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| Thread: Adventure Spells |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2006 04:53 PM |
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I would imagine the level gap of 1,10,15,20 is due to the fact that levels are easy to gain early on...
As for instant travel, it does seem to suck a lot.
Here's the thing though. I noticed an AI using it and he was travelling a lot farther than I was able to...
Anyone else noticed this?
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It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 20, 2006 05:01 PM |
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Instant Travel is great for jumping over obstacles, or when there are two "plateaus" of different heights.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 20, 2006 05:11 PM |
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I just noticed that someone mentioned they didn't recieve a certain spell at a certain level. This happened to me as well once.
A character of mine never recieve Town Portal. No great loss, but it was still a little strange...
Does anyone know why this happens?
I have a suspicion certain maps have restrictions on which spells can appear in the Mage guilds, much like what was done in various H3 maps...
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It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted June 20, 2006 05:22 PM |
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Mapmakers usually ban certain spells, especially in single scenarios.
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perman
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 21, 2006 03:30 AM |
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Edited by perman at 03:33, 21 Jun 2006.
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Quote:
1. Summon Creature is probably the only useful spell.
2. Instant Travel is absolutely useless, the distance you can travel is TOO short!
3. Town Portal is nearly useless, just ask yourself how many times you wish to return to the nearEST town.
4. Vessel of Shalasa is another almost useless spell --- it does not create boat, but you must find an empty boat nearby.
Regarding Town Portal being nearly useless. If you have towns both over and underground, you can travel to the nearest one even if it isn't on the same level. This was kind of helpful in the Demon Campaign level where you had to capture that town which had a boatmaker (and yeah, I know there probably aren't anything called boatmakers in existence).
I had a demon town underneath, and found it necessary to capture the towns above. And as the passage to underground was inconventiently placed, it was sometimes a lifesaver when one of those numerous heroes approached my town and I could just go near from above.
However, I experimented abit with 2 towns which were nearly right on top of each other, but with some difference in X and Y-dimensions (assuming height is Z). It seemed that I couldn't just be closer in X and Y coordinates to the building in the other height, so that Z factured in the calculation of distance to a town.
Any thoughts on this? Would hope that an Sqrt(X^2 + Y^2 + Z^2) isn't how they calculate distance as this would be impossible when playing.
I hope you're familiar with X, Y, Z and pythogoras so that you understand what the hell I'm talking about =)
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 09:13 AM |
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Instant travel and town portal got nerfed seriously. No more jump over the whole with a chain of instant travels or choosing destination town for town travel. Bad bad I dont like it. 
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 11:18 AM |
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perman, I noticed the same thing. At first, I expected the distance to just ignore Z, and be just sqrt(X^2+Y^2), but it seems that Z is taken into account as well.
Note that there's a game parameter named DepthBetweenFloors, set to 10. I guess that's the Z value taken for this calculation.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 12:51 PM |
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Quote:
Instant Travel is great for jumping over obstacles, or when there are two "plateaus" of different heights.
I have no doubt that someone can list particular circumstances for the usefulness of particular spells.
But ask yourself, how close these so-called advanture spells relate to your day-to-day strategic game-playing? How often do you use them in your day-to-day strategic game-playing? How important are these spells for your day-to-day strategic game-playing?
I'm pretty sure that you can survive without problem without Town Portal, Instant Travel, or Vessel Of Shalasa. And you'll find almost not difference among maps that ban or not ban these spells. Then you'll understand why I say they're almost useless. The only useful advanture spell is Summon Creature, while others contribute very little to your overall game-play strategy.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 21, 2006 01:49 PM |
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I use Instant Travel and Town Portal a lot in the map i play the most, Neighbours. It allows me to have one main hero who can control 2 or 3 Castles at once, allowing me to obliterate the opponent.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 01:58 PM |
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Edited by sfidanza at 17:26, 21 Jun 2006.
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Fuzzier, that is so not true.
I think you're mistaking "not overpowered" with "useless". In H3, Dimension Door and Town Portal used to be game-defining, as when a player got one of these, he was quite sure of winning the game.
Getting these spells was random, and they were too powerful.
In H5, the randomness has been removed (it shows in every magic guild), and the power reduced.
I agree that the power of these spells can be discussed. Should we be able to choose the town portal destination? How shoud Instant Travel work? I would prefer, for example, if Instant Travel would allow to travel faster, but not move over obstacles. Or just replenish the movements points or something.
Now, you may prefer to have really powerful spells. But these are far from useless.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 21, 2006 02:18 PM |
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They are not useless, but as you say, Town Portal was GAME DEFINING, and I think there is a very important point there.
It was overpowered, in the sense that the AI was too stupid to choose Earth Magic except by coincedence, meening that you had a huge advantage once you got Town Portal. However, much of that has been removed in H5 by making it Level dependant and not requiring any particular skills.
Furthermore, there are a lot of things in the game that are impossible without the 'old' Town Portal. I know, that the existing maps are all quite small and straight-forward, but once the Map Editor comes out, there's going to be some very large and extremely complex maps with epic storylines and so on. And that kind of maps, you simply cannot play without the Town Portal spell.
Therefore, I feel a strong need for the old Town Portal spell to come back. Let it be less random, let it only come in late game, that's fine. Even let the map creater - or the player! - disable it, if he wants to. But give us the opportunity!
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 04:40 PM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 16:46, 21 Jun 2006.
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Quote:
I use Instant Travel and Town Portal a lot in the map i play the most, Neighbours. It allows me to have one main hero who can control 2 or 3 Castles at once, allowing me to obliterate the opponent.
Again, a particular map for particular spells. My point is either you don't need these nerfed spells to survive.
Quote:
I think you're mistaking "not overpowered" with "useless". In H3, Dimension Door and Town Portal used to be game-defining, as when a player got one of these, he was quite sure of winning the game.
In H5, the randomness has been removed (it shows in every magic guild), and the power reduced.
I never take 'not overpowered' as 'useless'. I mean their usefulness is doubtful, as they have little to do to affect overall gameplay strategy. I agree that they may be useful in certain maps, but generally it depends on map makers, can cause UNFAIRNESS --- given the map is not symmetrical and certain player has better advantage to practice the spells, so these spells eventually become game-defining.
Make the spells more powerful can make the game more funny by introducing more strategies: economy and technology(spells). For example, rush for technology by battling more and leveling fast to get good adventure spells, but at the cost of losing more troops.
In H3, it was game-defining. But as you say in H5, every hero has the opportunity to learn it, and that makes things fair (human vs human, of course).
I agree with alcibiades. The game is a strategy game, and let the spells have the opportunity to make sense, and ultimately let the map makers decide which spell shuold work, and how they work.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 21, 2006 05:32 PM |
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Edited by Gus at 18:31, 21 Jun 2006.
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Quote:
Quote:
I use Instant Travel and Town Portal a lot in the map i play the most, Neighbours. It allows me to have one main hero who can control 2 or 3 Castles at once, allowing me to obliterate the opponent.
Again, a particular map for particular spells. My point is either you don't need these nerfed spells to survive.
no no no, don't twist what i say so that it fits your point, please =)
You said the spell was useless: i've given you an example that i do use it, and even provided the name of the map. I could probably give you other examples, but the point is: i don't play other maps enough to give them. And i think you would be hard-pressed to say that i chose that very map for my casual play JUST BECAUSE Instant Travel works there... The thing is: i play mainly one map, and it's because i think it's well designed for the kind of play i like. It happens that in this map, i can make good use (not overpowered use) of the spells you deemed useless. This is a proof they are not. Now, unless YOU can tell me, and prove, that the map i named is, by chance, the only one where those spells are not useless, then you should not tell me my example is situational.
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If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 05:33 PM |
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I agree that the changes to Dimension Door and Town Portal are, overall, for the better.
Large multiplayer games used to hinge on getting these spells, especially Town Portal.
In H5 these spells are no longer the be-all-and-end-all of long games...
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It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 07:18 PM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 19:24, 21 Jun 2006.
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Quote:
Now, unless YOU can tell me, and prove, that the map i named is, by chance, the only one where those spells are not useless, then you should not tell me my example is situational.
I never use Town Portal or Instant Travel or Vessel Of Shalasa, and I survive well --- They don't give a damn effect on my overall gameplay strategy.
As every player has the opportunity to learn those spells, no matter how over-powered (as you fear) or nerfed (as I'm afraid) they're, the situation is still fair, at least for some degrees.
But certian maps are exploitable, especially for these nerfed spells. Chances are some towns are positioned at good places to better practice this nerfed version of Town Portal, or some areas are more likely to utilize this nerfed version of Instant Travel, and these spells can still be game-defining (human vs human). The line between legal use and exploit is deem.
As map size increases, Town Portal becomes less and less useful (alcibiades has already pointed this out). Instant Travel requires delicate map design to save a day, especially on very large maps. Vessel Of Shalasa is just a joke.
We should have the opportunity to use full-power Town Portal or Instant Travel or Vessel Of Shalasa, and let map maker decide which spells are allowed, and how powerful those spells should be.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 21, 2006 07:23 PM |
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erm, the fact that you hardly use them and survive is supposed to show what exactly? That they're underpowered? That's not how logical arguments work =)
Vessel is a joke? That's a weird remark indeed. There has been a "Summon Boat" spell in every Heroes, except that this one doesn't take the room of another more useful spell in the Guild. I can't see how it's a joke, really.
As for the "situational" usefulness of the spells, well, that's moot as well... They ARE situational spells. They allow you to cross obstacles or to move to the nearest castle. If there's no obstacle and one castle on the map, of course they won't be useful. But that's a pretty rare situation, isn't it?
As for the argument of big maps, well, you should not level only one hero then, should you?
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 08:52 PM |
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I completely agree with Gus here.
I think the fact that you can "survive without them" is a good point, actually: it shows that there is not one winning strategy anymore. You have to adapt your strategy to the situation: in some cases, Town Portal will be very useful, in other it won't and you'll have to find new ways. That's what the devs wanted: avoid the uber strategy that you can use every time, with every faction.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 21, 2006 09:07 PM |
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I guess we just have to agree ... well, that we don't agree.
Vessel Of Shalassa is a joke, because unlike old Summon Boat, you cannot use it if there's no boat nearby. Of course, there might be this odd chance of you having a boat lying around somewhere close by, and it might save you a days movement point to summon it to your current location - BUT that's hardly something that's gonna make the big difference. The power of good ol' Summon Boat was that with Expert Water Magic, you needn't have any boat at all. Too powerfull, you might say, and yes, it made a difference - but hey, so does all the other spells, that's the point of the spell! And that's not to mention the fact, that in the new game, you can only land and enter boats on these special shorelines - which meens that if there's a boat nearby, it'll probably be right beside you, or otherwise, there'll be no boat at all, making the spell fail.
Town Portal is not useless - I use it a lot - but again, it's not REALLY gonna save the day for you. Yes, often I save a day of riding or so, sometimes even two, and on occasion it has allowed me to go back to city just before it was attacked - which is nice, because that'll save me the twenty-odd shooters, the towers would have killed otherwise - but it's not really going to make a difference.
The point with Town Portal was not multiplayer maps or small scenarios with 2 or 3 or 4 towns like those in this game. The point with Town Portal was those huge EPIC scenarious with like 20 or 30 or 40 towns on the map, and the story line laid down carefully by the map maker. I don't know whether you played those maps ever in Heroes 3 - those were the best part of the game bar nothing. Often, it would be a journey, from one end to the other, and the only way you could win the map would be by going back and getting reinforcements every now and then. This kind of maps, which will hopefully arise once the Map Editor is out - thanx to the devoted map maker fans! - will not be possible without the "real" Town Portal. And that, for me, means that the game will only survive for a few months, before I feel I have expired it's possibilities. It was the same thing with Heroes 4, that endless running back and forth, waiting for troops to arrive ... A total killer for gameplay.
Dimension Door is something slightly different. Dimension Door is "dangerous" because it let's you travel accross obstacles into unrecognized lands. It let's you go by Border Guards, accross mountains and so on, which might be very devastating to the ideas made by the map developer. Dimension Door is also much less critical to gameplay, and could be excluded from the game - however, the current Instant Travel is somewhat ridiculous, because it's like Dimension Door, but you can't really use it to something sensible (likew chasing after an enemy hero), only for all the "bad" things like jumping accross a border guard. Better then to either have the usefull version, or to change it to speed up movement (haste on the adventure map) for instance.
My point is, we have a lot of different games we like to play. Some people crave for the Random Map Generator, while others like me never played those random maps, but loved to play the huge epic maps. The former people will have no need for Town Portal, because it skews gameplay severely, while the latter will need it, because that's the only way you can play such maps. Therefore: Make it optional.
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Gus
Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
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posted June 21, 2006 09:57 PM |
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The problem you present can be solved by teleporters. What's your point exactly? I really mean that, i simply don't understand what's the big deal since the mapmaker will be able to provide you means of going back. In the meanwhile, there are no longer a couple of overpowered adventure spells.
As for Vessel, have you tried it? Is it more than theory that you have to have a boat nearby? I don't remember having to have a boat near me for it to work, but this might be a false impression. Have you tested it for sure?
____________
If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
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OOPMan
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 21, 2006 10:29 PM |
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Alci, the old Town Portal and Dimension Door spells were hopelessly unbalanced.
Large maps proved completely unplayable without them.
I imagine that in H5 XL maps will need to be played a little differently, possibly by developing multiple heroes to meet the needs of such a large map.
In H3 this wasn't necessary due to the fact that Town Portal and Dimension Door were available and worked so horribly well. However, it also meant that players who didn't recieve either spell were ultimately screwed in the long run, as their caerful prepped ultra-hero lost steam in later months.
The Summon Creatures spell is a fine addition, as it takes up much of the slack that Town Portal used to be used for. However, it is a little expensive of for non-caster Heroes to make use of, even with the enhanced mana regen rates that seem to exist in H5...
I like the new TP and DD. They're not broken and place more of the game-load on strategic thought, as opposed to Mage Guild pumping...
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It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...
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