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| Thread: Ultimate Creature Chart! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 14, 2007 06:30 PM |
bonus applied. |
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Ultimate Creature Chart!
THE NEW ToTe CHART
Rules: All those units have a base growth as if castle was already built. The numbers in brackets refer to shooters' damage without range penalty, but it's better to use the first value - most of the time shooters score penalized damage, or are blocked and score penalized damage due to melee penalty (this one actually shows the weakness of shooters in this part of the game  )
HAVEN
Conscripts: 51, 52%
Brutes: 53, 51%
Marksmen: 46 (92), 46%
Marksmen, Dougal: 66 (132), 62%
Marksmen , +20 trained: 85(169), 70%
Marksmen, +20 trained, Dougal: 121(242), 79%
Crossbowmen: 96, 46%
Crossbowmen, Dougal: 138, 64%
Crossbowmen, +20 trained: 176, 70%
Crossbowmen, +20 trained, Dougal: 253, 79%
Squires: 56, 80%
Squires, Laszlo: 81, 86%
Squires, +20 trained: 112, 90%
Squires, +20 trained, Laszlo: 161, 93%
Vindicators*: 127, 79%
Vindicators*, Laszlo: 182, 85%
Vindicators*, +20 trained: 255, 89%
Vindicators*, +20 trained, Laszlo: 364, 93%
Imperial Griffins: 95, 69%
Imperial Griffins, Irina: 135, 78%
Imperial Griffins, dive: 190, 69%
Imperial Griffins, dive, Irina: 270, 78%
Battle Griffins: 78, 83%
Battle Griffins, dive: 39, 83%
Battle Griffins, Irina: 113, 87%
Battle Griffins, dive, Irina: 56, 87%
Inquisitors: 41 (82), 84%
Inquisitors, +10 trained: 109 (218), 94%
Zealots: 47 (95), 83%
Zealots, +10 trained: 126 (252), 93%
Paladins: 170, 85%
Paladins, jousting: 238, 85%
Paladins, +5 trained*: 383, 93%
Paladins, +5 trained*, jousting: 536, 93%
Paladins, hypothetical +20 trained: 1020, 98%
Paladins, hypothetical +20 trained, jousting: 1428, 98%
Champions: 187, 83%
Champions, jousting: 262, 83%
Champions, +5 trained*: 421, 93%
Champions, +5 trained*, jousting: 589, 93%
Champions, hypothetical +20 trained: 1122, 97%
Champions, hypothetical +20 trained, jousting: 1571, 97%
Archangels: 205, 89%
Seraphs: 225, 87%
Seraphs, blessed: 338, 87%
*Notes: Haven can’t afford more than 5 trained cavaliers on most solo maps, if any, in fact, so I used that value here. They are still the strongest units in game when trained. Klaus wasn’t included, I’m too lazy to search for his damage bonus chart. I assumed vindicators always cleave when attacking to calculate their damage.
NECROPOLIS
Skellie Archers: 41, 30%
Skeleton Warriors: 57, 40%
Plague Zombies: 54, 73%
Plague Zombies, Orson: 75, 80%
Rot Zombies: 43, 76%
Rot Zombies, Orson: 60, 83%
Spectres: 72, 62%
Poltergeists: 75, 65%
Vamplords: 86, 70%
Vamplords, Lucretia: 122, 79%
Vampire Princes: 86, 74%
Vampire Princes, Lucretia: 122, 81%
ArchLiches: 78 (157), 79%
Lichmasters: 88 (177), 79%
Wraights: 198, 85%
Banshees: 162, 86%
Spectrals: 120, 84%
Spectrals, horde building: 180, 89%
Ghost Dragons: 129, 80%
Ghost Dragons, horde building: 194, 87%
Notes: The numbers are obviously higher due to necromancy. Without it, necromancers’ lineup definitely doesn’t look impressive.
SYLVAN
Sprites: 29, -21%
Sprites, Horde Building: 34, -1%
Dryads: 36, -21%
Dryads, Horde Building: 43, -1%
Wardancers: 58, 38%
Wardancers, Gilraen: 83, 56%
Wind Dancers: 75, 44%
Wind Dancers, Agility: 75, 71%
Wind Dancers, Gilraen: 108, 61%
Wind Dancers, Agility, Gilraen: 108, 77%
Master Hunters: 73 (146), 34%
Master Hunters, Ossir: 105 (210), 54%
Sharpshooters: 125, 36%
Sharpshooters, Ossir: 173, 56%
Druid Elders: 101, 60%
High Druids: 106, 60%
Silver Unicorns: 122, 84%
Silver Unicorns, Ylthin: 158, 88%
Pristine Unicorns: 124, 83%
Pristine Unicorns, Ylthin: 163, 87%
Ancient Treants: 87, 93%
Ancient Treants, Horde Building: 109, 95%
Savage Treants: 99, 92%
Savage Treants, Horde Building: 124, 94%
Savage Treants, Rage of the Forest: 141, 88%
Savage Treants, Rage of the Forest, Horde building: 176, 90%
Emerald Dragons: 185, 86%
Rainbow Dragons: 180, 86%
Notes: The numbers here don’t include avenger and elven luck, which are almost obvious choices for any ranger, so the total damage of creatures such as dryads is way higher in actual game.
INFERNO
Familiars: 59, 27%
Vermins: 59, 30%
Horned Overseers: 56, 67%
Horned Grunts: 56, 63%
Horned Grunts, Leap: 60*, 63%
Cerberi: 62, 42%
Cerberi, Grawl: 88, 58%
Firehounds: 49, 44%
Firehounds, Grawl: 70, 60%
Succubi Misstresses: 40 (79), 60%
Succubi Misstresses, Jezebeth: 114, 72%
Seducers: 40 (79), 63%
Seducers, Jezebeth: 57 (114), 74%
Nightmares*: 101, 82%
Nightmares*, Horde building: 118, 85%
Hell Stallions: 113, 81%
Hell Stallions, horde building: 132, 84%
Pit Lords: 141, 87%
Pit Spawns: 163*, 89%
Arch Devils: 209, 87%
Arch Demons: 214, 88%
Notes: Hell Stallions’ aura and pit spawns’ axe of slaughter damage bonus not included.
DUNGEON
Assassins: 32, 31%
Stalkers: 45, 38%
Bloodfuries: 48, 16%
Blood Witches: 44, 38%
Bloodfuries, Yrwanna: 69, 40%
Blood Sisters, Yrwanna: 63, 57%
Minotaur Guards: 106, 67%
Minotaur Taskmasters: 65, 74%
Minotaur Guards, Kythra: 152, 76%
Minotaur Taskmasters, Kythra: 94, 82%
Grim Raiders: 84, 78%
Brisk Raiders: 84, 78%
Deep Hydras: 86, 89%
Foul Hydras: 79, 89%
Shadow Matriarchs: 132, 81%
Shadow Mistresses: 150, 83%
Black Dragons: 230, 90%
Red Dragons: 210, 89%
Notes: Nothing to add.
ACADEMY
Master Gremlins: 22 (44), 42%
Master Gremlins, Havez: 30 (60), 58%
Gremlin Saboteurs: 24 (48), 44%
Gremlin Saboteurs, Havez: 35 (69), 60%
Obsidian Gargs: 31, 78%
Elemental Gargs: 30, 79%
Steel Golems: 90, 72%
Steel Golems, Razzak: 130, 81%
Magnetic Golems: 90, 64%
Magnetic Golems, Razzak: 130, 75%
Archmagi: 35 (70), 67%
Archmagi, Narxes: 49 (98), 76%
Battle Magi: 77, 64%
Battle Magi, Narxes: 105, 74%
Djinn Sultans: 119, 69%
Djinn Sultans, Horde Building: 158, 77%
Djinn Vizieri: 114, 71%
Djinn Vizieri, Horde building: 152, 78%
Rakshasa Rajas: 186, 88%
Rakshasa Ksathras: 222, 88%
Titans: 110 (220), 87%
Storm Titans: 110 (220), 87%
Notes: Interesting damage by Ksathras there, eh?
FORTRESS
Shield Guards: 37, 71%
Shield Guards, Ingvar: 51, 80%
Mountain Guards: 39, 71%
Mountain Guards, Ingvar: 54, 80%
Skirmishers: 27 (54), 61%
Skirmishers, Karli : 34 (77), 73%
Harpooners, 39 (78), 52%
Harpooners, Karli : 56 (113), 63%
Blackbear riders: 64, 80%
Blackbear riders, Ebba: 92, 85%
Whitebear riders: 70, 78%
Whitebear riders, Ebba: 100, 84%
Berserkers: 57, 62%
Berserkers, Horde Building: 77, 71%
Berserkers, Horde Bullding, Rage Activated: 106, 63%
Battleragers: 52, 68%
Battleragers, Horde Building: 70, 76%
Battleragers, Horde Building, Special Activated: 88, 76%
Rune Patriarchs: 44 (89), 71%
Rune Patriarchs, horde building: 52 (103), 75%
Rune Patriarchs, horde building, Erling: 73 (146), 82%
Rune Keepers: 56 (111), 73%
Rune Keepers, horde building: 65 (130), 77%
Rune Keepers, horde building, Erling: 91 (181), 84%
Flame Lords: 118, 88%
Flame Lords, flame strike: 141, 88%
Thunder Thanes*: 114, 90%
Magma Dragons: 180, 93%
Lava Dragons: 198, 92%
NOTES: Don't care for the stats, it's all about runes. Thunder Thanes’ storm attack included when calculating damage.
STRONGHOLD
Goblin Trappers: 34, 61%
Goblin Trappers, Horde building: 39, 66%
Goblin Trappers, horde building, rage 1: 39, 73%
Goblin Trappers, horde building, rage 2: 43, 73%
Goblin Trappers, horde building, Kilghan: 53, 76%
Goblin Trappers, horde building, rage 1, Kilghan: 53, 81%
Goblin Trappers, horde building, rage 2, Kilghan: 62, 81%
Goblin Witchdoctors: 54, 42%
Goblin Witchdoctors, horde building: 60, 48%
Goblin Witchdoctors, horde building, rage 1: 60, 63%
Goblin Witchdoctors, horde building, Kilghan: 84, 63%
Goblin Witchdoctors, horde building, Kilghan, rage1: 84, 73%
Centaur Marauders: 48 (97), 44%
Centaur Marauders, rage 1: 63 (126), 44%
Centaur Marauders, rage 3: 84 (168), 44%
Centaur Marauders, Haggash: 69 (139), 60%
Centaur Marauders, rage 1, Haggash: 88 (176), 60%
Centaur Marauders, rage 2, Haggash: 118 (235), 60%
Centaur Nomads: 43 (86), 54%
Centaur Nomads, rage 1: 56 (112), 54%
Centaur Nomads, rage 3: 70 (140), 54%
Centaur Nomads, Haggash: 62 (123), 68%
Centaur Nomads, rage 1, Haggash: 78 (157), 68%
Centaur Nomads, rage 3, Haggash: 98 (196), 68%
Mauler*: 92 (184), 51%
Mauler*, rage 1: 92 (184), 65%
Mauler*, rage 2: 147 (296), 65%
Mauler*, Telsek: 132 (264), 66%
Mauler*, rage 1, Telsek: 132 (264), 76%
Mauler*, rage 2, Telsek: 211 (422), 76%
Warmonger: 68, 73%
Warmonger, rage 1: 68, 81%
Warmonger, rage 3: 68, 90%
Warmonger, Telsek: 97, 81%
Warmonger, rage 1, Telsek: 97, 86%
Warmonger, rage 3, Telsek: 97, 92%
Sky Daughter: 65, 70%
Sky Daughter, rage 2: 65, 76%
Earth Daughter: 90, 67%
Earth Daughter, rage 2: 97, 73%
Earth Daughter, rage 3: 97, 85%
Executioner: 240, 75%
Executioner, rage 1: 270, 75%
Executioner, rage 2: 270, 80%
Executioner, rage 3: 405, 80%
Executioner, Gorshak: 320, 82%
Executioner, rage 1, Gorshak: 350, 82%
Executioner, rage 2, Gorshak: 350, 82%
Executioner, rage 3, Gorshak: 525, 82%
Chieftain: 127, 83%
Chieftain, rage 2: 127, 87%
Chieftain, rage 3: 254, 87%
Chieftain, Gorshak:
Chieftain, rage 1, Gorshak: 171, 87%
Chieftain, rage 2, Gorshak: 171, 90%
Chieftain, rage 3, Gorshak: 341, 90%
Foul Wyvern : 146, 83%
Foul Wyvern, Shak’karukat: 146, 87%
Paokai: 131, 86%
Paokai, Shak’karukat: 131, 89%
Bloodeyed Cyclops, throwing goblins: 41 (81), 89%
Bloodeyed Cyclops, melee: 162, 89%
Bloodeyed Cyclops, melee, rage1: 192, 89%
Untamed Cyclops, throwing goblins: 51 (102), 88%
Untamed Cyclops, melee: 204, 88%
Untamed Cyclops, melee, rage1: 236, 88%
Notes: The second number indicates mauler's damage when he succeeds his assault special. Notice how insanely powerful damage the executioners do even without any rage at all - it tops everything in this game (counting base growth and no buffs) except for champions jousting at full distance. Cyclops' goblin throwing sucks, and Cyclopes themselves are mildly disappointing with their mediocre damage. Notice how poor the non-raged bloodeyes are compared to other level 7s.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 14, 2007 07:02 PM |
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Hey, more fun for us chartmaniacs!  Well, one thing though about the Marksmen. I don't think the second castle should be taken into consideration, as it doen't represent a normal game. It is only for Dougal+Marksmen abusers in Subterranean Treasures. Well, but as it is so widely used it can be good to give a lesson.. never play vs. Dougal player in Sub. Treasures. So Yes, Marksmen are overpowered, but mainly because of horrid damage and training.
Well, be commenting soon more  Very good that you took many different factors into account, that are essential to the game (horde buildings, necromancy) Very good job!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 14, 2007 07:11 PM |
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Thanks! :]
The only reason i've included second castle here is to show how UBER the marksmen can become with a simple trick of getting a second town, Note that the second town is counted just a fort! With the second town being a castle aswell and battle frenzy+necklace, the damage of marksmen would greatly surpass 1000, and it would reach something like 1500 with righteus might.. ZOMG come on it's twice more as all other creatures can do together 
EDIT: i was wrong:
The total power of Marksmen coming from two castles+ expert righteos might + Dougal + Expert Bless + Battle Frenzy + Amulet of Blood claw is
2312. Add archery to reach the ultimate 2774 damage per week.. ah, and with knight's usual 6-8 points of attack.. that's 3346!! Black dragons coming from two castles would do only 460. LOL
Fortunately, it's unlikely to see that happen. dougie starts with archery and attack, battle frenzy can be his pick after 2-3 levels. getting castle for a second town is a bit difficult, though, and he can't buy amulet of bloody claw in the town. He can either get righteous might or endurance, and inquisitors can bless the marksmen if he didn't get the spell. So, the more realistic value of marksmen damage is around 1500 on that map. Still, seeing that one stack can do more at its maximum potential that 2-3 factions together is really scary
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 14, 2007 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 19:34, 14 Jan 2007.
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I could see that coming! Can you please add some options as training with a hero other than Dougal and adding some other heroes with specialties? Carli and Gilraen particularly interest me but others make a difference too. Only then can your chart be complete!
Thank you!
Edit:
Also what is your average necromancy growth?
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 14, 2007 07:57 PM |
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Well, depends on the map, but I usually have 1k skellies after a month, so it's average 250 per week. Of course later on it changes drastically, after 6 weeks you can get 60-80 skellies after a single creep battle.. but the growth around the first month is the most important.
I'll add some other hero specialists too, no prob.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 15, 2007 04:44 PM |
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Doomforge: Ok, marksmen do very good damage in large numbers.. And do much more than blackies.. Why?? 'cause they cost MUCH MUCH MORE, believe it or not.. I wouldn't call it necessary overpowered, except for the fact that you have so much growth with Haven via training, and the other factions don't have growth.
TIP: Train peasants to squires, marksmen to squires, and see their damage and durability.. NOTE for those that don't know, you have MORE squires than marksmen per week (with training), because you can't "downgrade" squires to archers, but archers to squires.. no problem
so when you have 600 marksmen, you can have 800 squires instead (if you trained the marksmen).. and then see the killing machines in action with Laszlo. Marksmen are just little kids! 
Second town, Battle frenzy, etc.. these are not dougal specific, so Dougal is not an overpowered hero. Count the second castle for others as well, and use the COSTS for marksmen to compare, not the Growth..
I agree that training is overpowered, because you have SOOO MUCH gold, but SOOO FEW growth -- see my other topic with the treasure chests. All factions beside haven usually have nothing to do with their gold 
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 15, 2007 05:44 PM |
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Great work Doomy boy ... But Hmm? There is no Fortress hero who has the speciel with Berzker guys....
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 15, 2007 05:48 PM |
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Berserkers are really rubish with their tiny health, worst creature in Fortress, whos wants to speacilise in that?
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Visit my Site!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2007 07:12 PM |
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Quote:
so when you have 600 marksmen, you can have 800 squires instead (if you trained the marksmen).. and then see the killing machines in action with Laszlo. Marksmen are just little kids!
You won't. Too expensive. Full population of squires (counting trained peasants and archers) with bless, battle frenzy etc. does only 600 damage/week. "only", because marksmen are cheaper and do almost thrice that much on rich maps, with their max potential at 3,5 k damage per week. And you won't have enough gold to train squires from 2 castles even on the richest maps. Also, either you won't afford paladins so you'll become crippled by dark magic, or get them and less squires, so you'll do 400-500 "only", which is amazing, but nothing really GAMEBREAKING (no precise shot). So.. no, it's not that good. Sorry. ;p
The only good thing is that with soldier's luck and boosted squires, you'll always do the shield bash.. so, yes, you can really f*ck the marksmen hard in the ass. But not other factions ;p
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 15, 2007 07:14 PM |
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Man I was talking about an "example" with squires, just to see how bad asses they can be. Who cares they cost a lot?? You can have 1000 treasure chests and 100 Dragon Utopias, enough gold eh?
Besides, you overestimate Precise Shot.. It's only 3 tiles range! No decent player would even think of "using" this ability as it's main "strength".
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 15, 2007 08:44 PM |
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ouchh, you can also convert everything you have to cavaliers and reach like 80.000 damage per week.. but who can afford it even with 100 utopias? Some things certainly are not likely to happen in this game.
And precise shot.. umm, if marksmen are surrounded with squires and paladins, what will you do with your melee units? Stand there and wait for marksmen to kill all your ranged units and then slowly start to whack everything else? Or charge and try to take the marksmen protectors down? And as you charge and kill some palas/squires, marksmen get precise shots for a certain one-hit-kills.. even Ancient Treants can't survive! It wouldn't be that ridiculous without precise shot, actually.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 16, 2007 07:29 AM |
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Doom, about the berserkers, the hero who got a speciel is Ebba but she has bear speciel... Just so you could get another number up there with the Bears (fortress)
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 16, 2007 09:41 AM |
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Quote:
Some things certainly are not likely to happen in this game.
Like your two castles with marksmen blasting anything. Get REAL! you say marksmen with Dougal with blessings and other things like that but you always forget the enemy can get some feats too. You think he stays there and waits for you? he doesn't have two castles but you have or what? Come on! (and Haven is one of the worst factions at creeping, from my experience, because of the low initiative of the lower tier units)
And why you always say Marksmen with Training? Please, this doesn't mean the marksmen are overpowered, training is! Why you don't make calculations WITHOUT training? consider the other races have training, too. Then you'll see marksmen are not that overpowered. The Knight is overpowered because he has training
The same thing with Inferno. Never again say it is strong at creeping because that's not TRUE. It's the First Aid Tent which is good at creeping not Inferno, and Deleb is just a hero with War Machines. (seriously, try to play with other inferno heroes and you'll see) So yeah, it's not the faction good at creeping, it's the Tent which is not inferno-specific, you know
P.S: what kind of calculations have you performed? why the ArchDevil deals more damage than the ArchAngel? That's just his MAXIMUM damage, 'cause the minimum is crappy.
Anyway, I like the idea of combining the other two charts. Good work
EDIT: I'd like a Creature Power chart with initiative and speed included, too
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 16, 2007 10:58 AM |
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Quote:
Like your two castles with marksmen blasting anything. Get REAL! you say marksmen with Dougal with blessings and other things like that but you always forget the enemy can get some feats too. You think he stays there and waits for you? he doesn't have two castles but you have or what? Come on! (and Haven is one of the worst factions at creeping, from my experience, because of the low initiative of the lower tier units)
Say it to TowerLord. Or say it to my friend which is a marksmen abuser and beats me every time. I guess they will just laugh  There isn't much problem with getting two full trained marksmen populations. If the enemy has two castles, multiply the damage by 2. So what? It won't be even 500. And marksmen can do above 3k.
The enemy doesn't need to wait for you, cuz you attack with your little overpowered horde around second month, while he's in the middle of town development (rarely you can build, say, shadow dragons earlier than after 4-5 weeks on non-rich map). You can catch him off guard easily.
Quote:
And why you always say Marksmen with Training? Please, this doesn't mean the marksmen are overpowered, training is! Why you don't make calculations WITHOUT training? consider the other races have training, too. Then you'll see marksmen are not that overpowered. The Knight is overpowered because he has training
Cuz only training marksmen is overpowered. Training squires results in the damage slightly above 500 at max and is extremely expensive - WAY more than you can usually afford. Marksmen are the most cheap (8k for a full population or so.. is this much for the amazing damage, five times higher at least than black dragons, costing the same ammount of gold+sulfur?) and the most effective. Training priests and cavaliers is simply not possible, even with 20 utopias you would still run out of cash And double-check the chart, I've made calculations for unboosted, untrained population of marksmen aswell
Quote:
The same thing with Inferno. Never again say it is strong at creeping because that's not TRUE. It's the First Aid Tent which is good at creeping not Inferno, and Deleb is just a hero with War Machines. (seriously, try to play with other inferno heroes and you'll see) So yeah, it's not the faction good at creeping, it's the Tent which is not inferno-specific, you know
Deleb is not a hero with war machines. Deleb is a hero with SPECIALIZATION that makes the ballista a killer. You can do well without tent too, since you travel and kill things with worthless horned demons, which you don't need to care for. It's just my obsession that I like not to lose anything when creeping. Even junk like the demons.
Any town without proper hero, tactic and (possibly) tent sucks at creeping, so your statement is not true. The whole point of fast creeping is to get the best hero to fit the job, the best way to avoid casualties (necros completely don't need the tent, mind you) and best way to kill things quickly. Deleb with ballista and tent combines it all.
Quote:
P.S: what kind of calculations have you performed? why the ArchDevil deals more damage than the ArchAngel? That's just his MAXIMUM damage, 'cause the minimum is crappy.
I've used the (correct)heroes 5 weekly damage formula. Well, the stacks usually do average damage. The bigger the stack is, the more "average" the damage gets. Check it in game if you don't believe. That's why it's best to count average damage, and ArchDevils do a bit more. Of course it's just 4 points, so it's almost the same, but the devils have more potential anyway, since they can do more.. and angels can't, even when blessed. Not that Infernal heroes have bless, but still.. Of course it can be a con, too - especially vs. mass weakness
Quote:
EDIT: I'd like a Creature Power chart with initiative and speed included, too
Oh, I'd like to do it too, but I have completely no idea how to do it  Any ideas? Perhaps we could use initiative as some kind of multiplier, but I cannot think what values should I use
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted January 16, 2007 12:10 PM |
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Quote:
Oh, I'd like to do it too, but I have completely no idea how to do it Any ideas? Perhaps we could use initiative as some kind of multiplier, but I cannot think what values should I use
What about damage per turn? The formula would be simple: dmg/turn = (dmg_in_your_table)*initiative/10
exapample: Marksmen
73.6 = 92*8/10
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open source for an open mind
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted January 16, 2007 12:40 PM |
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Precise shots can be used with good teleport spell and it is a killer for high level troops.(ofcourse you will have 2 stacks of markmans).
It is very helpful ability - you can take utopias on week 3 day 3-4.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 16, 2007 01:27 PM |
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Quote:
Precise shots can be used with good teleport spell and it is a killer for high level troops.(ofcourse you will have 2 stacks of markmans).
It is very helpful ability - you can take utopias on week 3 day 3-4.
Of course you can take utopias, with losses. (the dragons attack first)
Quote:
rarely you can build, say, shadow dragons earlier than after 4-5 weeks on non-rich map
rarely you can train and make 600 marksmen...
seriously, i don't see why you would make them faster?
and as i said, i don't think you can't lose units at creeping with Haven
Quote:
Deleb is not a hero with war machines. Deleb is a hero with SPECIALIZATION that makes the ballista a killer. You can do well without tent too, since you travel and kill things with worthless horned demons, which you don't need to care for. It's just my obsession that I like not to lose anything when creeping. Even junk like the demons.
Any town without proper hero, tactic and (possibly) tent sucks at creeping, so your statement is not true. The whole point of fast creeping is to get the best hero to fit the job, the best way to avoid casualties (necros completely don't need the tent, mind you) and best way to kill things quickly. Deleb with ballista and tent combines it all.
Not really, I think the Tent in a Dungeon Army would make it the best faction at creeping (or maybe Sylvan too) 'cause they have fast and offensive units (some of them anyway)
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted January 16, 2007 03:36 PM |
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4-5 peasant is a "hudge" lose
the point is to surround the markmans right. 150 marksmans are enough to take utopia and you can get them at week 3 day 1 with no problems.
Here is the peasants formation that can keep the dragons at 3 range
P _ _ _
_ P _ _
_ _ P _
M _ _ P
Ofcource some bad morale on the dragons helps too. In most of the time the dragons have bad morale, you know.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted January 16, 2007 03:49 PM |
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted January 16, 2007 06:10 PM |
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You picture only works because you got lucky with the battle field lay out. The log is positioned so that the dragon's can't get the angle for their fire/acid breath. otherwise they blow right through those peasants and slaughter the marksmen.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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