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| Thread: SKILLING TREE: Hack the Hack |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted July 23, 2006 01:33 AM |
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SKILLING TREE: Hack the Hack
This is about Heroes Secondary Skilling. I want to recruit a small tag team that is doing some empiric work to "Hack the Hack". Lets reveal the secret.
Some thing we DO KNOW about secondary skilling:
It CANT be purely random as sequenzes repeat from time to time within a compared little data amount. Also that some skill do come at fixed slots during the skilling doesnt make it pure random.
It CANT be in prefixed "sequenzes" within the game code as the balancing data file (txt) DOES influence the skilling.
Knowing this my next idea is that there are certain skill groups for certain skill slots. Like we do already know that in skill slot 4 for a might here there will always be a magic skill, and we do know that in slot 7 there will always be a wisdom. Those things MUST be
fixed within the game code. Are those things EXCEPTIONS? Or are there more slots determined to certain skills??
So lets get some empiric data!! Who wants to join the testing team(about 20-40 skillings per person) ???
Sign here! 
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted July 23, 2006 07:49 PM |
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Hack the Hack?
First of all, I am in. But I do have very limited time the last 3 weeks + I had no vacation up to now, so ... you might have to be patient for my results. You know, I was thinking about exactly the same thing. The reason I didn't state it explicitly is because it requires some coding (and I am a bit bored and a bit out of time - read above ...). Why do I need some coding? The reason is the following: To develop a simple tool that gives you the options (both new skill + offer for upgrade) as you level up your hero so that you avoid WRITING DOWN  and ofcourse generate a Database with the skills that were offered. Man ... I wish I knew you 5 years earlier when you and 5-10 more people made those 95000+ tries. Now, we wouldn't have to start from scratch!
Anyway, this is the reason I postponed the whole process. However, if we end up with a pretty-large team, I can give it a higher priority and prepare the tool we need in pretty much sort time.
By the way, ... this game with word "hack" on the title of your thread was going to be on my subsequent title with respect to Crag-Hack tests! I hate you! 
- dimis -
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The empty set
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted July 23, 2006 07:58 PM |
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Welcome Back ?
You did say "empiric" right ? So you need testers and not necessarily progammers.
I'm interested in the matter, as y'all already know. Now, would it really be a good idea to team up again ?  
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LM  
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 09:43 PM |
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Im in.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted July 24, 2006 11:14 PM |
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 30, 2006 06:20 AM |
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Quote:
Like we do already know that in skill slot 4 for a might here there will always be a magic skill, and we do know that in slot 7 there will always be a wisdom.
Are you sure? It seems strange to me, because the most natural way of programming skilling is to store random seed for each hero and use random generator in further skilling. Also note that in HcTraits.txt there are stored chances for each hero type to get a certain skill. There may be a rule to give everyone wisdom at some point, because it's essencial to have it, but I'm sure this is an exception.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 30, 2006 11:27 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 09:39, 31 Jul 2006.
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There are some more rules about skills and skilltrees. Just read a bit through the library, then u will find the threads which explain them.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 30, 2006 01:28 PM |
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted July 30, 2006 08:33 PM |
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Sorry im very busy at the moment. Will give concrete testing instructions as soon as possible.
Lets see who we have:
Xarfax1 (yeah mention me first!)
Dimis (in the end it was his idea)
Maretti (hardcore!)
LegendI (omg, well ok)
Binabik (in the end it is his theory)
Angelito (hes a mod, he read it, HES IN)
Ecoris (another tester hes in)
Btw. the testing will be really EASY, so would be cool to find some more who will participate. How much testing someone will do, you can decide on your own. All results will be appreciated.
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lkru33
Promising
Famous Hero
3x NFL Pick'em Champ
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posted August 01, 2006 05:49 PM |
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If the testing will be easy, count me in. I don't have time these days to play full games online, so I might as well contribute in other ways.
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted August 02, 2006 09:29 AM |
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Yeh, if testing isn't that time consuming, put me in as well
Would there be any difference between RoE, AB and SoD?
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted August 02, 2006 05:36 PM |
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DB-Handler
I 've uploaded a small tool that might be used for this process. You can find it here.
Please note before you start making excessive use of the program:
Quote:
ONE FINAL NOTE: Please do NOT exhaust yourselves by generating data with ACTUAL EXPERIMENTS. We have to discuss many details, for the experimantation process, since on a subsequent level we will apply some kind of filtering on episodes generated. I hope this is clear enough.
- dimis -
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The empty set
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted August 02, 2006 11:14 PM |
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Lets get it on!
Keep things simple! Here a picture that shows the testing.
Hack is simply opening a pandora box with enough experience
in it to level up to level8.
The level up MUST FOLLOWsome simple rules:
1. ALWAYSaccept the new skill on the right side.
2. Dontuse "Restart szenario" if you do a new level up.
Pretty simple i think:
Please ONLY use this little map i made (only SOD3.2 or Complete)
http://xaronline.xmpl.de/Hack.hm3
Please ONLY use this little Excel table to write it down. Please
DONT change anything of this table:
http://xaronline.xmpl.de/Hack.xls
Here is a little example of how it should look like. On the left
you see the secondary skills. Next to it there are the Numbers
were the skills occurred during the skilling (from 1-8).
Offense is fixed as 1, as it is prefixed for Hack. So you start to write down with 2 to 8, for the next levels.
In this example you can already see some things, that are 100% valid:
Hack CANT get Water or Necromancy (noted as 0)
Wisdom is in Skillslot 6 (if not offered before)
A Magic Skill is given in Skillslot 4 (if not offered before)
Open for discussion:
This "if not offered before" thing lets me think to only write down the skilling if wisdom and a magic skill is offered "in the right place", in order to get better results imO.
Regards Xarfax1
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted August 02, 2006 11:33 PM |
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Nice, but some questions. Shouldn't we try to track down what is offered on the left side as well? Do we stop on level 8 ignoring the upgrades?
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The empty set
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted August 03, 2006 12:03 AM |
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Quote:
Nice, but some questions. Shouldn't we try to track down what is offered on the left side as well? Do we stop on level 8 ignoring the upgrades?
1. no 2. yes
to 1.: The rules how the level advance is else to the skilling probabilities.
to 2.: There is no randomness in the upgrades after reaching level8. All skills are given, so senseless to write them down.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted August 03, 2006 01:17 AM |
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Quote:
Please ONLY use this little map i made (only SOD3.2 or Complete)
http://xaronline.xmpl.de/Hack.hm3
Ok this link doesnt work as *.hm3 extension is seen as "executing file". Well it doesnt work, its not interesting why.
So simply put a 11.000 experience box next to an unedited Lvl1 Hack and open it.
Best regards Olaf
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted August 03, 2006 07:57 AM |
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How do you want the data after we test? Would it be easiest just to post data in comma delimited format? That way it can be pasted into a text file and imported into a spreadsheet.
For example 15 test results:
Air,,4,,4,,,4,,,4,,,,,8
Archery,4,,,,,,,,,2,,3,8,,,
Armorer,,,8,8,5,8,2,7,,,,,,2
Artillery,8,,7,,,,,7,,,,,,,2
Balistics,,,,3,,,,,,,,2,5,,,
I think we should keep the data for tests where wisdom/magic are in the wrong place. I hate throwing away test results. We can figure out how to interpret the data later.
So far I've run 100 tests. But I've only recorded about 35 of them.
I went to the main menu each time, but I've noticed 4 different skill trees that happened more than one. I wasn't even looking at the data yet, I just happened to notice those four. It would be nice to know if anyone else gets the same skill trees.
Here are the ones I've found so far. So keep an eye out for these (and others).
offense,estates,earth,intelligence,fire,wisdom,ballistics,scouting
offense,ballistics,scouting,earth,pathfinding,wisdom,armorer,tactics
offense,pathfinding,armorer,fire,ballistics,wisdom,tactics,eagle eye
offense,armorer,fire,leadership,artillery,wisdom,tactics,air
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 03, 2006 09:56 AM |
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Quote:
I think we should keep the data for tests where wisdom/magic are in the wrong place. I hate throwing away test results. We can figure out how to interpret the data later.
I agree. We could always leave out those results afterwards.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted August 03, 2006 10:43 AM |
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Hi Binabik,
i think to write it down into an Excel table make things more convinient. As far as i know you can save the Excel table as txt-file
in the end. Please have a look if this txt-file would be ok for you.
Xarfax1
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted August 03, 2006 11:14 AM |
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Edited by maretti at 12:07, 03 Aug 2006.
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I started testing and found out something disturbing. After 11 diffrent skilling trees the same 2 trees came up again and again. After these 2 had come up 10 times in a row i quit the game and when I started testing again some other skilling trees came up.
I started again and at some point the same skilling tree came up again and agian (only one tree this time). I noticed that crag had the same xp (11083) every time. After that I started writing his xp down and I noticed that he at some point got 2 diffrent trees with the same xp. So its not that the skills are 100% determined by his starting xp, which could be a thought (the mighty krumolaters idea) but the starting xp might have some influence on things.
I had made another map exactly like the first one so I changed to that one and the exact same tree came up again and again on that one as well. Then I changed to a battle map with a 50 k box and on this one he got a new set of skills.
This is just my observations, I cant really figure out what to conclude from this, but with this many brilliants minds im sure you guys will come up with something from this.
Another thing is, it seems that if you pick a new skills, like we do in this test, you will get wisdom as lvl 6 every single time. This wont happen every time if you sometimes pick an existing skill. Therefore it seems this test cant stand alone to determine all the patterns in the skilling tree. For example this test wouldnt have found the "some kind of magic at least every 4th turn" pattern.
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Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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