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| Thread: The Real Answer to Hit an Run |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Darxion
Adventuring Hero
For The Honor......
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posted July 17, 2001 12:32 PM |
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For The Honor........
I think my signature line says it all: "Power Of Might, Power Of Magic! For the Honor....."
Real world or fantasy, it really doesn't matter. There will always be those that play honorably. There will always be those that play dishonorably. No matter what rules you make, or don't make, someone will inevitably break the rules. If they don't break them, they will challenge them (which is always a good thing, whether right or wrong, changed or not).
I personally do not like the idea of H&R. I personally agree that there should be changes made to address H&R by 3D0. In regards to ToH, however, and considering the thoughts of a rebellious mind - "rules are made to be broken" - I don't think it is realistic to impose any rules in regards to H&R. In fact, I don't think there should be any rules. Guidelines or suggestions, yes. Rules, no.
If you are good, you will win. If you are bad (like me...lol), you will lose. But in the end, it is the enjoyment and experience that the game gives you that makes the difference!
I also agree with the others that make the statement reference cheaters and H&R specialists - if you play one, win or lose, you will never play them again. Word gets around and sooner or later, that player will either be booted (for cheating) or not have any opponents except Plebes (for taking advantage of certain "glitches" in the game). "What comes around, goes around!"
Side Note: I prefer a good game with a slow build to a glorious final battle......the strategy of what town to choose, what heroes to recruit, what troops to load up with, what artifacts and quests to obtain, and the ability to use them in a great battle.....now that is what it is all about! :{>
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Power of Might, Power of Magic!
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 17, 2001 02:34 PM |
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Edited By: woods on 17 Jul 2001
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your honor isnt my honor....
oki, i've decided to stop t-o-h until the release of h4.
but if that'll be the future
>> I also agree with the others that make the statement reference cheaters and H&R specialists - if you play one, win or lose, you will never play them again. Word gets around and sooner or later, that player will either be booted (for cheating) or not have any opponents except Plebes (for taking advantage of certain "glitches" in the game). "What comes around, goes around!" <<
of t-o-h (get booted because of rumours) then 'poor world' !
seems to me your 'honor' is a glitch 
-woods
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 17, 2001 07:21 PM |
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All I can say is that this rule of H&R limits the game.
It's like removing the CORNER rule in soccer, or ICING in HOCKEY. Or whatever other rule in whatever other game.
The game can be made this way - HEROES with LEADERSHIP should not leave their army (or if you want people to agree between themselves before starting the game). The only creatures you can leave on your battlefield will be the one without LEADERSHIP - like golems, undead, gargoyles - but this is still unimplemented into game - and may never be.
But if you play mainly with NECRO'S (like me) - I don't see any reason why leaving my army and fleeing is a bad thing - it's like leaving your WEAPONS compared to the for the castle units. My skeletons don't have any problem with leaving them on the ground - they are all commanded under spell - and they don't have any feelings or so ever. Same with golems, gargoyles - and left of the undeads.
More interresting can be - that some of the creatures you leave - may join the opposite army. If creatures can have MORALE then if you leave them they'll join the opposite, if they don't have - they'll stay unctrolled. Or somethin' like that. Probably this's for "Heroes4 wishes"?
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Darxion
Adventuring Hero
For The Honor......
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posted July 17, 2001 09:46 PM |
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Interesting..........
<< of t-o-h (get booted because of rumours) then 'poor world' !
seems to me your 'honor' is a glitch >>
My apologies if you took offense, but I am not sure where you are coming from. First off, I never said anything about getting booted because of rumors. Rumors do not prove or disprove cheating. Rumors have no place in an honorable and/or final judgement.
Also important to note (just in case), I never said H&R was cheating. I said I do not like the idea of H&R as it is in HOMM3. I believe it to be a glitch that needs to be adjusted, not necessarily removed, by 3DO.
As to playing someone who takes advantage of glitches/bugs during game play, more power to you. I, personally, find no honor in it. That is not to say the person who is using the tactic is necessarily dishonorable. However, if the tactic itself is a known bug, and not the unitentional way the tactic was set up, and one takes advantage of it to try to win a game, that (to me) is the same as cheating. Just because it is there to exploit doesn't make it right or honroable.
As for HIT and RUN, it is not a bug, but more a glitch - perhaps unintentional or not well thought out by 3DO - and is NOT cheating. It is, however, looked upon unfavorably by many in its current state. That is not to say that if 3DO adjusts better to the use of H&R in HOMM4, that it won't become a neutral or favored tactic. :{>
PS. I wonder why you would take offense and cry out to stop playing ToH for HOMM3? :{
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Power of Might, Power of Magic!
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted July 17, 2001 11:48 PM |
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Was it Irwin Rommel or J.P. Patches who said,"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day."
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Darxion
Adventuring Hero
For The Honor......
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posted July 18, 2001 01:59 AM |
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So true.....BUT.......
Quote:
Was it Irwin Rommel or J.P. Patches who said,"He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day."
Though there is truth to this, notice the word "fights". This denotes a battle where one side or the other faces imminent loss and chooses to retreat (or surrender) to hopefully rebuild and fight again. It does not denote someone who attacks with the full intention of never fighting a battle and only retreating (or surrendering) without impunity.
Though there is a valid use for a scout to check a town or hero to determine the strengths and/or troops levels, a scout (in its more pure form) is a surveyor of the land, an "observator" of enemy movement, a seeker of information in advance of a battle. A scout will not attack unless attacked, and more likely, a scout will retreat or never get close enough to be noticed and attacked.
A spy (??which there are none of in HOMM??) is a different aspect of a scout; however, even a spy will take minimal risks and not H&R other than to escape capture, if even that.
Someone who hits and runs in HOMM3 is most likely not scouting nor spying nor taking part in a fight; they are taking advantage of the fact that they can hurt their opponent (and scout their opponent) without impunity and at little or no more cost other than to recruit the hero again. This is where H&R is not necessarily honorable.....and only available for abuse because of some lack of insight and thought on the part of 3DO.
Enuff said..........hopefully I have not offended anyone. Tis never my intention. Play on!!! :{>
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Power of Might, Power of Magic!
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted July 18, 2001 02:12 AM |
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I believe the tactic you are descibing is called guerilla warfare. It is a tactic used to anger and demoralize a stronger opponant. Hit and run and run and run...
(personally I use the superhero tactic so if someone attacks me with a superior force my whole game may be
over.)
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted July 18, 2001 02:42 AM |
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....Live to fight another day.
While it may have been honorable at one time for two knights to horse up and go at it one-on-one those days are gone. The U.S. Military (and any other effective military) today fights almost totally in a "Hit & Run" mode. Smart bombs and missles, are "Hit & Run" and even light infantry are now taught that "Hit & Run" is the BEST tactic.
The British said "no fair" when minutemen hid behind trees and shot the Redcoats. So what?
If I am playing a large random map and draw a Fortress or
Stronghold or Necro and you draw a Dungeon..... I will "Hit & Run" anytime I can before you get those Black Dragons. If not, I have few chances!
I will Dragon Fly bomb you, Wraith bomb you, Ghost Dragon bomb you or whatever it takes.
Anyone damn fool enough to stop 3 steps from my castle door can expect to lose the game!
When Heroes 4 comes out, if its still possible.......
I will "Hit & Run" even if its not necessary in order to "anger and demorilize" my enemy. If you think its unfair and dont want to play anymore..... Kewl!
As a matter of fact..... I will rejoin ToH when Heroes 4 comes out so I can once again play wild and crazy Heroes!
I can absolutely guarantee that some tactics will be frowned on by the unimaginative.
"Hit & Run" lives!!!
(With Tymeria closed I have waay too much time on my hands 8)
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 18, 2001 06:33 AM |
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Perhaps
Quote:
I have good idea of hero surrender and retreat system.
If hero lost his battle, and disgracefully surrendered!!
HE MUST BE DOWNGRADED!! That's what he is supposed to be.
HE SHOULD BE PUNISHED !!!!
I think everytime he surrender, he shud get 2 lvl minus penulty. Of course he lost 2nd skills and 1st skills.
(Lost skills shud be random, not predictable.. and hero exp. is same as before....So he will have real hard time regain his former level.)
In case of retreat, -1 lvl penalty will do.
That is justice. I love justice.
I think this idea is the best so far, the only thing I would modify it is if you surrender and lose levels, you can get those levels back by winning a battle to regain each level. To regain lost confidence prestige whatever, there are very many older strategy games out there with this theory, if your commander losses a battle he loses rank also, and if he wins he gains rank. Just like WWII with generals being dismissed then reassigned etc. I wish I remembered the names of all the games that incorporated this idea, I know I have played at least 2 or 3 games like this.
The great thing with this I think is that the longer the game lasts the harder it is to Hit&run, especially with spells that require expert magics, cause if you lose them randomly and have to win battles to regain- what will you do when all the creatures you could fight are killed off? I see a valid place for hit&run especially in earlier parts of game when one side might get a big advantage or try to early rush you. As spells get more powerful later in the game then the balance deteriorates apace.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 18, 2001 06:50 AM |
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Yes, yes...
Quote:
While it may have been honorable at one time for two knights to horse up and go at it one-on-one those days are gone. The U.S. Military (and any other effective military) today fights almost totally in a "Hit & Run" mode. Smart bombs and missles, are "Hit & Run" and even light infantry are now taught that "Hit & Run" is the BEST tactic.
The British said "no fair" when minutemen hid behind trees and shot the Redcoats. So what?
If I am playing a large random map and draw a Fortress or
Stronghold or Necro and you draw a Dungeon..... I will "Hit & Run" anytime I can before you get those Black Dragons. If not, I have few chances!
I will Dragon Fly bomb you, Wraith bomb you, Ghost Dragon bomb you or whatever it takes.
Anyone damn fool enough to stop 3 steps from my castle door can expect to lose the game!
When Heroes 4 comes out, if its still possible.......
I will "Hit & Run" even if its not necessary in order to "anger and demorilize" my enemy. If you think its unfair and dont want to play anymore..... Kewl!
As a matter of fact..... I will rejoin ToH when Heroes 4 comes out so I can once again play wild and crazy Heroes!
I can absolutely guarantee that some tactics will be frowned on by the unimaginative.
"Hit & Run" lives!!!
(With Tymeria closed I have waay too much time on my hands 8)
There is my opinion from someone else. As far as I can see many of the good players here say they won't ever play people who us Hit&Run. Well, I've played a couple of the people who said that and I know they used it. This was back in season 1 so maybe they changed their minds since then which is fine, but there was a time...
Also- Hit&run is the best tactic almost always in a cost effectiveness view. So it's understandable the temptation to use it and also by othes to ban it's use. I personally think its a challenge and makes the game more fun to come up with a strategy around hit&run. I frequently play games where the other person takes Solmyr or Deemer or whoever and I take some measly unknown hero. It's much more satisfying if I end up winning. If I don't- and I haven't always, just mostly- I don't mind usually since either they were as good a player as me or else I made a mistake and am mad at the mistake not that they won as a result of a better spell and hit&run which I anticipated, but still lost because of my mistake, not what they did. Just before Tymeria was closed, I actually lost a game in week 2 because a computer opponent had Deemer and found +10 -2 artifact. I was mad sure, very angry in fact- but I certainly was reminded of a lesson I had vowed never to forget years ago- never send main hero into unscouted areas. It was more difficult on this particular mapl, ocean and 200% settings, but still- if I wad been cautios and applied lessons I knew I could have avoided that so it was really my mistake, not bad luck that cost me that game.
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 18, 2001 10:06 AM |
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Edited By: woods on 18 Jul 2001
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@darxion
hi there
think u are a pretty new one so one short advise :
since months there was a discussion about rules (especially no h&r) sometimes objective sometimes not objective....
i dont want to fresh up this discussion - my decision is to wait for h4 (let the rulers change that lovely game as they want)
and now u broke in with ur pathetic words of honor and ur theories of 'glitches' - better u'd taken the time to read those threads before....
and one word to 'rumors' - i believe that u wanted to say :
>>Rumors do not prove or disprove cheating. Rumors have no place in an honorable and/or final judgement. <<
i do absolutely agree with that....
but u wrote :
>>Word gets around and sooner or later...>>
and thats a description for rumors....
my regards to craighack....
-woods
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted July 18, 2001 05:38 PM |
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Woods, i think his comment about word getting around was not in reference to anyone being booted as a result, but that he was referring to those who won't play others that hit and run - saying they would hear from others if a player uses hit and run and choose not to play that person.
I've played several players that are not opposed to the H&R tactic, and that i know have used it in past games - and have never had them use this tactic on me. So i think that to pass a judgement so quickly on a player that you will never play them isn't right - it can only cost you the chance to play people that you might learn from and become friends with. Many of the players who have posted in defense of H&R here are not players who use this tactic as their only strategy - but those who believe that in the game all options should be left available, and there's nothing wrong in that either.
Of course there are also those who post things like
"I will "Hit & Run" even if its not necessary in order to "anger and demorilize" my enemy. If you think its unfair and dont want to play anymore..... Kewl! "
And i will certainly never play anyone who's intent in playing the game is only to try to upset someone to the point of giving them a free win. That kind of thing is what makes those who play without H&R so opposed to the tactic, and why this topic usually recieves such high tempered comments...
But to those of you like myself who don't use the tactic, don't view that quote as a means to judge all who hit and run, cuz you'd be missing out on the chance to play many great players.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 18, 2001 06:22 PM |
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Nice one pan!
I have also played advocates of the Hit and Run tactic, yet all of these players have outplayed me through superior skill and not had to resort to desperation, just as Pan just said. She hit it right on the head when she said she'd never play anyone who's sole intent was to anger and demoralize the opponent. Hell, I wouldn't either.
It's a game after all, and the object of any game is to have fun. Fun is not a one sided word either, it also applies to the losing side and if you find that you're the one who's going to win, then at least try and be honourable about it and spice it up for the person who's got the short end of the stick.
It's a pity that there are ruthless people in the world who don't give a rats butt about having fun. If you Hit and Run ALL the time, then I'd bet a dollar (yes I am cheap) that you have a pretty hard time finding a decent game.
Come to think of it CraigHack, when was the last time you used Hit&Run to win a game and had a cheerful loser on the other end of the line?
This tactic has probably been the bane of Heroes3, like it or not, but just like Malkia said, very few games aren't without them.
I would have thought that a simple fix to this problem would be allowing the defender right of first strike, regardless of creature speed. And if not, then the surrender option should not be allowed to attackers. After all, who ever calculated an attack upon an enemy army and then surrendered after the initiative?
*smile*
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 18, 2001 06:46 PM |
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no dispute... :)
mb i've misunderstood that sentence but i've read
>> if you play one, win or lose, you will never play them again. Word gets around and sooner or later, that player will either be booted (for cheating) or not have any opponents except Plebes (for taking advantage of certain "glitches" in the game). "What comes around, goes around!"
<<
so whats the difference of beeing booted because of cheating
or no one in a tourney wants to play u (because s.o. thinks you are taking advantages of 'glitches') ??
imo its better to be booted because of cheating !
why ?
because then there must be p r o v e s !!!
but anyway....putative majority decides
-woods
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted July 18, 2001 07:04 PM |
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Hard time finding a decent game?
Quote:
It's a pity that there are ruthless people in the world who don't give a rats butt about having fun. If you Hit and Run ALL the time, then I'd bet a dollar (yes I am cheap) that you have a pretty hard time finding a decent game.
Well lets see, I am starting my 11 th tournament game since the 8th of May today. 8 of the 10 played were wins for me.
Only one of those wins were a result of hit & run tactics.
(sorry "K" 8) I have more than one tactic in my bag.
I do give a "rats butt" about having fun. My fun is having my opponents do anything they can, within the game, to win, and if they do....
GREAT! I salute them! I may get irritated now and then but it doesnt change the fact that they won/I lost. I dont even want to play a game with some p***y who has a list of rules a yard long and still gets pissed when they lose.
Please send the dollar to my PayPal account.
(smile)
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted July 19, 2001 01:22 AM |
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But Woods, surely you know that its not the majority who would refuse to play you based on a tactic , its no reason to quit playing
I hate to see anyone from either side of this arguement become so discouraged by it that they won't play, in a tourney of ToH's great size there's definately more than enough people that anyone - no matter what style of play they prefer will be able to find a fun game!
My list of people i will not play is quite short, and based only on my own experiences with a person - or based on statements like how they will play with the intent of angering and demoralizing others whom they like to refer to as "p___ies". :/ I'm sure I am one with many others who will not judge based on someone else's story as to how they play.
By the way, HOW does this topic keep coming back?? LOL
P.S to Mr.Hack, i mean you no offense - by all means play as you wish - hopefully with a little respect for your fellow players....
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 02:27 AM |
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Wondering...
Well, you are one of the few top ranked ToH players I haven't played Pandora, so I don't know now if it's coincidence or your choice since I defend hit&run so much. I might not get the right spells or situation to do a truly devastating hit&run every game, but every game in which I do I will surely use it. Also, just hit&runnning with lightening a few times is enough to tip the battle in my favor so I'll usually do that if I can. The one result of this is I find people usually hole up and either wait in their castles for me, or attack me as fast as they can. Either one is fun for me and speed up the game if they attack fast. I don't have as much time for long games as I used to and also find myself making more mistakes the longer the game is because I get bored. If I save halfway through and actually resume play it's much better for me, but not many seem willing to do this. I remember you used to play very often allied games so perhaps that is why I have never played you, still- I don't really have a list of people I would never play. I don't like playing with lots of rules so if I have two people wanting to play and one wants rules the otehr doesn't I will always play the one without rules unless it becomes personal. Then I prefer to play the person I don't like just so I can win and school them in their error. Not many times like this, but I've had two games against ToH(ex ToH now) where it was a very long game but I had no problems getting bored because insults were going almost all game. Of course they quit and didn't want to report eventually subsequently their remmoval from ToH, but these games wre very intense though maybe not exactly fun. I prefer fun relaxed games with some challegen to keep me inerested, but I'm not above a torrid hate game if someone pisses me off enough. Usually by calling me cheater because I beat them so quick the first game or else saying I got lucky to get an artifact(when it was in their area or closer to their town! I was faster getting it, not lucky! and then not wanting to report or saying they will go to honor council.) Anyway, it's totally someone's choice whom they play, but I think it's strange to refuse anyone even if you know they cheat. I'd rather play a cheater at times to show them even cheating isn't impervious against a good player. I understand the general statements you made are actually in favor of not banning people from playlists due to rumour or one bad experience, but why ban at all if not then? Anyway, I don't want to pick you out exclusively since you generally hade a moderating tone on these boards and write with some sense, but mostly I was curious if there was a reason you never played me... As far as I know I think most people will still play me even if I am strong advocate of Hit&run.
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted July 19, 2001 06:48 AM |
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Ichon
The only reason i've not played you is that you've never asked  so there
I very rarely go to the zone anymore, and generally talk to people via ICQ or those already on my zone friends list, or my husbands (i can often be found on his name as i'm far too lazy to switch to my own)
The only people on my won't play list are those who i've played and have had bad experiences with - none are actually for tactics - but for their attitudes/foul language or dropping and not returning.
I'm not really one that you could call high ranked this season tho.. but likely soon i'll start making a run for that azure dragon to cap off season 3
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 08:35 AM |
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Ok, I will next time then
Well, I was thinking and realized I did get halfway through a game with you once I think. Allied game with you and someone else vs Green Dragon and I, back when I was only Lt I think in season 1? If I am wrong which is possible considering how long ago that way... I think we were play testing some new map. Anyway, I always seem to notice you are already in a game when I see you or your husband's name online.
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Darxion
Adventuring Hero
For The Honor......
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posted July 19, 2001 12:43 PM |
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*startled*
Woods: Yes, you misunderstood that part about rumors. Pandora was on the money, but you may wish to refrain from attack words in reference to my honor (or anyone else's, for that matter). Being newer to ToH doesn't make my views wrong or bad. <<If they are wrong, however, I will be the first to admit it!>> Thanks!
Pandora: I never judge a book by its cover, but you are so much prettier than that green ol' lady.....LOL. Thanks for the correction to Woods.
Shae: I agree about the FUN! When we lose sight of the game as something that should be enjoyed by both the winner AND the loser, we lose sight of the fact that it is a GAME! I play for enjoyment and fun, not to anger others (or have someone try to anger me). Oh, and one more thing, Go BLUE!
C_Hack: You, also, misinterpreted what I said. I believe H&R has a place in HOMM, but not in its current state with HOMM3. To be able to H&R without impunity (without penalty/loss) is not honorable, right, or realistic....AND, since HOMM is based on a fantasy world from the Middle Ages, shouldn't we apply some of the basic principles of honor that were upheld back in those days as opposed to looking at what the U.S. does with smart bombs, etc.?? I mean, if you want to play that, there are many modern era warfare games out there. Besides, again, it is for FUN.....NOT to anger others or become a deity in your own mind (ok, maybe it is the latter to some...LOL).
Rock on, play hard, and above all.....HAVE FUN!!!!
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Power of Might, Power of Magic!
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