )
[Forget the last pair of brackets and parenthesis and go on reading ...]
And this one goes to all of you guys. I really appreciate your interest in this thread and your interest on fair games. I certainly have no intention to insult you. If anyone believes that I do, I publicly ask you to accept my apologies. Hope we all continue our discussion (as c0ldshadow suggested) "... in peace!".
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