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| Thread: ULTIMATE PLAYER vs. DISRESPECT ?! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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karim26
Known Hero
Land of Snowfall & Sunshine
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posted November 15, 2006 08:13 PM |
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yep, I like Arangar s theory.
Surrender or retreat only on heroes turn. Now that would make everyone happy, inluding Jinxer I hope.
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Betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted November 15, 2006 08:25 PM |
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Blood Furies are always going to go first before all other things. So the 130 furies can make a strike then surrender before I can do anything about it...
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Lol, guess how much money you'll get from your opponent if he does that!! He'd have to pay you, like 10k in gold to surrender just 130 furies, and if he has more army "hidden" (i.e. he did not put them on battlefield) he'd have to pay you more!
Not to mention he has to buy the hero from tavern, and he's back at his town (sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not).
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OR he can just come at me with 7 single furies and no way I can take out all of his stacks before his Hero gets to act and Magics me then surrenders...
??? No way? What about armageddon if you are a magic user, or holy word, if you are haven/sylvan? or chain lighting along with 3 stacks of your own shooters with initiative 10+ . Or meteor shower? It doesn't matter when furies move, it matters when opponent hero does. And heroes do have initiative of 10, so he'd risk everything trying to do such tactic.
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Hit and run is NOT a good tactic....it is a way to exploit the game to beable to steal a win/game from an otehrwise unwinnable game.
I completly disagree. Hit n run has it pros and cons, but it's a normal viable strategy. It was an exploit in H3 due to the fact, that you needed just 1 dragonfly or phoenix to be sure that it'd work.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to "steal" an unwinnable game.If you succeed, that means it wasn't really unwinnable 
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If you cannot win the game straight up without hit and run.....then that means ...either you were outplayed by your opponent,or you played bad enough during game that you deserve to lose....
Haha right deserve to loose, good one. Maybe you are the one to deserve to loose if you can't counter that simple tactic. If someone enters a combat with you having only 7 furies, you should have no prob with winning.
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People can and will play how they wish...but as always for last 7 years of me being in TOH. Anyone who wwants to use Hit and run to exploit the game, gets to join my Dont play list.
Ok. Signing up
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sq79 did in the end show some integrity and accept the loss and quit hit and running me, and report his loss.
I'm sorry to hear that. I think it's not right
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted November 15, 2006 08:40 PM |
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@sq79
First of all I was not referring to you directly in my post. My post was more of a generalization.
However since we are now on that subject... I will feel free to comment......
Betruger claims that Heroes initiative is only 10 so hero acts later in battle so hit and run isnt as effective...... that would be correct statment IF IF it wasnt possible to surrender until it became the heroes turn. But you can surrender at any point. So when someone in general comes at you with 130 Bloodfuries and 6 single stacks...explain how random starting order matters? Blood Furies are always going to go first before all other things. So the 130 furies can make a strike then surrender before I can do anything about it....OR he can just come at me with 7 single furies and no way I can take out all of his stacks before his Hero gets to act and Magics me then surrenders... Doesnt cost that much to pay to surrender 7 furies while you leave all your army untouchably safe in cozy town.
Hit and run is NOT a good tactic....it is a way to exploit the game to beable to steal a win/game from an otehrwise unwinnable game. Nothing anyone can say can convince me that 10 hours of hard fought strategic thinking and planning and building in a game...outplaying my opponent....only to lose soley because they have 7 Blood Furies?? Same old debate that has been going on since H3. If you cannot win the game straight up without hit and run.....then that means ...either you were outplayed by your opponent,or you played bad enough during game that you deserve to lose....
**** Look at it from this angle.. Do you think it is realistic for 1 Sprite to beable to beat 1,000,000,000 stone golems? That is same thing with hit and run. A substantially weaker inferior army is given a loophole to beable to beat and or win a game that they dont deserve to win or shouldnt beable to win. Just because the game has a loophole that allows 1 Sprite to beable to beat 6 Billion Golems or Hydras or inifinite number of super slow creatures doesnt make it realistic or a good tactic. Its exploiting a bad design feature in the game. The example I just gave is EXACTLY same priciple that hit and run employs. ***************
People can and will play how they wish...but as always for last 7 years of me being in TOH. Anyone who wwants to use Hit and run to exploit the game, gets to join my Dont play list.
on a side note:: for the record sq79 did in the end show some integrity and accept the loss and quit hit and running me, and report his loss.
In the first place, i did not attack u, u attacked me and caught me unaware, so i did not hit and run!
i took the chance to cast one pathetic spell with my warlock with my pathetic no destructive magic hero. Before i flee with 130 furies, i paid u around 11k in gold, that's = 11000/80 =137 marksmen trained. Much lesser than the damage i managed to do to you though.
For every surrender, the hero wil also have to pay 4-5k to reemploy the hero which will only hurt income in long run, that's the design feature in this game, hitting and running is part of strategy. That's why shackles of last man is invented and costs 40k to buy!! Just like immue to implosion or negates mind control etc .. And well, no hard feelings jinxer, i never hit and run on u , its more of being hit by u since u attacked me, and hitting back as much as i can then run. And you were already talking about dishonorable with hit and run, Which i never once did though i could have changed the game completely playing the 7 furies tactics catching and hitting and run with u.I just reported the loss since i don't wanna get into an argument that game.
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Arangar
Famous Hero
Weak ranger - lost viking
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posted November 15, 2006 08:49 PM |
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It's not that easy to stop such a tactic actually. You can lose 4k gold for the chance to cast a meteor shower or 2 before the start of the real fight. 4k is nothing in the end game.
In addition, just "wait" with your furies, you'll get your turn easily even after your hero's turn. If you see that the starting order is unadvantageous for your side, just surrender at once.
Rinse, repeat...
simple... and far from easy to counter.
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Arangar
Norwegian viking
ranger of the north
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted November 15, 2006 11:44 PM |
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sq79 -- This thread has become a debate on hit and run only. None of my comments are directed at you personally.
But sq79 its obvious that you dont understand the definition of Hit & Run. The Hit part is not when you run up to your opponent and engage them in battle. The Hit part is after the battle has been engaged no matter who did the engaging....and one player then uses there turn to " Hit" the other person with some form of damage and then leaves battle BEFORE the other person has equal oppurtunity to retaliate. So for example when I attacked you....and you claim you were suprised.... ( even tho you knew I was in middle for a week ) your furies gave you first chance to act.... you coulda left battle then. But you attacked me killing a big portion of my army then right before it would be my turn....you run.
Regardless it really doesnt matter....this debate has been going on for years. Heroes 4 finally fixed the problem...only to see H5 regress back. The towns in heroes have have severe specialites and abilities thta make each town stand out and towns are not all even. So hit and run exploit is even more of an issue in H5 because of certain matchups. Some matchups make countering hit and run virtually impossible.
@ Betruger .......
I noticed you quoted every part of my previous post except failed to comment on my comparison of 1 Sprite vs 1,000,000,000 Golems or Hydras? So I assume since you think hit and run is a great strategy...that you also approve of the 1 Sprite STRATEGY!!! I see betruger would rather volunteer to jump onto players do not play list then try and win a game without hit and run at his disposal... as if the TOH community wasnt small enough at this time, gonna get even smaller. ESPECIALLY after a few newbies get trounced by the cheesy hit and run they wont be back...
Arangar has the right idea tho best I have heard. Shouldnt beable to surrender until heroes turn.
This debate will never be solved... was just fun to hear peoples thoughts on it again.
The
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2006 12:23 AM |
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Jinxer, shackles of last man is an artifact meant to prevent hit and run... Why do u think they made it ? Or maybe they should label it an artifact for eg. immue to "hit and run" tactic ?  Just like the cuirass of drwen kings or cloak of mind immunity etc etc .. to make it look nicer hehe
Ubi was long aware of the problem where heroes started first in Heroes 4 where it really is a problem.
The problem can be solved on your side if u have windstrider boots, tactics and splitted 7 griffins with ring of celerity or speed.. Yes maybe its about luck i guess.. but how about my luck when I'm warlock, level 22 and only offered destructive in level 23 ? Do melee with haven ? That's suicidal act for sure..
And when u attacked me .. i knew i had to pay u 10k to surrender, so why not do more than 10k of damage to make it worthwhile besides the most i can do is 3 times of hit and run .. that is more than enough for u to reach my town..
i'm not saying i like hit and run .. but i have been a victim of it several times and i personally feel that its just part of strategy in this game.
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted November 16, 2006 12:58 AM |
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i dont argue with jinxer, especially now when he has a REAL future in heroes history  , i just want to express my opinion about htis subject - hit and run.
in h3 was ugly.
h4 had a very nice idea of losing adv.movement points, tho there was an issue with second player, as a conclusion, one equilibris introduced the changes with town gate outside fight , it became almost insignificat.
here , in h5, it's questionable if it brings more good than bad or if its a real gamebreaker. anyway its a double edged blade , and it might be possible on very few circumstances to actually affect the turn of the game. experience will tell which is the percentage of the game when it really changed something.
hit and run is some of the game spice , like luck with artifacts, hero etc, cannot be avoided, its partof the game and fun.
saying that , at a specific moment i am better than u and u should give up for that, is what i totally disagree with. i could tell that i lost so many games when the victory was so "obvious" , won too few (but thats h4 , now im a disaster ) that you shoul dbe en-garde untill the opponent say gg, admiting the loss, not u begging for a win. i dont want to sound like critics, its just my perception about the game.
for perfect balance battle are duels
have a nice day
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted November 16, 2006 04:02 AM |
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shackles of last man is an artifact meant to prevent hit and run... Why do u think they made it ?
Shackles of the "Last" man description:
Prevents you and all your foes from retreating from combat.
Nowhere do I see it say "Intended to prevent hit & run" Nowhere does it even hint about it in any way... That artifacts intention is as it says prevent anyone from retreating. Meaning that after both teams dug deep and gave it everything they had trying to win the battle...and I have a few of my LAST remaining units left and I realize that I cannot finish my opponent off before he gets me... so I must try to retreat and regroup.... Woops I cant cause of the artifact.
As for the bad luck of you not getting Destructuve Magic on level 23 hero..... that is because you told me you WAS offered it on first or 2nd level up and passed on it. So thats not so much bad luck as it was bad planning and strategy developing... but who really cares right... there is always the back up plan.... if I cant get Implo I got my handful of furies to clean up the game.
Thats like being in a fist fight with another guy and intending to fight it out bear fists...then saying hmm he looks bigger then me so I will just use my back up plan and pull my gun out and shoot him. Too bad he didnt get a chance to fight back...but I had no choice there was no way I coulda beat that big dude straight up hehe.
Anyways... its all good sq79. I hold no hard feelings agaisnt you. And none of my posts were ment as any offense to you personally. Just debating the issue in general.
@ Teacher -- what do you mean now that I have a Real Future in Heroes history?
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 16, 2006 05:00 AM |
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Oh yea Mike then I will make my attack directly.
Your a hit a & runner Sq79 & you make excuses about being outplayed.
SQ79 "Oh I was attacked so it's ok to hit & run"
What a load of crap & it's easy to not play a crap player that uses hit & run.
That leads me to Betruegrat who seems to support Hit & Run.
Yea you can win if you actually know how to do it.
If it backfires on you then that usually means you suck lol
Anyone who has to use cheap tactics to get a win is a loser in my book.
Thats why people dont like playing this game also, because people give them a bad expeience by basically wasting 4-8 hrs on a BS loss.
No one likes to lose but many would love a good game then win or lose.
I dont put up with losers & cheaters,*&#$ TALKERS, editors & the sort.
I been screwed way too many times also back in the days.
I know how it feels & when i hear someone even IMPLYING that they support H&R is an automatic blacklist.
I want a good game, not a screwed one after so many hrs.
I think we all owe ourselves & our oponents that much.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2006 06:00 AM |
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Indeed I am finding alot of players want the easy cheap wins. A wins a win to them no matter what they gotta do to get it.
If someone does something within the rules to win then it should be considered honorable. Otherwise the rules should be changed.
le fey
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 16, 2006 06:12 AM |
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Like I have been saying for years.
Everyone has thier own definition of honourable.
Thats why we all play the game differently.
You ask us what is honourable.
You need to ask yourself that question.
We all have our own thoughts about honour.
You will find in time when you play online on whats honourable & whats not in your own eyes.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted November 16, 2006 10:17 AM |
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@ Teacher -- what do you mean now that I have a Real Future in Heroes history?
it was a joke , jinxer, with a lil bit of truth although. the rumors said youre now even more competitive than before. either people is not used to this status of you , or they just polite. however, i heard the rumors from trusty sources 
besides, i am sure , u dont have to confirm that, u like this release of heroes much more than previous ones and it fits u best.
wish u gl, and see u soon to show me what you're capable of, u lil' beast
have a nice day
P.S. i got a feelin that "the clans" will "hit the stores" soon ..
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insatiable
Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
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posted November 16, 2006 11:23 AM |
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hmm actually a 3 team clan should work.. considering there is around 60 active players, that should make around 15 clans.. not bad
Now you all go make some maps and stop yacking
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2006 11:50 AM |
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Oh yea Mike then I will make my attack directly.
Your a hit a & runner Sq79 & you make excuses about being outplayed.
SQ79 "Oh I was attacked so it's ok to hit & run"
What a load of crap & it's easy to not play a crap player that uses hit & run.
Like i said, shackles of last man is the artifact created to prevent this. And i was defnitely not outplayed in anyway regarding to troops buildup. And as for the being attacked thing.. his priests actually got to kill some of my furies before i was able to cast the spell and retreat, following which i never tried it again.
I can even go on to play exchange towns with him when he told me he had no logs and i had logs + boots to reduce terrain penalty. Is that anotherdishonourable act ? Yes i would find it worst if i did that when the player told me he had no logs!
I don't like hit and run myself but i won't deem it dishonorable if anyone uses it to win me and there's nothing wrong in heroes 5 where heroes don't start first!
When jinxer attacked me, he's gonnna get a guaranteed 10k though, so am i gonna give it just like that he can build another 130+ marksmen when i have no chance of doing any losses at all ?
And yes, its easy not to play u as well with your nasty remarks when you're not aware what's happening between jinxer and me, I'll sign up for your blacklist automatically!
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That leads me to Betruegrat who seems to support Hit & Run.
Yea you can win if you actually know how to do it.
If it backfires on you then that usually means you suck lol
Anyone who has to use cheap tactics to get a win is a loser in my book.
Thats why people dont like playing this game also, because people give them a bad expeience by basically wasting 4-8 hrs on a BS loss.
No one likes to lose but many would love a good game then win or lose.
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I more likely that you don't like to lose and gives lots of excuses when people uses various strageties on you.
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I dont put up with losers & cheaters,*&#$ TALKERS, editors & the sort.
I been screwed way too many times also back in the days.
I know how it feels & when i hear someone even IMPLYING that they support H&R is an automatic blacklist.
I want a good game, not a screwed one after so many hrs.
I think we all owe ourselves & our oponents that much.
You don't get a good game this way, what you get is a boring game with only one fight and its easy to see the outcome even before the fight begins, what the fun in it ???
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 16, 2006 12:05 PM |
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I like to do hit'n'run and also i like to be hit'n'runned...
And i think that surrender or flee only on hero move is good way to restrict it.
And againist some rases h'n'r is wery unefective.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted November 16, 2006 02:46 PM |
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As with what I stated above about people having different definitions of honour Gaseater
SQ you are not the first one to not want to play me with my mouth running around.
First of all I hate to get mad at my friends but I do when i feel it is wrong.
Everyone has a definition of H&R.
My definition is a player either attacking or being attacked.
A player attacks the other player & runs before the other player can even get one lick in.
It explains the definition of the name H&R.
You hit the player then you run.
Even though Adam got on my case about my definition.
I respect that because people have thier own definition of H&R.
Ok SQ97 what i read was Jinxer did not say but Implied about H&R.
YOU came out of nowhere defending yourself.
So with you getting offended & what I read, it seemed you H&R Jinxer.
I did read about 2 attacks in yall game.
I already gave you my definition about H&R & what you explained does not match what I mentioned.
I owe you an apology & you can accept it or not.
I am an open minded speaker & believe it or not, I was 10 times worst when i was new.
I even made Killa Bee run off the zone many times lol.
Jinxer You really need to relax.
Sometimes a game dont go your way & it happens.
Dont get so worked up & get your undies in a bunch like if they were recreational
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Dreaming of a Better World
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fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted November 16, 2006 07:31 PM |
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I never thought I`d join into this, kinda new to TOH and all, but some cents anyway..
Just so I understand what you "follow my rules or stay away" guys mean:
If I am attacked, with my main hero without proper forces, and it turns out that my hero is first to act, and that my only creatures (a unit of some skellies or whatever, you get my point(HERO-SKELLIE-ENEMY-ENEMY etc)) is next. I then have 3 choices
1
- Retreat without casting any spells
That would give you some honor in someones book - but in my mind it is just lousy play..
2
- Cast spell with your hero and retreat
You make the best out of an awkward situation - but may be on the blacklist
3
- Cast the spell and do not retreat
You`ll end up dead, and can spend the evening doing other things.
I actually interpret Jinxer and Aculias to saying that 1 would be the proper option here, and well, I am of a different opinion but lets just clarify if you mean that.
Another example:
I currently play Betruger on Final controversy or whatever, with the mines in the middle. So Betruger has got Vittorio to guard his mines and I am dungeon. Is it dishonourable of me to attack him with spells to desimate his 5 refugee vampires and 10 sprites with a lousy hero?
I gotta warn you Betruger, I will develope a secondary hero with some nasty destruction spells and hunt vittorio down, be prepared
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted November 16, 2006 09:53 PM |
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Killing a lousy scout with a lousy scout is completely fine...and I can completely see the strategy and sense of hit and run in that setting. But when you use a handfull of furies to kill the 3/4 of your opponents army while your main forces are setting in town completely safe and not at risk....is the completely retarded part.
And it makes no difference who attacks who... if you are wandering around in the middle or exposed area with only a handfull of furies then you have to expect you will be attacked. So when you get attacked, just surrender and leave. But casting 3500 Implosion and eliminating a huge chunk of my army and then leaving before I can retaliate or rez etc etc is just not right...
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Betruger
Known Hero
empowered mind
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posted November 17, 2006 12:09 AM |
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I gotta warn you Betruger, I will develope a secondary hero with some nasty destruction spells and hunt vittorio down, be prepared
Yeah, just try and feel the taste of my ballista missiles
Btw we have to finish that game soon, it was an interesting one.
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Ghasteater
Known Hero
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posted November 17, 2006 05:22 AM |
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I hear that dwarves have Mentor perk, that pump up exp 2-dary heroes to 25% of main hero.
So create bands lvl12 Kamikaze (Sinitar,Erin) is possible...
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