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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 14, 2006 03:27 PM |
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Quote:
tank beats flyer, flyer beats shooter, shooter beats tank, and so on.
but in h3 often flyers tend to beat tanks too. as the whole wait&hit&run is based on it.
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 14, 2006 07:52 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 19:52, 14 Nov 2006.
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Yes, this is of course a very simplified rule. But have your 1.25 silver pegasi beat an ogre mage... hit-and run or not.
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 14, 2006 08:29 PM |
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Quote:
so it's finally settled - obsidian gargoyles cannot even beat zombies, so they are the most useless lvl 2 unit.
As I said at least once before, heroes are not about 1 vs 1 combats. And IMHO, if you think that zombies are more usefull than gargoyles and if you don't understand that flying fast 2 level creature can be very useful even with somewhat lower combat stats, you have A LOT to learn 
You can download the simulation here anyway:
http://heroes.dai-net.net/bitva.exe
Please note that this is still under development and it was not tested under Windows. I can upload also Macintosh version but I am afraid that I am the only Mac user here 
Implemented units specs:
no retaliation
death blow
cursing attack
Not implemented:
- any other units specs
- morale or luck bonuses
- any influence to units stats (by heroes, terrain etc.)
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 14, 2006 08:38 PM |
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Quote:
But this simulation doesn't show how it would work in "real" game. Gargs are faster, zombies can't get moral. So the gargs will always use the "wait...attack...fly away.....wait..attack.." tactic. And I really doubt the zombies will win ANY fight.
Because with your simulation, the sprites won't win any fight vs any unit I bet..
You are right, as usual But I assume this tactic would work only if faster units is more than 2 times faster than slower - if not, slower unit can usually run out of enemy radius (but against 1-hex flyer, in battle field with obstacles, I am not sure ). And of course, spliting the slower units into 7 stacks will make this tactic less succesfull.
By the way, I have not tested it, but I think that sprites will win against a lot of 1 level units even in simulation - due to their speed, no retaliation and high damage/hp ratio.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 14, 2006 11:05 PM |
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Edited by wog_edn at 09:13, 15 Nov 2006.
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With your simulator I saw that Naga Queen won 39,7% of all battles against Dread Knight... hmm, what have I always said?
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tenzor
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 15, 2006 01:09 AM |
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Quote:
When a unit takes a defensive stance its defense value increases by a certain percentage value (I can't remember whether it's 20% or 30%) not just by 2. You should implement this.
Does anybody know exact formula, please?
Quote:
This also points out another problem: The hero's defense value is added in a "real" combat.
Well, just imagine that hero's defense is 0 in this case. don't say this is not real
The simulation is only simple utility, may be sometimes helpful for some players, but doesn't give you the answers to all questions of HOMM, life, universe and everything
Quote:
In case of a speed tie the same unit would go first in each and every round when they had started hitting each other.
No problem, I will implement it.
Quote:
I second Angelito's opinion that the gargs would deploy the strike-and-return tactic which is a great advantage.
Such tests can't prove that a unit is "the most useless lvl 2 unit"; tank beats flyer, flyer beats shooter, shooter beats tank, and so on.
You said it. So you understand that implementing of hero's stats, abilities etc. is useless then
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted November 20, 2006 06:32 PM |
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Quote:
Does anybody know exact formula, please?
I think I remember reading somewhere that it is +unit level. So, +6 for queens.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 20, 2006 07:44 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 20:10, 10 Jan 2007.
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Ok..for all of u who are interested in that formula, I just made some tests.
The formula is quite easy:
(Defense skill of the unit + defense skill of the hero) / 5 = defense bonus when unit takes defense stand.
That's the reason why there is a difference sometimes between upgraded and non-upgraded units:
An Archangel (defense 30) will gain +6, while an angel (defense 20) will gain +4 bonus.
If the hero has defense 60 in that case, the Archangel will gain +18, while the angels will gain +16 defense bonus.
I also took armorer and offense into account, but they didn't influence.
I also tried to use the "wait button" first, and then took defense stand, but also no influence.
Edit: Typo (angels defense bonus = 16 instead of 14)) fixed.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted November 20, 2006 10:56 PM |
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...i was always wondering how that works.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 21, 2006 08:09 PM |
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Or you could read the manual. Page 43:
Quote:
Defend
If you want to skip a creature's action phase entirely, click the Defend button. The creature will be in defense mode for the remainder of the round and will gain a bonus of 20% to their defense rating.
I guess you round that value down. The "for the remainder of the round" is not quite clear to me, somehow I've always thought it was until the creature's next action?
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted November 21, 2006 08:18 PM |
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that's right, ecoris.
why is the castle discussion forum not as popular as the tower one? 
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted November 21, 2006 08:26 PM |
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Edited by russ at 20:27, 21 Nov 2006.
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Quote:
I guess you round that value down. The "for the remainder of the round" is not quite clear to me, somehow I've always thought it was until the creature's next action?
Nah, rounding it down does not make sense unless the absolute minumum is 1. Otherwise imps, etc would not get any defense bonus.
And yes, the defense bonus stays there until creature's next action. The manual is not 100% correct
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted November 22, 2006 12:27 PM |
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the best place to discuss defense in my opinion would be a fortress thread
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted November 22, 2006 01:02 PM |
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Edited by Ecoris at 13:03, 22 Nov 2006.
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Quote:
Nah, rounding it down does not make sense unless the absolute minumum is 1. Otherwise imps, etc would not get any defense bonus.
Good point. The bonus must certainly at least be 1. What bonus will a unit with a total defense rating of 6 get?
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted November 23, 2006 10:01 AM |
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the answer to your questin is that a unit with 6 def gets 1 def bonus.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted November 23, 2006 05:40 PM |
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Quote:
the answer to your questin is that a unit with 6 def gets 1 def bonus.
Was that a result of a test or a speculation?
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted November 23, 2006 05:59 PM |
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test, of course. the easiest way to prove it is by starting a game with a lvl 1 cleric and castle. the pikeman has 5 def and +1 on native terrain. this makes 6. you order your pikemen to defend and they gain 1 def bonus. easy as pie. (based on heroes3 complete)
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MrCash
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 19, 2008 03:40 AM |
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Ive played quite a bit with tower so I know quite a bit about it:
The Tower has one of the best early game battles. If you can find another wizard or alchemist in your tavern, (and provided you started with one), you can amass an army of over 100 master gremlins. 100 master gremlins should easily defeat most neutral creatures. Once you engage in battle against an enemy hero though, theyll die very fast, especially if left unprotected. In essesnce, Master Gremlins are potent ranged creatures in large groups, but are very fragile. Even a mediocre spellcaster can wipe out a horde of them.
Gargoyles have lousy stats as far as lvl2s go but they bring much neccesary speed until the level 5th genies. Employing obsidian gargoyles can win initiative for you...which is vital, considering the fact the tower tends to be a bit more magic oriented.
Stone golems should never be employed in your army. Iron golems on the other hand are excellent creatures...one of the towers best I believe. They are incredibly hardy without lacking heavily on the offensive. And they only take 25% damage from spells. They are still rather slow but 5 speed is generally acceptable.
Mages are another potent unit for the tower. Good strenght and no melee penalty...so theyre not all that helpless (Granted they lack on defense and should be given protection). They are also helpful in that they actually make your spellcasting cheaper. Arch mages are even more potent but still lack on the defense.
Genies are rather useless. Appaling stats for a level five and no special abilities to speak of. (We'l ignore the hatred vs efreet, considering the fact that efreets will always dominate a genie.)Master genies on the other hand can be a preety good supporting unit in that he casts free spells fopr you to anyone you want. Their high speed grants you high initiative...in other words, you can dump your gargoyles in the nearest utopia...
Nagas and naga queens fight the dreadknight for lvl 6 dominance. Nagas are practicall always blessed and deal good damge...thats constant. And no retaliation, which helps considering the fact that their defense is rather lacking. If you can deal with the incredibly expensive cost, nagas and naga queens make excellent units.
And then, finally, theres the giant. Dirt cheap dwelling compared to everything else. They cant beat most other lvl 7s save, perhaps, against hydras. Maybe. It depends. Titans are much better and even get a ranged attack. Titans and especially their dwellings, are incredibly expensive. Chances are, by the time you get a titan, youll have to deal with AA's and AD's which will easily wipe out the titan.
Overall, the tower is a lot like the mafia. If you can fork over the cash, itll pay you back (sometimes with interest). If the map is poor though, then the tower just wont deliver. You cant survive a game on the dirt cheap MG's alone.
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MmmNachos
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 24, 2008 04:02 PM |
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This is a nice summary from MrCash! I would add:
1) Arch Mages are a nice upgrade, but expensive due to the requirement of building the library first. It should not get in the way of upgrading you Naga dwelling or building your Giant dwelling. In general, both versions of the Mage are nice but die pretty easily. They can be a tough unit to use properly, and are not powerful enough to build your entire strategy around them (unlike Grand Elves).
2) Genies and Master Genies are actually fairly potent in attack but can't take the retalliation. Don't be afraid in a seige to wait and then fly them over walls to take out weaker stacks though. And yes, the cost of upgrading is so small, and the rewards so great, that I wouldn't ever buy a normal Genie unless I was desperate. Master Genies are nice too in that you only have to buy 2-4 per hero to get the spellcasting benefit! Come on prayer...
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zamfir
Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
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posted July 28, 2008 06:56 PM |
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Edited by zamfir at 18:57, 28 Jul 2008.
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A big problem with the Tower: the heroes.
The Alchemist doesn't make a good might hero.
The first thing we see is that as all Alchemists start with scholar.
A deeper view of the alchemists reveals us that they have the lowest chance of all might heroes to learn Tactics. Instead, they will almost always obtain the useless Learning.
The wizards are average magic heroes.
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5 Times TV
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This thread is pages long: 
