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| Thread: Farwell Heroes 5........ |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 17, 2006 02:43 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 04:07, 17 Aug 2006.
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FIrst of all, the game I crushed you was on Neighbors Map. That is way way far far more balanced of a map the Dragon Pass...Especially in the artifact catagory.
And before you go off making me sound like I goofed and thats why I lost our last game... lets put it into perspective shall we  . If the map is balanced artifact wise...then it wouldnt matter if I let you roam for 16 years 4 months and 32 days...or what faction you were. You your self point out that I would have easily beaten you if not for your 24 spell power. So essentially the game was decided, not by anyones skill or lack there of.... but because of poor map design. I.E. because of the retarded Instant Travel spell...you chose to level up uber fast...jump the 40 Dragons that are only there to look pretty...and get a Pack of Arch Angels to join you, then go on a massive artifact collecting spree in middle of map. The fact that you lucked out and found the right resources to level up your guild faster then opponent to get Instant Travel...isnt Amazing skill...its roll the dice.
Bottom line...anytime a player says "You woulda easily won if not for xxxxxxx" Then you know the map/game was unbalanced and 1 sided.
And yes Karim, I did also enjoy our games... but 2 of the 3 games I was beaten by the map. To bad there isnt an option on TOH loss report page to report loss to Map 
Map Editor is a must. Maybe there will be hope then.
Either that or will have to start making a list of player rules to agree on to beable to make for a balanced end game.
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2006 04:08 AM |
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So there is going to be a map editor coming for this game?? will it be an add on disk to the original game? or a patch that should have come with the game? just wondering.
le fey
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Angelspit
Famous Hero
Warrior of the Heavens
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posted August 17, 2006 04:19 AM |
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The editor will be free to download, and not part of an expansion.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted August 17, 2006 08:10 AM |
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and to make a point about instant travel -- it requires a relatively high level hero, so its not so 'easy' to get. Let alone the fact that it is tremendously expensive movement-wise.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 17, 2006 02:52 PM |
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Quote:
...Bottom line...anytime a player says "You woulda easily won if not for xxxxxxx" Then you know the map/game was unbalanced and 1 sided....
Any fixed map who has "random artefacts" or "random monsters" set is unbalanced since Heroes3.
One gets shooters as mine guards, while the other gets undeads....
Not to mention a simple utopia. Everyone has 1 utopia on his side. One gets a full, while the other one gets 1 black.
Refugee camp.....i gets an Archangel, while the other gets 4 golems. These are things which will never change in Heroes games i suppose, as long as all things are not pre-set in detail. Is there any fixed map (Heroes3), where u don't have stuff like mentioned above? (I don't know too many of them, that's why i ask...)
More than half of all games are decided before the endfight happens, this is nothing new....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 17, 2006 05:04 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 17:12, 17 Aug 2006.
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Indeed that is true...but that is only true when map is not properly made. I took pride in making maps in Heroes 3 and Heroes 4....however my maps werent the most popular because since they were SO balanced...players had hard time finding a way to gain that 1 sided advantage for final battle that they didnt want to play it.
I dont mind a map having a reward in center if its a closed break to middle map... but the reward should be not overwhelming. I.E give and extra artifact or maybe 2 etc and thats it. Then they can break on over to your area and kill you. But breaking to middle early and fast should come at a COST to the numbers of you army. Simply buying guild and jumping to middle is just silly. And then to reward that wil 2 Utopias available and a dozen artifacts = extreme unbalance. Sure both players have option to rush middle. But due to factors like shooters on mines...loose resources being all wood instead of that stack of gems you needed, having that ultimate super strong making middle to the first one there just ruins games.
The more I think about it, the key at this point is just avoid certain maps and input some player agreed rules to take up the slack and balance the game where the maps fail.
Maybe upgrade my status from retired to " Life support " bearly clinging on to hope.... we shall see.
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted August 17, 2006 07:16 PM |
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Quote:
Indeed that is true...but that is only true when map is not properly made. I took pride in making maps in Heroes 3 and Heroes 4....however my maps werent the most popular because since they were SO balanced...players had hard time finding a way to gain that 1 sided advantage for final battle that they didnt want to play it.
I'm pretty sure that wasn't the reason they weren't the most popular But.. in general people prefer fun maps that are balanced, but not overly balanced to where the game plays out the same everytime. I think that is why Hourglass was so popular.. sure there were tons of unbalanced things on it, but there were so many unbalanced things that both players took their slight advantage in a certain area into the final battle and played it out.
I just think the key to a "balanced" map is taking out automatic win scenarios.. I dont mind if my opponent is lucky, but if I still have a chance to beat them it makes it even more fun.
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I will not lose.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted August 17, 2006 08:14 PM |
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Does anyone want an actual perfect mirror image map for two players? I don't. If both sides get exactly the same thing, down to units, guardians & arfifacts, you might as well go to sleep from boredom. Even then someone will complain that the other had a better hero whaa whaa lol.
If you want perfect mirror image gaming, there is only one game that will give you this: CHESS.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted August 17, 2006 08:27 PM |
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Couldn't have said it better Ves...that's why i prefer RANDOM maps over fixed maps. There are unbalanced things aswell....many....but on both sides...u will find 3 utopias maybe....10 random arties...5 refugees.....so the chance, all the UNBALANCE will finally equal out is much higher.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 17, 2006 08:44 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 23:05, 17 Aug 2006.
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Noone is saying perfect mirror image..
Balanced means equal...not the same.
It is possible to have maps that are balanced yet not have the option for 1 player to beable to gain that overwhelming advantage that makes him unbeatable.
IN Heroes 3 peoples main goal was to define players skills by how they memorized the map and how fast they could then run it. So the way the maps were designed, was to pile Boat Load of artifacts and utopias in middle and race to get them. Most generally one person got there first and got at the very least majority of stuff become super unbalanced powerful then the FINAL BATTLE was inconsequential. So hours and hours of game play and games were determined by how fast you ran thru a memorized pattern. Player to player battle at end meant nothing toward skill of players because by that time, one player has 30 spell power and Implosion or 30 attack and mass haste...and wipes you out before you can give a fair fight.. So where as the main starting areas of players were well balanced, the middle was the game winner. So ultimately when maps are made like this, you arent playing agaisnt an opponent you are trying to beat the map...and if you succeed in beating map better then other player, you conquer the map.
I say if player feels need to rush map fast...then thats fine. At best he should get only the balanced amount of goodies then come kill me before my slow A $ $ gets all mine. Sure I would be weaker, but the BALANCE of him coming early vs. me not having as much done BALANCES out somewhat to make for a feasible battle.
p.s. Future debate on H5 regressing back to Hit & Run. Yet another severely unbalanced attribute of game that was corrected in H4.
So in a live battle out in the field..they can just shoot at there opponent then throw a 20 dollar bill on ground and POOF show up back in there castle safe and sound un harmed? If you are roaming out in the fields away from home and only have a few creatures on you and your enemy attacks you...you get slaughtered! Moral of the story dont venture to far from home without your army to back you up. Hit and Run is unrealistic and a cowardly dirty tactic
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted August 17, 2006 11:36 PM |
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off topic, but I'm still confused about this with homm5 -- if you put a sole fast unit on your hero will the hero go faster than if it has a slow unit, (like in homm3) or has that been negated?
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jrholdt
Hired Hero
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posted August 18, 2006 12:33 AM |
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Quote:
off topic, but I'm still confused about this with homm5 -- if you put a sole fast unit on your hero will the hero go faster than if it has a slow unit, (like in homm3) or has that been negated?
i checked on this myself allready a while ago cause didn't like the way it was with h3 at all. any way movement has nothing at all to do with creatures. stables, artifacts and logistics are the only ways to increace movement.
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karim26
Known Hero
Land of Snowfall & Sunshine
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posted August 18, 2006 02:02 AM |
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about the hit and run...
well.....
if your looking to be a "real" strategist and a great "general", i suggest you stop your whining right here, right now
Wouldn't real life wars be great if generals of opposing armies could sit down right before a war and make rules with one another......
If you consider yourself to be a great strategist and planner, then you should be able to counter ANY strategy, be it dirty of clean.
I welcome any hit and runners to play me, and you better bet that youll get your money's worth. I am able to ADAPT to any type of player; and that my friends, is a true strategist. (i not saying im the best, im just saying that i can plan and prepare).
For example, if you see that I am running clearing stuff with just a few troops and a high level power-caster, then it is in your best interest to not fight me. If you do choose to attack, face the consequences; not my fault my hero has 25 spellpower. Also, if you see that I am running with just a few troops, why dont you just keep a scout near your main army, and transfer all your valuable troops to the scout, and lets fight hit&run VS. hit&run.
I will not play players who make up 100 rules before the game, as this leads to a disarray of problems. How would one define a hit&run exaclty? There is no perfect definition for it.
Simple, yes....very simple solution for hit&runs, put the shackles near town day 1.
Btw, may this message not be taken personal; cause im sure that many players will be faced by this.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 18, 2006 05:02 AM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 22:20, 18 Aug 2006.
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Indeed your post was meant to be as personally attacking as possible...and was taken as such.
I am stepping aside. Play the game as crazy as you wish. Doesnt matter to me any longer. Good ol' days are over never to return.
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Rion
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 18, 2006 07:01 AM |
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Hey Karim?
Why dont you say that your better then jinxer.
While your at it, why dont you say that he sucks too.
Basically what you are saying.
Stop your bragging.
Your making your underwear bunch up again.
Maybe if you stand up for one minute, your underwear will reset itself and it wont be all wedgied in there.
By the way Karim?
I liked your picture on the TOH page.
WHo is the dude on the picture?
He looked like he was acting his age?
If I was going to talk crap to someone, I would say it straight up.
You just run around making examples when you should of just spoke your mind.
This is what you should of wrote.
Hey Jinxer, you suck bro.
You know i would play with no rules.
I allow hit and run because I got strategy.
You got no strategy Jinxer.
You just whine on every little problem.
You need to learn how to play man.(You Suck)
I can beat you easily dude.
YOU SUCK AT HEROES 5.
Be straight up like that Karim because you might as well of said it like that.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 18, 2006 10:17 AM |
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Funny post Rion ) ...
And now about the Heroes 5 leaving issue. It is not the time to do that! The game is at its first steps, and many things might seem wrong, but it is also clear that there is strategic potential in the game. Hit and Run tactics should be part of the game, since they were actually used in reality also! This is just a way to weaken your opponent... Anyway they are not as deadly as they used to be in H3, and this is a good thing!
Anyway, remember the retreat/rehire times of Heroes 3? It was much worse than right now!!! So stick with the game, learn how to play it and then you'll have tons of fun when the editor comes out !
Btw have you tried Subterranean Treasures ?! It seems to me like a well balanced semi-closed map, except for the red unguarded stuff .
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karim26
Known Hero
Land of Snowfall & Sunshine
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posted August 18, 2006 06:59 PM |
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Rion....who are you?
I said it like that because I know Jinxer is a tough guy He can take some, so can I if it's coming from him.
But you, who are you?
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted August 19, 2006 01:47 AM |
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geez this post is a watse o memory on some server somewhere
if you don't like a game so much then don't play it. for all your problems with the game Jinxer you sure are typing enough stuff about it. i think you actually like the game a lot or why waste so much effort typing about it eh? pardon my canuck speak. you been making these crazy posts and stuff jinxer since TOH started. on second thought, keep ranting and raving jinxer ole buddy, it just wouldn't be TOH without you complaining about HOMM whatever version we're playing at the time
ps. if you truly think a game is great then you shouldn't need to defend it. the enjoyment you get out of it should be enough. I have been nothing but impressed with this version of HOMM, it's by my favorite of the series so far. nuff said
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OK!! So i cann't spell well! So shoot me!!
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted August 19, 2006 08:14 AM |
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You are absolutely right MKL... I am done. No more rants or debates from this camp. 299 games reported since its release... I dont think I will be missing the next revolution in gaming history here by leaving. And as usual its good to see people who dont even play in the tournament on here putting there 2 cents in. Zero games played for MKL. Typical...
I am out. Good luck all.
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Rion
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 19, 2006 09:02 AM |
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For one MKL you know what this thread is about.
Why in the world do you even read it if you are complaining about memories.
It seems to me that you are a whiner also.
Excuse my American eh.
Oh wait? It might be Canadian.
Fot so many years i never expected the great MKL to have a big mouth that whines.
Just like Karim who basically said he is better then Jinxer.
Why is it that Karim never beat me?
MKL why dont you just tell Jinxer to leave.
Basically what you two are doing.
What a guy you are MKL and I thought you were the goody Two Shoes.
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