|
| Thread: Confirmed: goblins are the unit in Heroes V!! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
|
sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
|
posted January 24, 2010 01:54 PM |
|
|
Confirmed: goblins are the BEST unit in Heroes V!!
First, my full claim: "Goblins are the most cost-effective TANKS in the game." My calculations are here: http://cid-2cc011c7190f36c8.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/Heroes%20V%20tanking%20power.xls
This is as much a mathematical interest as a personal rant. When I say that low-level creatures are more cost-effective, everyone just laughs at me. See, one of the core mechanics of the whole HOMM series is growth limitations. When you build up your town to bigger or better creatures, what you are really doing is expanding your creature production AT AN INCREASING MARGINAL COST. Since you never have the gold to hire everything from all your towns after a couple of weeks, its better to hire out the low-level stuff and/or the non-upgraded units first (unless you know exactly which abilities you are using).
I know units can be shooters, casters and flyers as well as tanks, I'm not that stupid. But remember that as model go, they all have tons of limitations by definition, because they are abstractions from reality, simplifications that capture and highlight the essence of the theory in a useful manner. Besides, melee combat is by far the most common action in a real battle.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
posted January 24, 2010 02:10 PM |
|
|
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense you know. Perhaps if you have like 1000 gold and can't hire anything else..
Even with rage they can hardly be considered tanks, attack then a couple of times to make them retreat and their rage easily becomes negative. In fact you don't seem to know what a tank is, this may explain a few things.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 24, 2010 02:13 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 14:17, 24 Jan 2010.
|
well, goblins have no protection against magic or against shooters and don't retaliate. moreover, you only have to kill 70% of them.
the shield defenders are true level 1 tank in another hand.
they receive -50% damage from rangers
they receive up to -90% damage from melee attacker
their defense can't be decreased
they retaliate (ok, they deal very little damage)
why isn't the golem in that poll? ok, it is a bit weak in defense compared to squires, but it has the characteristic of a tank
|
|
veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
|
|
posted January 24, 2010 02:17 PM |
|
|
____________
none of my business.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 24, 2010 02:32 PM |
|
|
Hey for all we know he's a troll 
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
|
|
posted January 24, 2010 03:23 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense you know. Perhaps if you have like 1000 gold and can't hire anything else..
Let's say you have 5000 gold this turn, and you want to give your secondary hero something to act as a skirmish force. You emptied your 5-digit treasury last turn because you want your main hero to go do some killing with a real army. You have two week's worth of creatures in one of your other towns.
I am saying:
a) Most people will think 1 cyclops, 5 sky daughters and 15 goblin trappers for sacrifice and traps. Chain lightning and goblin-eating are both effective at small battles, seems a natural choice.
b) I would hire out all the low level creatures first. 50 goblins, 28 centaur marauders (no melee penalty), 22 warriors and 2 sky daughters for casting haste/slow. I'm quite confident about having a force that needs the attention of a real army, not just a good hero (not all heroes have destructive magic).
Fauch: you mean their upgrade, the shieldguard? Given 4000 gold, would you prefer 25 shieldguards to 100 goblins? Maybe you would, maybe not, I don't know, what do you think and why?
Besides, it's not just about cheapness, it's also about cost-efficiency. Another example: I'm not the only one that likes hydras as creepers and then as tanks, but are their upgrades really worth it? Or should I save the gold for A SECOND ARMY?
____________
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 24, 2010 03:44 PM |
|
|
Risking 1 cyclops and all your shamans is just bad management as is using warriors in creeping. A creeping army is not about high lvl units but having the right combination - even so that is secondary to the hero's build and tactics.
If someone attacks you that early a ballista would play a more important role than your army. Hydra upgrades are an absolute must in a map where you cannot use stalkers and even more important in a final battle. Either way carrying extra army for dungeon creeping is not required - stalkers, furies and MAYBE hydras are all you need.
Finally a map that allows week 2-3 skirmishes is not balanced so it's irrelevant either way.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 24, 2010 11:20 PM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 23:24, 24 Jan 2010.
|
Quote:
Fauch: you mean their upgrade, the shieldguard? Given 4000 gold, would you prefer 25 shieldguards to 100 goblins? Maybe you would, maybe not, I don't know, what do you think and why?
for 4000 gold, I can get 100 shieldguards or 400 goblins
100 shieldguards x 12 HPs = 1200 HPs with defense 5
400 goblins x 3 HPs = 1200 HPs with defense 1
you have to kill 70% of them, so it's actually 1200 x 0.7 = 840 HPs
offensively, goblins are much better of course.
well, there isn't much to think actually, having played with and against both of these units, I would choose the shieldguards, they are even harder to kill than zombies.
I made ingvar as a duel hero with only shieldguards and it was insane. how much time do you need to kill 700 shieldguards with 17 HPs and 25 defense?
of course, an army of slow units isn't that hard to handle, but it's not taking into account the spells and the runes.
|
|
Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 25, 2010 01:39 PM |
|
Edited by Momo at 17:35, 25 Jan 2010.
|
Quote:
a) Most people will think 1 cyclops, 5 sky daughters and 15 goblin trappers for sacrifice and traps. Chain lightning and goblin-eating are both effective at small battles, seems a natural choice.
This is the premise of your reasoning, and is flawed. Not many players would in fact chose 1 tier7 and some tier4 rather than a more consistant army.
Even my cousin, whose experience with Heroes consist in having played by himself H3 for a year or so knows the principle that you try to increase your army first. It's an application of the general strategic principle that focusing all your resources into one single threat is usually wrong. For the same reason, for instance, in Magic the Gathering paying 3 mana for three 1/1 tokens is lightyears better than paying the same mana for a 3/3 creature.
And again for the same reason (especially taking into account the fact that you'd be shooting at the opposing forces with keeps, ballista, and the hero) it may even be convienient to take low level troops and divide them in many stacks so to prolong the number of turns needed to kill them.
More on possible "exceptions" to this hypothetical rule of thumb you seem to disagree with - many of your choices can vary greatly depending on circumstances. For instance if the opponent relay mostly or totally on spells than Black Dragon would be an appealing defensive choice than a bunch of tier1; if he/she relies on physical attacks poltergeists (or even ghosts!) should be considered. And the strategy in the above paragraph (splitting troops to gain time) shouldn't necessarily apply if the opponent has mass-effect spells. In short, there are so many variants and exceptions that a rule of thumb barely exist.
Long story short, you try to break a prejudice that no one has.
|
|
phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
|
|
posted January 25, 2010 03:56 PM |
|
|
In extreme circumstances however the premise that goblins are an excellent unit is very valid. Ingvar made this way into the thread, well how about (i foget his name) the goblin +1 +1 hero. I remember playing Mytical who had 500+ of these goblins with that hero and I couldn't even dent them.
Plus I find the specials of the goblins to be more useful than the **** shieldguard.
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
|
|
SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
|
|
posted January 26, 2010 04:05 AM |
|
|
Quote:
...I remember playing Mytical who had 500+ of these goblins with that hero and I couldn't even dent them...
Ah now I understand why Mytical mentioned the goblin hero some time ago
& I agree that goblins are the best heroes in unit V!
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus 
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted January 26, 2010 08:11 AM |
|
|
I forget the name of the 'goblin hero' but I will let you know this. While one of the SLOWEST Stronghold heroes to build, at higher levels he becomes a monster. Especially if you go for Ultimate Rage. Because one of the perks you get for that is the one that gives you a goblin a day (I think). Now 7 goblins a week will not help you in short games, won't even be that huge in really long games, but the extra goblins are just a little 'bonus'.
First he starts with a ton of goblins, and goblins are really really abundant. Additional hero will always have gobbies, so you can start with a whole lot of them. With one city, Castle, garbage pile the numbers can add up. There is the problem with the no retaliation thing..but first off if you gobbies are getting hit a lot you are doing something wrong. Much like Zombies, they more then likely are the last things that your opponit will be worried about. Which with the Goblin Hero can be a huge mistake.
As for best level 1 creature..no I wouldn't go that far. Not 1 on 1. They are probably only second in how many you can get to the Skeleton, and with the DE changes..maybe even more then the skeleton. Your Goblins should outnumber the other guys fist level creatures for the most part.
Take out heroes, and focusing on just the creature. Nothing to write home about.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 26, 2010 08:19 AM |
|
|
Quote:
First he starts with a ton of goblins, and goblins are really really abundant.
No he doesn't. I kinda like him but still wouldn't prefer him over some others, at least he's got easy access to battle elation which helps in creeping.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted January 26, 2010 08:28 AM |
|
|
He starts with the most goblins of all of them, and with any other hero extra's goblins, that is a lot  . Plus 1st day you normally have goblins to buy. Anywho, he is a little more late game then a lot of them for the most part. He has to build some levels to really help. One big draw back is to optimize him and use his easier access to Ultimate Rage, means no Balista skills.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 26, 2010 08:31 AM |
|
|
Not in my game, same goblins as everyone.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted January 26, 2010 08:33 AM |
|
|
Hmm, well it has been awhile, and my memory isn't the best *shrugs*
____________
Message received.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2010 07:25 PM |
|
|
well, of course you will have more goblins than anything else, since they have the fastest growth in the game
but I doubt they are worth gremlins saboteurs, warriors skeletons or shieldguards. and kilghan doesn't boost their stats. is 20 goblins per week better than +10 attack and defense?
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted January 27, 2010 07:23 AM |
|
|
As I said, alone...no. Memory of our blood + Building that supplies rage, and possibly Ultimate Rage...Most deffinately. Add in Hordes Anger with the +7 goblins per week just from the perk, things change in a hurry.
____________
Message received.
|
|
SKPRIMUS
Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
|
|
posted January 27, 2010 03:29 PM |
|
|
I suppose starting with 100+ gobs & adding a minor number of gobs at beginning of a week was unfortunately thought by developers as too powerful for boosting hordes anger, so I guess that's why they decided against Kilghan boosting atk/def like Haggash! or Gorshak!...how's that for strange reasoning
Now if he did boost gob's atk/def, then Kilghan would at least be a little bit more comparable to the other barb heroes...the gobs are not too bad when attacking even without extra boost due to barb hero stats & perks...
But again mentioning the ultimate?...I'd say the benefit of the starting skill/perk is helping in smooth levelling for retribution/aura if one is not aiming for warmachines...or maybe you like the crippling wound or purge ability of the gobs at 2nd rage level?
____________
Hope defeats despair - "a blatant clue"
too many idiots in VW
"to lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose"
bashing orcus
|
|
sylvanllewelyn
Hired Hero
|
|
posted January 28, 2010 11:03 AM |
|
|
Okay, I tried similar calculations with Heroes 2&3*, with the help of some cool Excel functions:
http://cid-2cc011c7190f36c8.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/HOMM%20plain%20tanking%20power.xls
I found that the higher efficiency of lower-level units only exists in Heroes 5 and does not apply to Heroes 2 or 3. In Heroes 2 efficiency is biased towards high-level units, meaning lower marginal cost of production expansion (I miss my bone dragon rushes online). Heroes 3 towns expand their production at roughly constant marginal cost, discrepencies generally due to having more melee units at that level.
*(The Heroes4 formula is relativistic. I need to first prove that the operation generates a totally ordered metric space before I can do it. If not, you get stone-paper-scissor situations and the system breaks down.)
____________
|
|
|
|
