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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted August 25, 2006 10:30 PM |
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You've made a realy nice skill Crashnburn. Still I have to agree with SBlister, I too like Bloodlust better. Still, of you would take out the preemptive turns for the own creatures, it would make a great secondary skill. Forcing the enemy to skip tactics and placing his troops random, is very ennerving for you're enemy. It would make an awesome skill for attack.
As for the possibility of making the Hobgoblins riding the wolves I have to agree with Crashnburn, it does not seem logical if a Hobgoblin on a wolf would be stronger then an Orc Berserker or Berserker Veteran. On top of that, I recall that we've agreed that we did not allow (Hob)Goblins to ride wolves, because they are basicly the slaves of the Orcs.
As far as the creature-abilities go, I would like to make some suggestions. First I think it is rather strange that Goblins can only pass Haven and Sylvan moats. Either make them able to pass all moats or none. Secondly, I think that one damage extra for every 50 Marauders is rather weak, if it were up to me I'd make it +1 attack for every 30 Marauders. Thirdly, I think War Charge needs a new name, now it is tied to the Shaman Elders. Lastly, I think it is time we started about thinking what spells the Shamans and the Shaman Elders should have.
I've also worked on some in-game descriptions;
Goblins
The cowardly Goblins are the Orcs most basic minions. They are adept in climbing walls (and crossing moats) unnoticed. Not particularly tough, Goblins are always present in large numbers.
Hobgoblins
Magicly mutated, the Hobgoblins are stronger then normal Goblins and are given cleavers. Hobgoblins are able to overwhelm their enemies by piling on to them, thus stopping them in their track.
Berserkers
Berserkers are the core of the Orcish armies. They are the Orcs first and last lines of defence. Armed with vicious sabres, Berserkers are known and feared by the other races. They are capable on generating a berserkerrage on command, making them a force to be reconed with.
Berserker Veteran
More experienced than Berserkers, the Berserker Veterans are able to wield two weapons. This makes it impossible to retaliate against them. Their experience also gives them greater mastery over their rage.
Wolf Marauders
Riding their enormous wolves, the Marauders make up the Orcish cavalry. Being trained from infancy, the wolves and their riders act as one large pack and find more strenght with every comrade.
Wolf Ravagers
Being accepted in the Ravager ranks is the greatest honour for every Orcish soldier. Ravager are tireless fighters and will never shun an oponent. Ravager are able to taunt their oponents in attacking them, thus leading them away from the other troops.
Shamans
Chosen at birth, Shamans are the few Orcs that are capable of magic. During their long years of training, bit by bit they are granted power by Dimorgh. Shamans channel their magic through their weapons and unleash upon their enemies.
Shaman Elders
Only the wisest and most gifted can become a Shaman Elder. Masters of their arts, the Shaman Elders can commune with their ancestors and grant their comrades ancestral blessings.
Wyverns
The bastard offspring of the Dragons, the Wyverns resemble winged serpents. Not quite as powerfull as their ancestors, the Wyverns are still formidable oponents. Having poisonglands in both maw and tail, Wyvrens tend to criple their adversaries before killing them.
Quartzhide Wyverns
As Wyverns age, their hides undergo many changes. Caused by the quartzstones they swallow, the wyverns develops a crystalcarapace. Their protective scales make the Quartshides extremly dificult to kill.
Trolls
The lumbering Trolls have been around since the begining of time. Defeated and enslaved by the Orcs, they are employed as living seigemachines. Hurling massive boulders, the Trolls are able of squashing entire platoons and battering down castle walls.
Battle Trolls
Trained during long years, the Battle Trolls are the most capable of all the Trolls. Clad in armour and being less dependant, Battle Trolls are more formidable then their regular cousins. Battle Trolls recover form their wounds during battle, making them live longer to fight for the Orcs.
Behemoths
Behemoths are powerful brutish creatures fighting alongside orcs in their countless battles. Their strength is such that even the most armoured of soldiers stand little chance against their frenzied strikes.
Dire Behemoth
Worshipped by orcs as holy creatures, dire behemoths are living juggernaughts who truly inspire fear and terror in the hearts of their foes. No armour can stand up to these blood-hungry instruments of destruction, and only the strongest of warriors can cut through their spiked plating with their weapons.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 26, 2006 01:22 PM |
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Quote:
First I think it is rather strange that Goblins can only pass Haven and Sylvan moats. Either make them able to pass all moats or none.
Then I'd go with none. How on Earth could goblins swim through lava or avoid ghostly entities? It's good enough that they can climb walls.
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Secondly, I think that one damage extra for every 50 Marauders is rather weak, if it were up to me I'd make it +1 attack for every 30 Marauders.
Fair enough. I also think that would be better.
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Lastly, I think it is time we started about thinking what spells the Shamans and the Shaman Elders should have.
There has to be at least one offensive spell and two curses. Perhaps even more.
I like your in-game descriptions, they fit in nicely. It however remains to be seen what goblins can do about moats, but we can always change their description a little.
About forcing enemies to skip the tactics phase, that's exactly the sort of painful enemy-frustrating abilities that I like. I think that would be a great ability for Bloodlust.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted August 26, 2006 08:02 PM |
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What spells do you think the shamans and the shaman elders should have?
Weakness/Suffering/Lightning Strike/Circle of Winter/Slow are some i have in mind. And on that note, how many spells should they have? I just realized that i have never used firewall in my life...
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 26, 2006 08:47 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 20:48, 26 Aug 2006.
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I think that they should have righteous might, firewall, slow, suffering
The righteous might and slow are pretty obvious choices in my mind.
Suffering could be used to make those weaker troops last longer.
Since so many casters already have fireball I thought that firewall would be suitable for damage spell since orcs worship the dragon of fire.
They would still need a direct damage spell IMO.
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted August 26, 2006 09:27 PM |
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Would Fist of Wrath make sense? Or is ignoring magic resistance on the wrong track?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted August 26, 2006 10:21 PM |
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Since we're talking about the spells for the Shamans and Shaman Elders, I'll contribute my ideas.
Even though Righteous Might would make much sense, I think we shouln't give it to the Shamans because the Warlord already gets it for free via Blessed Rage(Light magic ability). Also seeing that every caster has 4 spells or less, we should not give the Shamans more than 4 spells.
I would agree that Fireball is overused, I fear we cannot get around it as it is the only direct damage fire spell we can use, since Armageddon isn't realy an option. Fire Wall is realy nice, but it can't be cast directly on a stack (believe me , I've tried), so it can't be used as a drect damage spell
My spell line-up would be this:
Shaman : Fire Wall + Fire Trap
Shaman Elder: Fireball + Weakness + Fire Wall + Fire Trap(Places 6 mines)
The Shaman should be on the level of Basic Magic, The Shaman Elder should be on the level of Advanced Magic.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted August 26, 2006 10:32 PM |
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I agree with War-Overlord. Blessed Might and the Bloodlust racial ability makes Righteous Might not a suitable choice. I like the fireball, fire trap, fire wall combination. Weakness as the final spell... I don't know. I would rather Slow, seeing how the Stronghold fixes on striking first and all their abilities are geared towards inflicting more damage in combat.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 26, 2006 11:12 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 23:16, 26 Aug 2006.
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Quote:
Even though Righteous Might would make much sense, I think we shouln't give it to the Shamans because the Warlord already gets it for free via Blessed Rage(Light magic ability). I agree
Fire Wall is realy nice, but it can't be cast directly on a stack (believe me , I've tried), so it can't be used as a drect damage spell I know that too
My spell line-up would be this:
Shaman : Fire Wall + Fire Trap
Shaman Elder: Fireball + Weakness + Fire Wall + Fire Trap(Places 6 mines)the amount of mines depends on summoning mastery. For six mines fire trap must be cast at advanced mastery, but I think that leaving it out and adding some other spell since they already have firewall
The Shaman should be on the level of Basic Magic, The Shaman Elder should be on the level of Advanced Magic.I believe mastery of creature spells are tuned one by one
This is what I propose
Shaman:Firewall(advanced), weakness(basic), mana 12
Elder Shaman:Firewall(expert), weakness(advanced), fireball(basic), deflect missile(advanced), mana 16
weakness slow
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 27, 2006 11:30 AM |
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Since I haven't cast Fire Trap a lot (and when I did it was quite useless), does it damage your own creatures when they step on the mines or just the enemies'?
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 27, 2006 06:59 PM |
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 27, 2006 10:26 PM |
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted August 28, 2006 02:10 AM |
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I guess you all heard about the Dwarven faction making an appearance in the Expansion... We need to get this Stronghold on the road soon and send it to Nival/Ubisoft before they decide to put only one new faction in it...
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Crashnburn
Hired Hero
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posted August 28, 2006 05:18 AM |
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Quote:
You've made a realy nice skill Crashnburn. Still I have to agree with SBlister, I too like Bloodlust better. Still, of you would take out the preemptive turns for the own creatures, it would make a great secondary skill. Forcing the enemy to skip tactics and placing his troops random, is very ennerving for you're enemy. It would make an awesome skill for attack.
Thank You. I thought the same thing after SBlister mentioned seeing it used in some form as an additional ability. Do you guys want to use Ambush as an additional ability for the Warlord as part of the Blood Lust pool?
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Crashnburn
Hired Hero
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posted August 28, 2006 05:23 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
First I think it is rather strange that Goblins can only pass Haven and Sylvan moats. Either make them able to pass all moats or none.
Then I'd go with none. How on Earth could goblins swim through lava or avoid ghostly entities? It's good enough that they can climb walls.
I agree with this decision. Goblins would be too powerful (yes, even as a lvl 1 creature) if they could climb walls as well as avoid "moats". Climbing walls is enough.
This actually brings up a question in my mind. What is the design/architecture of the Stronghold and it's buildings? What kind of "moat" would they have? Who is manning the towers? As SBlister pointed out, if you guys (we?) want to submit this to Nival in time for the expansion we have to really get the ball rolling.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted August 28, 2006 03:21 PM |
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Quote:
Do you guys want to use Ambush as an additional ability for the Warlord as part of the Blood Lust pool?
I do.
Anyway, I think we only need to finish the stats and our Stronghold would be up and running. Bear in mind that Ubisoft are professionals, they won't repeat the same mistake as 3DO with heroes IV (two expansions in less than a year; no wonder they went bankrupt). We have enough time to bring this baby to perfection. I think it would be best if we leave Nival to deal with the architecture, but I thought that the moat could be like the one in heroes III - spiked barricades. Or a pit with spikes inside it. I'm not sure.
In the meantime, I'll do the credits. To avoid "who was better" issues, I'll put us in alphabetical order by our nicknames. If anyone wants his real name to be mentioned, just tell me.
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Crashnburn
Hired Hero
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posted August 28, 2006 04:42 PM |
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Baklava
I had a quick idea for the campaign storyline. I was reading in another thread about the expansion, about the Dwarves when I came across this post...
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The "barbarian" faction of the game is still there, but it is told that there are not enough orcs, goblins, cyclopses to form a town. You may encounter loads of stronghold faction troops in Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.
And they said that there are not enough orcs... at this time of timeline
Who knows perhaps in Homm6 they will be enough to form a faction ?
which led me to think what if the Orc/Barbarian/Warlord campaign is the fact that there isn't enough Orcs and the prominent Warlord realizes that they need more troops to fill out their ranks, because all orcs want is to be strong, right? In Dark Messiah Demo the orc who tosses the goblin over the edge says something along the lines, "Orcs only! Orcs strong!" And say this Warlord realizes that physical strength isn't enough as there are too few orcs to be an imposing force. So what if the Warlord's advisor, a powerful shaman, figures out how the orcs were created. Correct me if I'm wrong because I haven't gone back to look over the timeline again to make sure this is 100% correct but the Silver Cities (Academy) created the orcs to be their warriors/grunts/shock troops by combining Demon blood with human hosts. So what if the shaman had figured out what the wizards had done to create the orcs and he knows how to reproduce it. In the first mission you could have the Orcs raid a Academy town for info on the procedure. The second mission they could go against an Inferno town to gather demon blood. The third they can fight against a Haven town to gather human subjects to be infused with demon blood to become orcs. The fourth they could be a hold out against Haven forces that are trying to get there people back. Hold out till the shaman converts the human slaves into orcs (have the shaman tell the Warlord that it's going to take sometime to get the procedure correct). The fifth mission could be the orcs have now raised their new troops and they are marching on the Silver Cities to lay waste to their former masters. I'll leave the details to you, but what do you think?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted August 28, 2006 07:39 PM |
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Have we agreed yet on spells ? It seems we all agree on Fireball and Fire Wall. So we need to agree on two more spells. My vote would go to Fire Trap (to complete the three fire spells) and any <= level 3 curse, I don't realy mind which on it is.
Secondly, if we are going to make Ambush a part of the Bloodlust pool, we'll need to ditch one of the Previous abilities. Personaly I'd go for Raiding, Ambush and Ancestral Spirits, with Furious Overlord/Warcry (SBlister were still talking about that one). We also need to decide on a new name for the "former Warcharge", which has now moved to the Shaman Elders and had a little tweaking. BTW, can somebody explain the new workings of this skill ?
As for the moat of the Stronghold, I suggest the kind of moat the the Ancient Romans used to protect their camps. This is basicly a 1/1.5 meter deep, V-shaped trench, filled with sharpend wooden poles which pointed away from the wall. The trench itself was situated directly at the foot of the artifical hill on which the wall stood. We could do this wihtout the hill for the wall, but I think this rather suits the Orcs. It's quite simple and still deadly.
Sorry to spoil your party Chrashnburn, but we already had a little campaign storyline going. It is still very nice, but I think that since the Shamans can mutate Goblins with a potion made of their own blood, it rather indicates that they are aware of how they were created.
One last request, could anyone volunteer to create the in-game description for the Behemoth and Dire Behemoth. I've tried but I can't find the right words for this. Please use the forum messenger for this, so I can later add it to my descriptions withou spoiling the surprise for the others. Being worked on by Baklava and me.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 28, 2006 08:19 PM |
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for curse I would say slow
When they already have firewall there is no use for fire trap IMHO
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted August 29, 2006 01:52 AM |
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Instead of War Cry, how bout War Drums... Shamans Elders being the spiritual leaders of the Orcs summon activates the ability and we hear war drums banging and the unit that's enchanted does a kind of rant. War Drums basically gives the unit double attack like that of the minotaur guard and increased initiave but does not work for shooters only melee.
I agree with War-Overlord's new line up of skills for the Warlord. I have a suggestion for the moat. They arent' spikes but the remains of dead soldiers on a totem of sorts with skulls and tribal stuff hanging from it. It damages anybody that touches it and has a chance of causing fear. Ie. the unit that hits the moat might run and head for the edge of the map. The more units in a stack the higher the chance of dodging this ability. And to round it out... SBlister stands for Sinister Blister.
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Crashnburn
Hired Hero
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posted August 29, 2006 03:50 AM |
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Quote:
I have a suggestion for the moat. They arent' spikes but the remains of dead soldiers on a totem of sorts with skulls and tribal stuff hanging from it. It damages anybody that touches it and has a chance of causing fear. Ie. the unit that hits the moat might run and head for the edge of the map. The more units in a stack the higher the chance of dodging this ability.
That's pretty good. I was thinking that if their terrain was going to be a wasteland/badlands type terrain that they could have pools or a moat of acid and any unit that enters receives damage and has vulnerability cast upon them to represent the acid eating through their armor. But I think I like the idea of the orcs Stronghold being such a fearsome and imposing site that armies actually panic and run away. I do feel the Stronghold has to have something pretty unique and the sharpen wooden poles is pretty much what Haven has, correct? Just minus the trench that War-overlord mentioned.
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