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Silverhawk5504
Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
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posted May 28, 2006 10:05 AM |
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Well, having started this thread before the game came out ... and testing out duel mode, I can safely say that I was wrong.
Necro's are an amazingly powerful faction which are incredibly hard to kill. The skeleton archers are too powerful and numerous. Especially when you've got buffs (battle frenzy, boneward, cold steel, archery)
Though the thread is called "Necromancy power deficiency", it should now potentially be changed to ...
"Necromancy godliness" !!!
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~Dima
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted May 28, 2006 01:23 PM |
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Edited by Gus at 13:24, 28 May 2006.
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you're not afraid of jumping to conclusion too quickly, are you ?
I mean, you started this thread when you didn't have the game, and now that you have had it for a couple of days, you say that Necros are hugely overpowered ?
I really, Really, REALLY think people should wait a bit to extensively play in MP (and more particularly in tournies) before drawing any conclusion about presupposed imbalances.
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Krytain
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 29, 2006 04:57 AM |
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Edited by Krytain at 05:47, 29 May 2006.
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I just got through with a hot seat with my brother. We played the Subterranian map on hard, we are both a fan of stratagy games, and have been playing homm2,3 and now 5. This was our first game playing togethering since we got it. I was necropolis (red) and he was Dungeon (blue). I managed to get all my mines and clear off my land before he did. Though all game i was having to sell resources for my coal to build anything. We got our level 7's about the same time, but he managed to get his upgraded before i did, but i got my others upgraded before he did. I went out into that middle lake and picked up all the wood and got the abandoned ships before he was even done clearing out his land. I then proceeded to kill green (Necropolis) and took both his cities, which were pretty leveled up. Through out the game i didnt lose hardly any units, if i did they got resurrected by my traits. My brother lost a couple of guys here and there. I took on green lossing about 2 archliches, and 15 specters. He went to kill yellow, but was too scared of the ai's army in the capital, so went and go reinforcements and went after me. I was a couple of turns away from reinforcements, but the outcome of the battle wouldnt have made a difference, it was a complete slaughter. The line up was:
Necropolis - Level 21 hero
18 Attack 11 Defense 16 Spellpower 13 Knowledge
1292 Skeleton Archers
316 Plague Zombies
133 Specters
79 Vampire Lords
29 Archliches
18 Wraiths
11 Specter Dragons
Had the +1 Damage Item
200 Damage Ressurect First Aid Tents (got to admit these helped alot early game to save losses)
Mass Slow (did nothing i could tell, he still had more initive than me)
Dungeon - Level 21 Hero
15 Attack 14 Defense 20 Spellpower 14 Knowledge
177 Assassins (did nothing)
199 Blood Furys
84 Minotaurs (not guards, unupgraded, did nothing)
64 Grim Raiders (bite and -defense killed me)
20 Hydras (did nothing, unupgraded)
16 Shadow Matriarchs
13 Black Dragons
Within the first "round" I killed 100 Blood furies, lost all my wraiths, dragons, and archliches. His black dragons, blood furies, and grim raiders could kill anything of mine in 1-2 hits. The battle was terribly humilating. I managed to kill the 100 blood furies taht first round, and put all my efforts on the black dragons, and managed to finish them off, but everhting else of his survived.
The reinforcements were 116 Skeleton Archers, 93 plague zombies, 41 specters, 23 vampire lords, 13 archliches, 10 wraiths. I also had 91 zombies, 34 ghosts, 18 vampires, 12 liches, 9 wights, 11 dragons that i was heading to town, but i didnt have enough money atm to upgrade. Maybe if we had a bigger map to allow me even more skeletons and the use of greater unit spawn, or a smaller map before level 6-7 it might have been different. Something weird i noticed though was he had 4 black dragon spawns a week, while I purchased my dragon graveyard for all the extra cost, and only had 4 dragons per week. :/ Our level 5,6,7 were all 4 growth a week
Ive done a little research and would like to try out a new strategy. Im going to try getting Vladimir with Blood Fury, cold Steel and chilling Bones. I will focas on skeleton archers, vampires, liches, and wraiths, and not bother much with the rest of the units, is this the basic strategy for necro?
btw, is it better to increase attack or defense, like at an arena? I always pick attack, but i dunno
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Kai
Hired Hero
H5 Kaspar avatar needed.
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posted May 29, 2006 05:09 AM |
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Edited by Kai at 05:09, 29 May 2006.
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Necro peaks at early-mid game, Dungeon has the most expensive creatures and dwellings.
If you attacked/harassed much earlier (before you even have level 7) perhaps you could've won... if it was a 1 on 1 map that is. Because Necro early game army is larger than Dungeon's, you could take it to their lands and took their mines with your wandering hero...
From your description it had multiple other computer players, so I guess you couldn't do all that resource denial... :|
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Krytain
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 29, 2006 05:11 AM |
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yeah, i wanted to be nice to him and go after the computer first
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Cr7pt0r
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 29, 2006 08:32 PM |
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What can I say, necro is god damm powerfull when your heroe have the right spells and abilities.
For instance , when you combine this three spells (with the right abilities and artifacts) you can possible consider yourself invecible:
1. Puppet Master (control your enemie's most powerfull creatures)
2. Raise Dead (endless army)
3. Mark of the Necromancer (endless mana)
You just need to know how to play it. There's no argue about it, necro is way to powerfull in the right hands. Guess what:
"I'm an Necromancer".
The deal here isnt unit vs unit... its Brain vs Brain !
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Gom_Jabbar
Promising
Famous Hero
Revealer of Truth
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posted May 29, 2006 09:17 PM |
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I played a bit with the necro and I must say it's probably the most chalanging towns of all. The army is almost useless against a human player unless you have the right abilities. The ones i found out to be the most efective for necro are: (archery, battle frenzy-->cold steel, vitality, protection-->chiling bones)--> for the skellies, soldier's luck-->for the incorporeal ability, and lord of the undead-->for the 5% to necromancy skill raise. Just try these and you'll see how hard will be to beat the necromancer.
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted May 30, 2006 05:41 PM |
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This is an example of how powerful necro can be. I also posted it in the screen shots section to prove that yes necro is the same ol H3 necro. You have to be patient and really know your stuff to play necro to its full potential
Quote:
When I was kidding around with how many skellies I could get in one month (some one was saying necro is weak) This was on Heroic at 4 weeks in also. Ended up with over 6k skellies by total accident.
Necro is not weak
Since you can not see the image too well due to its size, I have not had the time to go and reduce it at work yet. But it says Skellie archer hit Iron golem with good luck for 11259 damage. this was with only little over 3k.
But with 11259 damage, to a defense like a Iron Golem I reduced it by ratio you would still be able to kill broken arrowed, 30 +/- Titans depends on hero defense in the opening round.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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Necromancer
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 31, 2006 04:48 AM |
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Necro Domination
Hello to everyone & and let me join the discussion....
If you want it short..Necromancer is the best..if you want it long...here it goes...
N.1. Necromancer can build a really huge army in no time..tell me who can go around dealing 1-2k damage by week 4
N.2 Necromancer can't lose his army...when wandering around the map...there are really few critters that he can't crush in no time (and yes make more of his deadly archers) TIP: combine spells like phantom image + raise dead + mass slow
N.3.Necro units are the cheapest in the game (just don't buy zombies..please)
N.4 Necro has the best spell combination (Dark+Summon magic)
N.5 Necro is imune to mind spells (but is happy to cast them on others..frenzy is my favorite)
N.5 If skellies aren't not enough, then liches are there for extra pleasure
NN. So Zounds of archies+liches+vampires+raise dead+master of dark magics=UNSTOPPABLE... 
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Don't mess with the Necromancers, they are deadly serious
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Gom_Jabbar
Promising
Famous Hero
Revealer of Truth
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posted May 31, 2006 10:44 PM |
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Seems like the "power deficiency" is gone with the wind...
I just wonder how much will it be untill we will see threads like " Necropolis too powerfull?" or "Bring Necro's down".
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Shhejtan
Hired Hero
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posted June 01, 2006 03:20 PM |
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Take a looka at the campaigns, the first tow levels of necro are pure hell (unless you are an exceptional tactician) compared to heavens and inferno's. I'd bet if they gave you a necro town the campaigns would be a breeze.
Those skellies shouldn't've been archers, I kid you not.
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Silverhawk5504
Hired Hero
The Forsaken One
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posted June 01, 2006 07:50 PM |
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Necro campaign was a joke...last 2 missions were cake...even with no troops...if you chose Expert summoning magic...the game is over!!!
Conjure phoenix
Phantom forces
You're done!!!
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~Dima
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Necromancer
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 01, 2006 09:16 PM |
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Quote:
Necro campaign was a joke...last 2 missions were cake...even with no troops...if you chose Expert summoning magic...the game is over!!!
Conjure phoenix
Phantom forces
You're done!!!
Why phantom forces? Don't they just dissapear after getting hit by someone/spell....
I haven't tried it yet, but does raise dead work with conjure phoenix??
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Guldan
Adventuring Hero
Soon to be banned...........
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posted June 01, 2006 09:24 PM |
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The phantom forces get a chance of dodging the spell/attack, and phoenix can be ressurected or phantomed.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 02, 2006 12:44 AM |
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Quote:
The phantom forces get a chance of dodging the spell/attack, and phoenix can be ressurected or phantomed.
wrong, Phoenix is level 8, and therefore cannot be Phantom'ed.
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Shhejtan
Hired Hero
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posted June 02, 2006 12:25 PM |
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Has anybody noticed how hard the necromancer campaign would be with any other castle? How har it really is?
1) There are so many creeps you can't get skelletons from (I wonder why they chose the wizard as the main enemy?)
2) You effectively don't get a necromancer castle in levels 1,2,4 (and in level two the enemy starts with a sick advantage)
3) Moral issues with non-undead troops
4) you get most troops from pre-placed friendly undead stacks.
Think about it, could this campaign even be passable with anything besides the necro?
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Exiled
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 02, 2006 03:53 PM |
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Um.. hello everybody. I am a big fan of H3 and have played it a lot of years. And yesterday i had a friend of mine come over to my place to play hot seat. We started a Warlords map, and selected our colours at random, so we were in the same island or whatever it is. I were Necros, he was Inferno. It was a rape, my 20 poor mana was drained in the 1st round, because i had already spent 6 of it for revive. The 1st battle was 75 skeletons and 34 zombies vs 23 imps, 20 demons and 1 succubus. My hero was lvl 5, his lvl 3. He had the hellfire ability, i had Banshee howl. The battle was slow and merciless. He sacrificed his 26 ims (6 gated) and killed my skeletons .l The mega attack, defence, damage and initiative zombies had no chance agains the demons. My point it, that Necro is pretty weak early game vs any faction, up to weak 2 at last. We were playing hard diff and I didn't have any ore to build my liches and vamps, although i took the ore mine on day one. He had... Also attacking a ranged mine keepers with unupgraded skeletons without rise dead is pure suicide, those 4 hp skeletons die too fast. There is only 1 little abuse - pixies are bugged and do nothing agains UD, guess they are coded to use swarm or wait and they do nothing but waiting. But in short:
Skeletons suck... Skeleton Archers are a giga unit, especially with Battlefrenzy
Zombies SUCK big time, they are not even cheap to buy. Same goes for Plague zombies
Ghosts... their damage is good, but their initiative sux for a flier and their 8 hp makes them pretty vulnerable... the 50% miss chance is cool, but is very much dependent on luck - if it doesn't kick in agains the charging Paladins you can forget you had any ghosts. Specters upgrade is not very cheap, but adds 4 hp... you no longer loose all of your 3th level stack due to the 1st hit in battle.
Vamps&Vampire lords are not what they used to be. I had 70 vampire lords with 8 bonus attack from the hero, they hit 100 marksmen, that had 6 bonus defence from the enemy hero and only 4 revived (10 died before due to Inquisitors)
Lich&Archlich - the idea of a shooter being a big creature SUX. They are otherwise a very good unit, but once the enemy gets near to them (usually round 1, round 2 at most) they become pretty much useless. I can't just get the bonus of casting Suffering with my 80 Archliches...
Personally i thing they needed a 3th large creature for UD, because all other factions have 3 and they choose the lich, man i hate the creators
The 6th tier troops, whose name i can't ever spell properly are quite weak - no high hp, no high Initiative, average speed... only the damage is a little bit good, but compaired to the other 6th tier troops they are the weakest for me
The skinny dragons are a waste of resourse... better find another town and buy some 4-6 tier troops to fill the hole, despite the moral will be low. I mean come on... in H3 they sucked, but in H5 the are utterly useless, the only thing that comes in mind for them is to block the enemy shooters due to their highest speed in the Necropolis faction. They have crappy hp, tragic attack and defence and the gap between their damage and the damage of the Wraiths(did i spell it right ) is smaller then the gap between Liches and Wraiths. And their special ability is mmmmmmmmm.... crappy? I prefer the zombies -2 attack and defence, no matter how useless their initiative is
I still think that Nerco is weak, not the weakest but pretty weak. Any good strategies are welcomed.
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Guldan
Adventuring Hero
Soon to be banned...........
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posted June 02, 2006 03:57 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The phantom forces get a chance of dodging the spell/attack, and phoenix can be ressurected or phantomed.
wrong, Phoenix is level 8, and therefore cannot be Phantom'ed.
Are you sure?, i thought i did, i'll check it some day, to be for sure, cause im not sure any more and you sound so confident, i would go for the fact that you can't phantem em.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 02, 2006 05:23 PM |
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Quote:
Are you sure?, i thought i did, i'll check it some day, to be for sure, cause im not sure any more and you sound so confident, i would go for the fact that you can't phantem em.
Me sounding (and being) confident does not mean you should believe me 
I am almost positive i have tried phanotm'ing a Phoenix with my Expert Summoning Magic hero (how else could he be able to summon a Phoenix if he wasn't Expert ?), and it said the level was too high. Besides, other things in the game mechanisms (such as damage done by hero to creatures according to their tier) indicate that the Phoenix is treated a level 8 (which makes sense, since it's way above the level 7 ones). So, the theory + my own experience, yeah, i'm confident you can't. But better to test it to be sure, it can't hurt to cross-check
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 03, 2006 04:38 PM |
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I've played only a bit, abut I have to agree with some of the facts written here. Necromancy is no longer an unstoppable weapon (as it was in h3), bcuz the skellies have been severly weakened when it comes to att/def/dmg (it's still decent tho ). Wraiths deal the most damage of all level6 units, but their specials suck, so does their hp. Liches are very, very good, but again, there are 12973461 ways of stopping them - same for vamps and their rather mediocre offensive potential. Spectres are luck-dependant, zombs totally useless, and the spectral drags are insanely underpowered, even with highest growth rate(considering the building that improves their growth) they do the least damage (no more aging ability from h3.. why? >_<. Necropolis suffers heavily from losing dreadknights with their sturdiness and specials, weakened necromancy and even worse level 7 unit that in h3. (in wog it has been made decent with the etheral ability, at least. <_<
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