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| Thread: The Nomad Camp - alternative city idea to Sylath worshippers of Ranaar |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 07, 2006 04:39 PM |
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The Nomad Camp - alternative city idea to Sylath worshippers of Ranaar
Background
Watcher83 proposed a town of the Free Eastern Cities with a people who worshipped Sylath, the Dragon of Air (topic here). I had some objections, and we talked a bit back and forth. Well, here's my idea of a slightly alternative line-up with a range of different features. Some of these I think could make this faction quite unique - and many of them still need development - so feel free to give me input.
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Post contents moved to post #12 on Edit!
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 07, 2006 06:05 PM |
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Here is a short draft of some of my nomad creature lineup...
Creatures:
(* means ability for upgraded)
Lv1. Nomad / Raider
(Stride, Strike and Return*, Large Creature)
Lv2. Falconer / Falcon Hunter
(Shooter, Unlimited Shots, Steel Claw*)
Lv3. Centaur / Centaur Mustang
(Large Creature, No Enemy Retaliation, Jousting*)
Lv4. Buffalo Trampler / White Buffalo Trampler
(Large Creature, Stampede, Immune to Slow, Trampling Charge*, Bravery*)
Lv5. Shaman / Curandero
(Caster, Shape Shift, Shooter*, Aura of Magic Resistance*)
Lv6. Braves / War Chief
(Large Creature, Stride, Shooter, Strike and Return, No Enemy Retaliation, Bravery, Double Attack*)
Lv7. Thunder Bird / Lighting Hawk
(Large Creature, Flyer, Immunity to Lighting, Lighting Shield, Chain Lighting*)
The few other that could, but just didn?ft make into the list?c
-Trailblazer
-Pegasus
-White Dragon
Racial Ablity: Totem
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 07, 2006 06:42 PM |
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You should probably post this as a different post, as you offer a complete alternative line-up to what I propose. You may let it be, but it'll probably be more helpfull to both of us in terms of feedback if they are separated.
But to give you a few brief comments. We obviously follow some of the same lines of thought. I think the shape-shifter thing has merit - especially if it lets the creature change between something very mobile (hawk: Fast and flying, but vulnerable), something tough (bear: Great HP, but slow), and something danaging (Wolf: Great damage). Such a unit would certainly add a huge amount of tactics to the gameplay!
I'm not sure I see the Centaur in this line-up, because I will tend to follow the H5 tendency and not mix the races (notice: A race can ally with Animals and Beasts, but the Races generally don't mix (exception: Humans and Angels)), and while the Centaurs are not really a humanoid race in line with Humans, Elfs, Dwarfs and Orcs, they are still somewhere in between. The Centaur might even form a town of their own.
The Totem idea is interesting also, but it's hard for me to say whether it'll overlap too much with the Runes of the Dwarves.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 07, 2006 07:03 PM |
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Quote:
You should probably post this as a different post, as you offer a complete alternative line-up to what I propose. You may let it be, but it'll probably be more helpfull to both of us in terms of feedback if they are separated.
But to give you a few brief comments. We obviously follow some of the same lines of thought. I think the shape-shifter thing has merit - especially if it lets the creature change between something very mobile (hawk: Fast and flying, but vulnerable), something tough (bear: Great HP, but slow), and something danaging (Wolf: Great damage). Such a unit would certainly add a huge amount of tactics to the gameplay!
I'm not sure I see the Centaur in this line-up, because I will tend to follow the H5 tendency and not mix the races (notice: A race can ally with Animals and Beasts, but the Races generally don't mix (exception: Humans and Angels)), and while the Centaurs are not really a humanoid race in line with Humans, Elfs, Dwarfs and Orcs, they are still somewhere in between. The Centaur might even form a town of their own.
The Totem idea is interesting also, but it's hard for me to say whether it'll overlap too much with the Runes of the Dwarves.
I will reduce my stuff... not sure where to put it (since don't want to start another thread...) Maybe I will repost it back if this thread reach page 3 or 4 level....
Isn't Runes of Dwarves add on to just the creatures, and not as a object ont he battle field? I think its interesting as a object, as you could use it to creat obsticles and walls, as well as give area effects (and since it is more about movements, it add on some strategies)
I am a bit torn with the Centaurs too... but I see them more as a nomadic tribe too (instead of a whole civilization), who are ally to the Nomadic people, thus I have it.
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On commenting the OP...
Breaking camp sound interesting... but still uncertain of how well would its acutal use be.
I think the Stealth ablity could be improve on... maybe name it as Tracking, which could help increase movement speed, detection, and other first strike advantage.
(or maybe renmae it Ambush, where a hero will be immobile for the turn, and be hidden from all eyes... Also if they attack from this hidden status, they would gain a first strike ablity. (all creature gain 1 extra turn) something like that)
-I like trailfinder's ablity
-For scalap, how about will add 1 moral boost that turn for all your creatures.
-Ride by attack is good too
-Gorgon, with its gas cloud attack, just seem a bit out of place for me. They seem better fitted as a dungeon monster. And arn't gorgon sisters of Medusa?
-Mithril Dragon need additonal ablity... maybe something like Crystal breath or something...
Overall, seem pretty balance... but would hope to see more outstanding characteristic of the army than being balance like other factions. (more appearent strong point and weakness)
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted October 07, 2006 07:53 PM |
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Hmmm rather odd thread but still its got a differnt aproch to this town, its good but i think there are already far to meny human fractions (Evles and Dwarves included). but still good effert
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Sindbad
Famous Hero
The lost soul
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posted October 07, 2006 08:17 PM |
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Nomads and Indians? In what dimension do you live?
But quite good proposal, just that lots of things dont make sense to me...
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Already gone...
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted October 07, 2006 08:33 PM |
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I adore your town idea!
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2006 09:49 PM |
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While I don't know what Sinbad is talking about, there where lots of nomadic native american tribes.
I also agree that there are too many human factions already. It's a shame becuase I'd like to see a town like this.
I also feel like Pegasus should be a staple to a Air Dragon town. But then again thats just my opinion, goes better with you Mithrill dragon with magic mirror anyways.
I like the tracking ability, however it may only be useful on paper. I'm not quiet sure being able to see/hide your army trail is that handy. Persnally I just look for a colored dot on the mini map and click on itBut, stealth is pretty good.
What are the benefits to being able to move your camp? I'm not real posotive on this.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 08, 2006 05:10 AM |
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Hmmm ... as you noticed, the tricky thing is I still need something to really make you wanna move that camp! Sure, it can be handy sometimes, to move it to a more strategic location, or move it closer to home, or whatever - but I need that special thing to make it really worth the while.
As I said, I thought about making some incentive linked to creature growth. Like, if you had your camp for too long in the same area, there wouldn't be enough food to feed your people, and growth rates would start to decline. That might actually work, but the tricky thing would be to ballance it - you would need to have a higher than normal maximum growth, in order to make things average out and stay ballanced when you include the weeks where you are moving your camp and rebuilding it. I think it would make great sense in terms of the overall nature of the town and it's setting, but to fix the actual numbers are critical (should max growth be 1.5 times standard growth, or 2 times standard growth, or something third - and how long time should ellapse before creature growth started to decline?).
Another idea would be to make growth rates depend on terrain on which the city was located - for example, large growth rates on Grass and low rates on Snow and Lava - however, that would possibly be skewed on some maps, and would probably not could be implemented in a reasonable way. The first thought I think might work - but I would like input to see how you guys see it.
Oh, and btw. I really don't understand you think there are "so many human factions". What do we have this far: Haven - Human. Sylvan, Dungeon - Elven. Necropolis, Inferno - Human Heroes, but not Human in unit line-up. Academy - again, a Human hero, and the mage is Human, but not really a Human city as I see it, but rather a town of magicians and constructs (race independant). Fortress - Dwarven. Stronghold - Orc. Sanctuary - Naga. And then Camp - Human. That's two Human towns, and not that bad imo.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 08, 2006 05:54 AM |
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Well, if you consider this breaking camp idea, then the buildings will have to be really cheap, and you have to allow the buildings to be built faster. Otherwise, during break camp, without town income and creature growth, it will be going to get tough for the nomads.
But being too easy on building and accelerated creature growth, it will allow nomads to give early rushes. This will cause serious balancing issues.
Perhaps as an additional racial ability, with basic stealth, you can build 2 buildings that you have experience building/per day. And skill increases with expertise.
In addition, whenever you break camp, there will be sentinels that will help defend the camp. The sentinels are powerful creatures but will only stay with the camp. Start with perhaps 5 sentinels (or so), and for each sentinels surviving till the next camping, the new camp will recieve certain (starting?) bonus on creature growth, and resources. A camp on the move will not be allowed to attack, or may only attack with heroes currently in the camp with his existing units during break camp.
I feel that the stealth ability should increase an additional combat bonus. Perhaps the creatures can deal additional damage on familiar grounds?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 08, 2006 06:03 AM |
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I don't know whether you noticed, but when you break camp, you will recover up to 75 % of the resources used on building the dwellings, and it also sais that for the purpose of rebuilding, as long as you use these resources that is brought with the traveling camp, you will build at double speed.
As for Stealth, it might be changed, to give the units +1 speed (and possibly other bonuses?) on familiar terrain, and there might be something like the Avengers Guild in the town, that allows you Hero to select one Familiar Terrain for each level of Stealth (just like the Ranger selects favored enemies).
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 08, 2006 12:01 PM |
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I admit I was reading everything in a rush, so I may have probably missed out certain things. I had to skip the entire section on the creatures too.
When you mentioned building resources, I thought you refered to the standard wood/ ore/ gems etc. Anyway the ideas are similar, but I'd hope that a nomad will be able to rebuild his camp faster as he progresses. If he tears down his camp on the 2nd month (for example), even rebuilding at twice the usual rate will mean that he will be very much behind time.
The sentinels, as such should act like the castle towers, and compensates the fact that you do not have the usual moat, castle wall, castle towers and the extra battlefield space for buffer. And to compensate for the lost time on the move, the sentinels can provide bonus to growth?
And for the motivation to move? Agreed that this is a tough one. I'll see if I can contribute in any ways.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 11, 2006 08:28 PM |
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Update - Revised Form
Ok, I have considered your comments, which I think had much merit. The challenge was to come up with a system that would include the thoughts I listed in the original post, but to change it to make the "Move Camp" feature and important part of game. What I came up with is indicated in the following - I would be greatly pleased if you would read it and give me feedback, cause I think this idea is very interesting. I don't know whether it would actually work, but it's quite innovative, I think. The new parts are marked with *new*.
Updates on the skill part might come later.
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History
The Camp is the home of the Nomadic tribal people occupying the great plains of Ranaar in the north-eastern part of Ashan, the Ranaari. These people split from the humans of the Griffin Empire when the Empire got allied with the Angels and turned from worshipping Sylath, the Dragon of Air, to Elrath, the Dragon of Light. Whereas the society of the Empire developed into a feudal society, the people of Ranaar still live as a tribal people, moving around the plains without ever settling in the same place for long. This way of living reflects the spirit of the people of Ranaar, who don’t stand the confinement of an Empire city for long, but also reflects a natural adaptation to the rough and sometimes even hostile environment of the open plain lands.
On the plains live fierce creatures with little love for the human interaction with their freedom, and settling down on the plains was tough for the Ranaari – however, an unexpected aid came to the people of Ranaar in the form of the Silver Dragons and their more powerful siblings, the Mithrill Dragons, who dwell in the mountains on the southern borders of the plains. The Dragons, the ‘children’ of the Sylath, rewarded the humans for their faithfulness to the Dragon of Air by forming an alliance, that would show all important for the humans in gaining their own place on the plains. Through their relation to the Dragons, the Ranaari gained the respect and aid of the mighty Thunderbirds, who hunt in the skies above the plains, standing unrivalled in the rule of the skies except for the majestic Dragons. Also with the aid of the Dragons, the Ranaari made the fearsome Gorgons, who live in hordes on the plains, their subjugates.
The Ranaari have no wish to mingle with other people, but will stand up for their territory – and are aware of the ever impending threat of their lands being target to expansion plans, not only from their Imperialistic cousins of the Griffin Empire, but also from the swelling hordes of the Orcs inhabiting the dessert plateau above the mountains separating the Empire from Ranaar.
The Camp
The Camp is where the Nomads make their home – for a while. The Camp will eventually break up and move for a more favourable position, depending on season, weather, water conditions, herd conditions or something else.
Breaking Camp: The Nomads can anytime choose to break up their camp and move it to another location they might find more favourable. Breaking camp can be done in a rush, which will cause a lot of resources to be left behind, or can take longer time, causing the salvation of most material. There will always be left some materials behind, however. Breaking Camp can be done as:
1 day: 25 % salvage of building ressources.
2 days: 50 % salvage of building ressources.
3 days: 75 % salvage of building ressources.
When the Camp moves, it acts like a normal army, but moves with only half speed. Any army including Heroes present in the Camp at break up can move with the Camp and defend it against attack. Resources from building demolishment is brought with the camp, and if a Camp is attacked and destroyed during movement, these resources will go to the conquering army as spoils of war.
The Camp can take place anywhere on the map where there’s place for it – the Camp has to be at least 20 squares from another city, however. When a new camp is formed, rebuilding of structures is quicker when resources brought with the camp is used. As long as resources for the structure is present in the camp, there can therefore be made two new buildings each day.
Decreasing Growth Rates - *new*
The Tribal Ranaari are not farmers like their cousins of the Griffin Empire - rather, they depend on the ressources, that nature can provide around their camp. Generally, Camping in an area will exhaust the surroundings of ressources as time goes and the Camp increases in size. In the end, there will no longer be ressources in the area to feed a growing population, and the camp should move on.
In game, this means that weekly growth rates decrease with the number of weeks the camp has existed. In the first weeks after the camp formed, growth rates will be higher than average, but will steadily decline as time goes by. After some time, the Camp should consider to break up and move along to prevent the population from becomming stagnant. The rates with which the Growth Rate decreases depends on the nature of the terrain on which the camp is located - generally, lands rich in crops like grassland will sustain the camp for long time, whereas barren regions like Desert and Snowlands only will sustain the camp for a short time. A camp located in barren terrain should therefore consider to move along quickly and settle in more fertile regions.
Terrain Depending Growth Rates - *new*
As mentioned above, the Camp will thrive best in fertile lands. The following tables show how Growth Rates of the Camp creatures changes with time:
Notice how initial Growth Rate in each setting is the same, but how growth decreases much faster in barren terrains. Effectively, this meens that in Desserts, the camp should consider moving along after some 4-5 weeks, in more intermediate terrains, the camp should move along after 6-7 weeks, whereas the camp can stay for 8-9 weeks in the Grasslands before moving along. Generally, an early move will meen a boost in number of creatures on the lower level, but will pay off with a lower number of high-level creatures (because they generally will not be built before week 2 or 3) and higher ressource consumption.
Total creature generation, however, will be almost the same on all terrains, if the camp is moved at the right time. Slightly higher growth rates will be accomplished on Grassland, but a 1-year average on the different terrains yield the following numbers for Trailfinders:
Ballance: 40
Grassland: 43
Snowland: 39
The number labelled "ballance" is the "traditional" growth rate - i.e. the rate it should have to match other cities for ballance. The end number is pretty much the same, but living in snow will take more ressources and more frequent moving, so living in Grassland is generally more attractive.
Town Defences - *new*
I forgot this one last time. The Camp should only have very week city walls (fence) to reflect it's non-permanent status. Also, Towers should probably be limited. However, Heroes should have possibility of retreating from combat in the camp (like Heroes 3 escape tunnel).
The Nomad
Attack: 2
Defence: 1
Spellpower: 1
Knowledge: 1
Class Skill: Stealth
Basic Stealth: Army trail reduced by 25 %. See enemy trails as if army 25 % larger. Hide* 1 low-level (level 1-2) creature stack.
Advanced Stealth: Army trail reduced by 50 %. See enemy trails as if army 50 % larger. Hide* 1 low-level and 1 mid-level (3-4) stack.
Expert Stealth: Army trail reduced by 75 %. See enemy trails as if army 75 % larger. Hide* 1 mid-level and 1 high-level (5-6) stack.
Ultimate Stealth: No army trail. See enemy trails as if army 100 % larger. Hide* 1 high-level and one top-level (7) stack.
* Enemy Heroes without scouting will only see an empty slot when evaluating hero. Heroes with Scouting will see a “?” in slot to let them know a creature is present, but will not tell them how many or what type.
Class Abilities:
Trail Master: Reduce movement penalty of Rough Terrain by 25 % (stacks with Pathfinding). Get information on enemy army composition and general size from Army trails.
Evaluate enemy: Get exact numbers of enemy army size. Will also see hidden creatures.
Know territory: Each time a battle is fought on foreign territory, there’s a 5 % chance each stack in Hero’s army will be familiar with this territory, and respond to it as home territory. This will make the Familiar Ground bonus (Logistics ability) apply to this terrain as well.
(Ultimate Ability): ?
Magic: Summoning Magic and Destructive Magic.
Units
Level 1: Reconnoitrer / Trailfinder
Level 2: Warrior / Spearman
Level 3: Raindancer / Rainmaster
Level 4: Chief / Clan Chief
Level 5: Roc / Thunderbird
Level 6: Gorgon / Mighty Gorgon
Level 7: Silver Dragon / Mithrill Dragon
Sample units:
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2006 03:21 AM |
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So you don't like the idea of having sentinels when the camp is on the move? I tried to add this feature as a moving camp is virtually defenceless, especially when they move at half the speed, they cannot run away from enemy heroes either.
Do you think you should include the growth rates for thunderbird, mighty gorgon and mithril dragons for week 1 and 2 as well? In standard maps these are not required, but you should not neglect map builders (or some campaign games) where you get the entire building structure built.
And since you previously noted that there are certain terrains (snowland or desert) where the growth drops too fast, perhaps you can add some small bonus (perhaps defending heroes get +2 to attack and defence on such terrains)? Its a battle for survival afterall.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 12, 2006 06:01 AM |
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I found myself still haveing difficulties in fully agree with the Breaking Camp concept. Just seem too limited to the map, where in some case might be too overbalancing powerful, while useless in other.
One adaption I am thinking of goes something like so...
Camp heroes have a adventure map special ablity call "Camp". When camp, they will become immobile until they decide to break camp. When camping, depend on the terrain type, Heroes level, and how far apart they are from the main/other camps, it would help increase the growth rate of certain units in the main town.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 12, 2006 07:34 AM |
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Quote:
So you don't like the idea of having sentinels when the camp is on the move? I tried to add this feature as a moving camp is virtually defenceless, especially when they move at half the speed, they cannot run away from enemy heroes either.
The Camp is not defenceless. You can have a Hero and his army move with the Camp, and these units will defend the Camp on attack. In fact, one might even implement some sort of field defences for the Nomad army when he moves with the Camp.
Quote:
Do you think you should include the growth rates for thunderbird, mighty gorgon and mithril dragons for week 1 and 2 as well? In standard maps these are not required, but you should not neglect map builders (or some campaign games) where you get the entire building structure built.
Well the Growth Rates for these creatures in the first weeks should be the same as for week 3. However, due to Town Level constraints, you will rarely get to build these structures in first and second week, respectively (Thunderbird and Gorgon should require Town Level 12 and Dragons Level 15). Of course, with the double growth rate of recycled ressources, it will theoretically be possible to build some of them very early, but I think that generally they will come a bit later as indicated.
Quote:
And since you previously noted that there are certain terrains (snowland or desert) where the growth drops too fast, perhaps you can add some small bonus (perhaps defending heroes get +2 to attack and defence on such terrains)? Its a battle for survival afterall.
I actually think the Player would be able to survive on any terrain - or he should be. I will, however, modify the skill to Grant the hero Familiarity with a number of different teraines depending on level, which will grant the units movement and/or attack/defence bonuses on this terraine. I will update skill system later.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 12, 2006 07:40 AM |
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Quote:
I found myself still haveing difficulties in fully agree with the Breaking Camp concept. Just seem too limited to the map, where in some case might be too overbalancing powerful, while useless in other.
It IS very much limited to the map, yes, but I personally have no problem with that. I think it makes sense in terms of the town theme, and I think it will make a very unique town. And actually, I don't think it'll be particularly overpowered - I made some fairly thorough calculations on this, and as far as I can see, the total unit outcome will not change too much, if you play the town correctly - the Breaking Camp feature is just something that's necessary as a part of the game to survive.
Quote:
One adaption I am thinking of goes something like so...
Camp heroes have a adventure map special ablity call "Camp". When camp, they will become immobile until they decide to break camp. When camping, depend on the terrain type, Heroes level, and how far apart they are from the main/other camps, it would help increase the growth rate of certain units in the main town.
That's a bit similar to the Heroes IV nobility skill (which I liked btw). It could probably work, even though I think it could be a bit disrupting for gameplay that you had to have your main hero stagnant in order to get the benefits (how long should he camp, and only on day 7 or on any day?).
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 12, 2006 09:11 AM |
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Actually, when I mean defenceless, I refer to the absence of the town walls, moats and towers. The camp, afterall, is the "castle" for the nomads. That's why I suggested having sentinels as field defences for the nomads, each having the strength (or slightly stronger) than the castle towers.
As for the growth rate, week 1 is calculated on the first week which the nomad settled on the terrain? Given his unique ability for rebuilding, he can, theoretically, build the tier 7 dwelling within 1 week?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 12, 2006 04:02 PM |
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As for the deffence of the camp - yes, the camp is vulnerable when it moves. It might make sense to have some sort of pallisades around the army if they get attacked, but generally, as I said, I don't think this town should have the same level of town deffences as regular towns - after all, it's not a permanent settlement. Of course, that's gonna be a disadvantage, but they could have some other special buildings to make up for it.
_
As for the creature growth, this city cannot build level 7 creatures in week 1. In the beginning, they build at normal speed, 1 structure each day. However, when they take the camp down, they'll bring some ressources with them (up to 75 %), and using these ressources, they can build at 2 structures per day. However, even at maximum building speed, if you settle on day 1, you will maximally have reached town level 11 on day 7, which will inhibit you from building Thunderbirds, Gorgons and Dragons (required level 12, 12, and 15 respectively).
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 13, 2006 03:42 AM |
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minor problem I am thinking of...
The growth rate chart seem a bit strange... as it is uncertain when you will build the creature production building. The week period should be depended to when you build that production building, and not to the universal calendar. Also why does it decrease?
One part of where it might be not very useful (unless I am reading it wrong) is that you can not build town structures while on the move (right?) If so, it would very limited its use on earlier stage of a vs. game.
Also it would be good in a randomly generated map, but if it is a user/dev-made map, this function seem less balance. Also since the terrain change seem less frequent (usually a whole map is in one theme), that you would have to move a long distance before the terrain would change, that also cuts down the feastiblity of moving, espcially on a smaller map.
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