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| Thread: Heroes V Expansion Pack Suggestion! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 08, 2006 08:18 PM |
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As said, while it is possible to put out a "ground up creature editor" that allow you to change model graphic assets,(Impossible Creature has a great editor like so), it is also very very hard. (and for most part, don't see the need to allow all that freedom)
But they could still give use a Editor that allow use to change the color of texture/skin, give them effects (a Burning Paladin?), and of couse, change the stats and ablity for them.
A Town editor is a interesting idea too. More than just replacing a creatures, you could assign its level, growth, and cost.
However, I think all those should only exist in a Custom or Usermade map/game. So you cann't really import your creature or town into a "official" single player map or camapign. Multiplayer would be alright, if all player join to play that same map. This is to avoid possible unblance and cheating creatures. (Super Shadow Dragon at 100 growth rate costing 1 gold each?) As long as it is self-contain on the usermade map, it should be alright.
Actually, I don't see any problems in inporting self-made creatures into official maps, as long as they are not multiplayer maps. If you wanna give yourself 100 Shadow Dragons each week, go ahead, it's not gonna ruin anything for anybody except yourself - you're just going to make the game boring for yourself. I think gamers should be allowed as much freedom as possible and choose for themselves, how they want to use it - and a creature editor and town editor would give lots of fun, and should be really easy to make.
Also I think the idea of having the option to change the colour schemes and effects of creatures very exciting - however, I'm not sure it'll be possible to implement with the existing game, because most units probably are made up as a full package - there is probably one Paladin graphics file, and it's probably not specified as an editable parameter what color the different parts are.
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leoest
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 08, 2006 09:17 PM |
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comradex,thanks for enjoying the idea Alcibiades and actionjack;this editor would reqire a lot of work for ubi and nival,but not for us By the way, it really would be unfair if you are playing online multiplayer with your town that has a superstrong unit that costs almost nothing... (I got almost all the main ideas from the sims games and the new maxis game,spore,so if you want to look how i think the editor should be like,search for ''spore''on gamespot and watch spore gameplay movie 1.But I don't want the creatures to be SO weird,and there are still some features missing in THAT creature editor,like the way you want him move and special effects)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 08, 2006 09:59 PM |
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Of course, the features should not be implemented in multiplayer mode.
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Anyway, I don't think it would require too much work for Ubisoft. I don't know if you're familiar with how the data files for the creatures are constructed, but it's very HTML like. It looks something like this:
<CREATURE>Black Dragon</CREATURE>
<ATTACK>30</ATTACK>
<DEFENCE>30</DEFENCE>
<MIN_DAMAGE>45</MIN_DAMAGE>
<MAX_DAMAGE>70</MAX_DAMAGE>
<ABILITIES>Magical_Immunity</ABILITIES>
Etc.
I don't remember the exact details, but I'm sure you get the picture. The point is, that with files structured like this, it should be really easy to make a userfriendly interface where you just type in Attack Value, Defence Value, Damage rating, choose abilities from a list etc., and save your "new" creature, and the program sticks the values together in a file.
I don't know how town data are stored. It might or might not be possible to make changes. If the form is similar, it could be possible.
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ComradeX
Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
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posted June 08, 2006 10:38 PM |
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Well, yes the tool should not be alowed in multiplayer. I also thik that it should have a balancing system that will not allow you to make a super creature that costs nothing...
Anyway, the job isn't too hard for Nival. If they made a huge game like that, sharing the "secrets" of modding should not be too hard for them... If it is like Alcibiades says it is, it's even easier then making a map...
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The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 08, 2006 11:05 PM |
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Don't cite me on the specific details, I can't find the post on the Nival forum where someone descriped it, but it is very easy to MOD creature stats. It should be extremely easy for you to enter the Titan data file and set new HP at 210.
Anyway - there would be a way for Nival to put a control in the editor. They have some formula to calculate the powerrating of each creature. The power value of each creature on the different lies in some range, and they could say that, for instance, level 6 creatures should like in the range Power 1800 - Power 2600 (current power values are 1993, 2360, 2520, 2535, 2537 and 2588, with the very deffensive Treant being rated somewhat below the others, and the Wraith being (over?)rated as the strongest level 6 creature. If the program was able to calculate the power rating based on stats and properties, it should also be easy for the program to transfer this directly into weekly growth and cost. Thus, the Sylvan receive 5 Treants per week and all other cities have only 4 level 6 units per week, because the Treant is a less usefull - at least less offensively usefull - creature. Similarly, the price of the Treant is the lowest of the level 6 units (albeit not by much, I suspect the huge HP reserve plays in here).
All in all, it should be possible to have a control on these things so as things doesn't get way out of hand. I don't know how they calculate the Power ratings, and one might argue they are not always precise - but it's a start, and it's a very easy way to put a control on what is implemented.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 08, 2006 11:19 PM |
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Its the difference between having a "In-game creature creator", vs having a "Creature Editing Moding Tool".
The first (with a given forumal and blance) would allow you to make customize town and creature and pit them against another, on any map or setting. This would make it a lot differnt game.
The 2nd is more of a outside tool. You could make any creature or ablity, regardless of blance, and put them as netural or faction creatures for your customize map. (Attack of the Angelic Dragons! vs your Lv 1 Small creature titants!) As say, in this case, they should be self contain on that map. So yes, multiplay would be allow, with all player knowing what they are getting to.
So really depend on what Dev do... or if they even give use such tool...
Atleast that is what I think would be a fair way to do things, on paper...
Of couse, if it does become popular, might even see the Creature Packs, which would give you more ablities, more effects and art assets, more modeling options, and such, for you to play with. It will become a Stategy version of Neverwinter night type of thing.
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ComradeX
Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
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posted June 08, 2006 11:32 PM |
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Well, the modding tool will also be a "try and fix" enterprize, like all other experemental features. The power rating is some times wrong, but in general it can be trusted. Of cource it doesn't consider the usefulness of a creature in a certain situation, or the role it plays in a certain strategy, or even in it's own aligment's army...
But, still, the power rating can be used as a balancing tool IMO.
We should suggest this to Nival. Maybe they will listen...
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The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 08, 2006 11:41 PM |
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I'm currently doing some final statistics, to check how systematic this works. Basically, what we need is to have a control on the following three features:
* Power: A number to tell how powerfull the creature is.
* Cost.
* Growth.
Basically, the more powerfull the creature is, the higher cost it should have, and the lower growth. This transforms into the following properties:
* Powergrowth: Power x Growth.
* Costgrowth: Cost x Growth.
* Powercost: Power / Cost.
In order for this to work, Powergrowth for all cities should fall within a welldefined and hopefully not too wide range at each level. That would make it possible to set a limit for Powergrowth on each level to define the unit as "ballanced". Similarly, Costgrowth should fall around some welldefined region for each level, to avoid miss-ballancing. Finally, Power/Cost should have a well-defined maximum, to ensure that powerfull units are not too cheep. Of course, the opposite should also be taken into account, weather units are too expensive.
If all this turns into something usefull within the current limits of the game, I intend to write Nival and present them with the idea (if nobody object). I think there's a future in this, that could extend the longevity of the game tremendously.
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leoest
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 09, 2006 04:27 PM |
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i am going away for a week now,but you can use this thread for discussing the tool and suggesting new expansion features as i am away.I try to come back soon!
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ComradeX
Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
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posted June 10, 2006 12:07 AM |
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This idea is great, and it must be based on 3 principles of balance:
1)Power is to be in oposite relativity to growth, meaning that as it grows, growth of the creature deminishes.
2)Power is to be in direct relativity to cost, meaning that as it grows, the cost does so as well.
3)Growth is to be in oposite relativity to cost, meaning that as price raises growth deminishes (more powerfull creatures, that are more expansive, following rule 2, will have less growth).
If those are used there will be balance. That way, if you make a "super creature" (that will be above level 7) it will have lowest growth (1) and a very high cost (like special Dragons in HOMM III), not only in gold but also in the resource your town needs most (like Gems for Academy), and it won't be profitable for you to make such an unbalanced creature. Any way, this tool must not be alowed in multipalyer, as in some conditions you may sat, the map will be rich and you might get your "super creature" and screw up the whole game...
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The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 11, 2006 06:09 PM |
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Here is one possible way to do an expansion (in term of marketing).
Taken idea of how Guild Wars done their expansion, It would be a good idea to make such expansion Stand-alone (by that, mean you don't need the orignal game to play) However, you won't get the content of the orignal game. (this is under assumption that adding more data and codes to the CD/DVD that would make this do-able would not cost that much extra)
So inside such expansion, you would get
- 2-3 new Factions with new army
- New creatures (and possibly new one added to the exisiting factions
- 2-3 new Campign for the new Faction
- Lots other new stuff (maps, art, spell, etc etc)
Thus off the box, those who goet such expansion (with or without owning the original) would be able to play out all the new campign and maps for single player, as well as multiplay other with the expansion, but Not play any of the original stuff.
Of couse, such expansion pack would be cheaper as well (around $29.99?)
This make it more easily accessible to anyone. The fans will surely get it, the new comers might give it a try, and if like, would go back and by the original, and keep following the series. Other future expansion pack would follow this style as well.
(NOTE: a editor pack should be seperate and free)
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 11, 2006 07:16 PM |
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So could you couldn't play with the old factions, spells etc with just the expansion? This could easily make the game rather strange couldn't it? - and also cause reduced content compared to a normal game (HoMM6...) (although I guess that's the point).
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 11, 2006 08:43 PM |
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Quote:
So could you couldn't play with the old factions, spells etc with just the expansion? This could easily make the game rather strange couldn't it? - and also cause reduced content compared to a normal game (HoMM6...) (although I guess that's the point).
The idea would be:
less content(less developing cost) => cheaper retail price (since it is excluding the need to buy the orginal, and it would be at bargin price) => more people willing to give it a try => more people like the series => more people by future expansion and previous game.
Yes, you could still play as previous faction or against those with previous faction, just won't get the single player campaign or map for it. In campgin and new scripted maps, would most likly limited to play only as the new faction (maybe with control of the other). It will matter only if you start playing multiplayer or user made maps, in which case, you would still be allow to place as a previous faction. In math, might be something of (Original content + new stuff - some old centent = new expansion (or Hommv 5.5A)
Of couse, this is also be build around the hope that there is enough old content to attract people still willing to buy it, even if they get the expansion (and visa versa) Like instead of making a one way street, you make a two way street. Of couse, might also require Devs to add few updates and new stuff to the oginal to make it even more attracting.
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ComradeX
Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
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posted June 11, 2006 09:31 PM |
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I don't think that this is the right way, giving an extra without the original... I don't think that people that did not play the original will want to play an expansion pack, as that kind of screws up the whole plot, and most would like to have a plot, and paly it out in the original campaigns. Maps are not many, so decreasing their amount by taking away the original maps is not a good idea. If talking about costs, HOMM fans that by expansions mostly have the original game as they are HOMM fans! and for most, costs are not a reason good enough to miss a HOMM game... and don't worry about the costs being to high for Nival! they are rich, and they know that a well made expansion pack will wield huge profits in the near future...
So IMO there isn't much sense in such a move... maybe it's good for other markets, but not for HOMM...
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The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys
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miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted June 13, 2006 01:15 AM |
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I was thinking and I came up with a weird idea of a way to implment sacraficing units. Each race gets a building they can use to recycle foreign units.
Academy experiments on them
Sylvan uses them for target practice (also helpful for avenger)
Haven interrogates them, or uses them for slave labor
Inferno sacrafices them
Necropolis already converts them to undead
Dungeon literaly recycles them - magicly turned into base materials
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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ComradeX
Known Hero
Demands raising new Titan's HP
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posted June 13, 2006 06:26 PM |
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Nice idea Miru! that's good thinking! in previous games we had 1 altar for all on the adventure map, but having one in each town can save a lot of time... I also think that the building should be for sacraficing not only units, but also artifacts... Another thing that would make it better is to give several options for you what to do with the sacrificed units. All can turn them into resources or experience, but each town should have something special:
Academy - create additional Golems from the sacrificed creatures (number needed for 1 Golem drops with level, but is still high. 1 7th level creature will be used to make 1 Golem, 3 6th level ones, 5 5th level ones, 7 4th level ones, 11 3rd level ones, 15 2nd level ones, 30 1st level ones). Building will be called "Magic Factory".
Dungeoun - sacrificed creatures increase damage of distructive magic, the higher the level, the higher the bonus. 7th level creature gives 5% bonus, lower levels give much less... Building will be called "Pit of sacrifice" (yeah, kind of cliche, I know...).
Haven - Blessing magic gets bonus. Works like the dungeoun skill.
Building will be called "Essense Transformer".
Inferno - Gating skill gets bonus, as the souls of the sacrificed can also bring creatures from the other plane... 17th level creature increases the gating by 1%. Building will be called "Soul Enslaver".
Necropolis - Cursing magic gets bonus. Works like Haven's and Dungeoun's skill. Building will be called "Cursed Temple".
Sylvan - Avenger skill gets bonus (units are used for as target practice for the hero  ). Works like the Inferno skill.
Building will be called "Prisoner Range".
Think about it...
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The frozen land of red Titans wishes you luck in your journeys
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted June 15, 2006 03:03 AM |
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Quote:
The creature editor is a brilliant idea It would be very complicated,if you want a real, complete new creature it would need very much modeling with all the animations and such things.But maybe you just have to choose between different parts of the body and put them together?And then paint them with the hundreds of textures avaliable?The same for heroes,choose a horse or other ridable creature,then armour,face,weapons,skills and abilities...And when you edit buildings,it would be like The Sims,build the building ready with the tools and parts avaliable,then,if you want,edit a terrain,make more buildings,create construction lines and costs,add creatures,and you have a whole new town!(and if youREALLYwant to use a part that isn't in the editor,you can model it yourself,if you want)And the video editor also is a good,but complicated idea,that could be made a bit easier when tou could film in-game action(also an idea fromThe Sims 2).
Not that unique, its already in the legedary Starcraft, and in WarCraft 3. This game's graphics have so much in common with WC3, not only should you be able to put WC graphics into HoMM (I mean with out special programs), but I wouldn't be that supprised if (with a little tweaking) you could use the WC3 map editor to make HoMM maps.
BTW, blizzard (the maker of SC, WC and Diablo), makes the best map editors. Ubi should hire them, or at least get permission to remake thier map editors for HoMM. The map editor is more than half of what made SC the legendary best game ever*.
* SC - Starcraft is such a good game, even though it's 8 yrs old, it's still selling in local stores (at least in california), and I have friends who are still addicted to it.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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Crashnburn
Hired Hero
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posted June 15, 2006 03:59 AM |
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Quote:
Oops, my bad! I wonder if I really did here Sandro somewhere else.
You were correct, Gnoll Mage. He is mentioned during the Necro campaign as the mentor of that campaign's hero. Crag Hak is also mentioned in the Haven campaign.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 16, 2006 08:55 PM |
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Thanks Crashnburn.
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leoest
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 18, 2006 07:39 PM |
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Edited by leoest at 19:41, 18 Jun 2006.
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hi i'm back! you have got some nice ideas here,and i recommend everyone to read alcibiades thread about the expansions,factions,and magic schools!It is just fantastic!
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