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| Thread: Ultimate skills - worth getting? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ambidext
Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
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posted February 01, 2010 04:32 AM |
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Used to think Unstoppable Charge was useless. Editted a map for fun to use it... I could kill 12 Archdevils with 4 peasons with that skill =x
The requirements actually support the useage of the Ultimate Skill. But that's just for Knight
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted February 01, 2010 09:27 AM |
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IN answer to original question: no
1. in every faction's case, for 25 skill/perk points there is always a better build.
2. like juventus said, the above does not even take into account the fact that the so-called "special" comes too late anyway.
3. worst of all, if the "special" is semi-useful, in a greeat majority of the time you need to mentor to get it because one level-up typically stuffs it all up.
ok the wizard one may be semi-useful for casting different lvl 5 spells against a variety of neutral monsters but you'd have to level up normally away from the ultimate path & then mentor most of your normal skills to get ultimate...huge waste of gold...& by that stage you should be powerful enough to only need focus on two main schools...even then if defence or leadership comes up, I'd grab it!
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 01, 2010 10:41 AM |
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Uh uh, even if you lvl up normally and mentor your way to absolute the cost is prohibitive. And if you go for it from the start your creeping sucks. So even if the absolute was good..
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted February 01, 2010 11:06 AM |
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Quote:
Editted a map for fun to use it... I could kill 12 Archdevils with 4 peasons with that skill =x
Question: Did you kill them all in one blow and what level was your hero?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 01, 2010 11:51 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:52, 01 Feb 2010.
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Well, consider that around lvl 20 hero kills 1 archdevil in melee. Make that triple with unstoppable charge, the trick is to prevent them from killing more than 1 stack per turn.
There's an easier way. Have a 2 peasant stack in the corner, use retaliation strike and resurrect 1 peasant each time the devil attacks - that or cast regeneration and wait. Last stand will do the trick.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted February 01, 2010 12:08 PM |
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Yes, even with the cut down they did, Ultimates are just to difficult to get. Everything has to go near perfect. Even then there is always a few levels where you are handicaping yourself.
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Message received.
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sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
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posted February 01, 2010 12:41 PM |
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Does the Unstoppable Charge triple-damage modifier work on Klaus's retaliation special?
Only ultimate I realistically go for is Howl of Terror. I tend to get those skills anyway. Plus my human and elf friends usually have empathy.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2010 02:25 PM |
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ultimate rage seem pretty nice. except you need to take triple catapult, but leadership and attack seem logical choices for a barbarian
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magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
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posted February 01, 2010 02:43 PM |
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Quote:
Well, consider that around lvl 20 hero kills 1 archdevil in melee. Make that triple with unstoppable charge, the trick is to prevent them from killing more than 1 stack per turn.
Exactly how I was thinking, therefore I don't see how it is possible to kill 12 in one blow, he will kill 3 devils in one blow, but normally a peasant stack is death when attacked by 12 devils or more, unless you have indeed last stand. But you will still need multiple blows.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted February 01, 2010 03:12 PM |
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I think there are two factions, for who aiming ultimate is a real option. Ranger and inferno. Both may get ultimate relatively low level, both have native magic in it. Both ultimate is incredibly strong, but I think inferno rules.
Another good part for inferno is that ultimate is compatible with wm skill (flaming arrows and attack+knowledge boosted heroes), so if map offers enough xp for lvl 29-30, its worth trying.
If you build up your skilling carefully, just need a little luck to achieve ultimates. (Altough I have paid incredibel amounts to mentor snows)
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted February 01, 2010 04:53 PM |
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I found Ultimates worthwhile in the campaigns (Necromancer and Wizard in TotE especially) but single maps don't last long enough for the investment in suppar skills and mentoring (getting just the right skills offered the first time is highly unlikely) to pay off. If you have enough time for that, you would've won by playing normally anyway.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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ambidext
Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
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posted February 01, 2010 06:48 PM |
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Uh huh. It was Klaus.
6 archdevils killed per blow. with Last Stand, 2 peasants = 2 retals from Klaus.
This Ultimate makes Klaus really Haven's strongest hero end-game.
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Arcax
Promising
Famous Hero
Its quite hot inside...
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posted February 01, 2010 07:07 PM |
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Just asking : Retaliation works with double attacks ?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 01, 2010 07:12 PM |
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unstoppable charge :
triple the damage from retaliation strike.
if at level 20 you kill one level 7 creature in one blow (a bit more with retaliation strike, since I think it considers you are 3 levels higher, right?) that means if you fight magma dragons, you will deal 560 additionnal damage per blow. it may not seem that much, but you use no mana for it.
It triggers only when a specific stack gets attacked, so logically, the least stacks you have, the more efficient it becomes.
the perfect setup would be battle griffins + preparation + retaliation strike. the enemies would have the choice between sending all his forces to attack the griffins and suffer heavy damage, or not attack them by fear of the retaliation and let them slaughter his whole army.
unfortunately you can't have both retaliation strike and preparation
Nature luck
Creature attacks are always lucky.
You already have expert luck and elven luck. If we consider you have artifacts, let's say you have 40% chance to deal +125% damage, that is to say, you inflict +50% damage in average. with nature luck, you have +60% chance to inflict +125% damage, that is to say +75% damage in average. The power of this skill is obviously proportionnal to the strength of your army, unlike unstoppable charge.
Arcane omniscience
you learn all the spells and can cast them at the expert level without the secondary effects granted by perks such as "master of"
notice that this perk requires no magic school, which means you can get all the spells at the best level without mastering any magic school, and it lets you the choice to take other skills instead (that being said, it's probably not a good idea for creeping)
this perk also requires enlightment + sorcery, which will boost your magic skills a lot.
it seems, that less your hero is experienced in magic schools, more this perk becomes interesting (except for low level dark and light magic spells, since you won't get the mass versions)
it would probably be an awesome perk for a might orientated hero, which infortunately, the wizard isn't, most of the time.
Supernatural luck
Attacks against your creature are always unlucky.
that means, if the enemy has luck 0, he will inflicts -50% damage, 100% of the time. that means -50% damage.
that may seem less good than nature luck (+75% damage)
but -50% damage = x1/2 and +75% damage = x 1.75
1.75 x 1/2 < 1 and we are considering the enemy hero has no luck points.
it is unclear if this perk has an effect on enemy spells, but probably no.
the power of this perk seems proportionnal to the strength of the enemy army.
Terror howl
Banshee howl decreases the moral of the enemy army by 6 additionnal points.
one drawback of this perk is it is an activated ability, so you need to wait a bit before casting it, which might be bad against a sylvan hero for example. moreover, you can't have swiftmind.
with this perk, if an enemy has morale 1, you will decrease it to -5 (should be -6, but there is the -5 +5 cap) you lose even more if your hero if deirdre or if you have artifacts to decrease moral, so it's better used against a hero with a very high morale.
with +1 morale, your stacks will gain + 0.5 atb points every 10 turns, so that 0.05 atb points per turn in average.
for an unit of initiative 10, it is a bit like having 10 / 0.95 = 10.5 initiative.
of course, having numerous and fast stacks increases the chance for good morale to trigger.
with -5 morale, enemies has 50% chance to lose 0.5 atb points, so 0.25 in average
with an unit of initiative 10 it is like it has 10 / 1.25 = 8 initiative
(I hope my calculations are right)
prerequisites for this perk doesn't look very synergetic, but I might be wrong.
Urgash call
Gated stacks appear immediately
once again, the prerequisite for this perk doesn't seem very synergetic, you don't need critical gating or gate master for example.
Apart from the bonus, gating stacks still lose 0.25 atb points, and I guess gated stacks will have to wait before acting.
I guess it would be mostly useful against offensive enemies, where losing time to gate can be a hard decision. you still lose time, but this time, since gated stack appear immediately, I guess they could act as meat shield to withstand the enemy charge. also, gated stacks will get to act one turn earlier. the power of this perk seem proportionnal to the offence of the enemy army.
Wrath of the elements
Double the damage from elemental chains.
With expert focalisation + the special building, elemental chain deal +40% damage. it triggers when the 2 elements are opposite, so 25% of the time in average (except you can plan it)
which means +10% damage in average.
it triggers for spells and creatures, and is independant from luck.
expert luck and warrior luck is required. which means you have +30% chance to deal double damage. I said elemental chains deal +10% damage in average. 130% x 110% = 143% damage
with elemental wrath it is 130% x 120% = 156% damage
this perk will be useful for both might and magic orientated heroes.
note that if both luck and elemental chains trigger you will inflicts 2 x 1.8 = 3.6 times the damage. whereas with nature luck, you will inflict 2.25 times the damage.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 01, 2010 07:15 PM |
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Afraid not, only mark of the damned can hit an opponent multiple times.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted February 02, 2010 02:16 PM |
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Thought I'd add that retal strike doesn't trigger against a dwarven rune (battle rage I think)...but I bet Arcax knew that
& several peasants against arch devils - ah, regen on last stand peasants...oooookkkkkkk riiiight, then you'd probably have marksmen for easier killing which you wouldn't need retal strike for...the haven ultimate skill set would seem to ultimately support creeping with several peasants!...argh too late I just realised this is a necro-ed thread
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted February 03, 2010 06:47 PM |
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Quote:
Thought I'd add that retal strike doesn't trigger against a dwarven rune
I can add that it does work on motd as stated  I was the victim.
Quote:
argh too late I just realised this is a necro-ed threa
This calls for my stock response. Blame Elvin!
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Arcax
Promising
Famous Hero
Its quite hot inside...
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posted February 03, 2010 08:36 PM |
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@SKPRIMUS u meant berserk ? If yes, then I didnt. Battle rage is just a single attack when it comes to 1vs1 combat, so I presume that Retal should work...
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SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
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posted February 04, 2010 08:38 AM |
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Edited by SKPRIMUS at 08:41, 04 Feb 2010.
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@Arcax, during some of my many hav v dwa faction duel tests I did before [& just now confirmed again just for you:], the knight power retal strike does not trigger when the unit is hit by an enemy dwa unit with the rune of battle rage ...as for berserk rune, the knight power retal strike seems to trigger only once after both attacks have occurred...ofc motd has to be better in every single way doesn't it? (you can even get exc strike to make it better!) *rolls eyes*
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Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 04, 2010 09:07 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 10:18, 04 Feb 2010.
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Quote:
the knight power retal strike does not trigger when the unit is hit by an enemy dwa unit with the rune of battle rage
Maybe because Rune of Battlerage prevents retaliation in the first place...? Kinda hard to have a retaliationbased special trigger without a retaliation, right? Or did I missunderstand something you said?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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