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| Thread: With Or Without Upgrades? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Darksequence
Hired Hero
For great justice!
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posted February 17, 2007 02:29 AM |
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Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't there 2 heroes in HOMM3 which could upgrade units a second time: magi->enchanters and elves(?)->sharpshooters, concept was good imo.
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Lord_of_Chaos
Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
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posted February 17, 2007 03:13 AM |
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upgraded creatures all the way!
and I like the alternative upgrade idea too
here's an idea:
the archer can upgrade into either the marksman
or he can become a longbowman or something like that
where he has a special ability called long range
which removes the half-battle field restriction
the actual unit itself would have a bigger bow
and differant clothing and such
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 17, 2007 08:19 AM |
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Well with Upg.'s, the upg.'s are for fun, so 
But actually H4 was not that bad for me, I mean it was fun too, yep I like H4, but I prefer Heroes 3...
My HoMM classifying:
Heroes 3
Heroes 2
Heroes 4
Heroes 5
Heroes 1
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted February 17, 2007 12:38 PM |
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Quote:
upgraded creatures all the way!
and I like the alternative upgrade idea too
here's an idea:
the archer can upgrade into either the marksman
or he can become a longbowman or something like that
where he has a special ability called long range
which removes the half-battle field restriction
the actual unit itself would have a bigger bow
and differant clothing and such
What you mean is second option for every upgrade? 
That might be very interesting and gives larger vareity of creatures.
It might do battles of Knight vs Knight more interesting, becuase they won't use exactly the same creatures.
The only problem is that this is complicated. And after you chose one kind of upgrade, you can't change it back.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 01:31 PM |
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Upgrades all the way
Ghoul has nothing to do with Zombie
Do you prefer Walking Dead->Zombie as it was initially intended?
or why not Zombie -> Rotten Corpse
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 17, 2007 01:38 PM |
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Quote:
It might do battles of Knight vs Knight more interesting, becuase they won't use exactly the same creatures.
Because this game forces you to recruit the weekly growth -- aka automatic AI army generation that's why they currently can't use "different" armies 
Quote:
The only problem is that this is complicated. And after you chose one kind of upgrade, you can't change it back.
What do you mean? It will add real strategy to the game instead of the stupid "creeping abuses" or things like that
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 01:48 PM |
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In Warlords Battlecry 3, for example, Ghouls are in the Plague Town while the Zombie is in the Undead Town.
NWN also has a second version of the Ghoul, which is a Ghast, not a Zombie. Zombies are just another category there.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 17, 2007 01:50 PM |
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Well, afaik, ghouls are close to zombies, but not exactly the same (and don't ask me what I mean 'cause I have no idea).
Besides, you said it yourself, Ashra: ghouls are more intelligent, and that contradicts the whole concept of mindless fodder.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 17, 2007 02:14 PM |
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But upgrades are not supposed to be THAT different than the normal versions, so that you won't cry you upgraded everything.
A good idea might be to create more units, ofc. Two different units per tier, with their corresponding upgrades.
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Jospan
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 17, 2007 03:20 PM |
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Yeah, like Zombie Lord said, its an reasonable alternative for the base-creatrue-with-two-upgrades. Two creatures since the beginning, each one with one corresponding upgrade. It would be a sum of Heroes IV + III styles
And please, no less than 7 levels of creatures 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 17, 2007 04:01 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
upgraded creatures all the way!
and I like the alternative upgrade idea too
here's an idea:
the archer can upgrade into either the marksman
or he can become a longbowman or something like that
where he has a special ability called long range
which removes the half-battle field restriction
the actual unit itself would have a bigger bow
and differant clothing and such
What you mean is second option for every upgrade?
That might be very interesting and gives larger vareity of creatures.
It might do battles of Knight vs Knight more interesting, becuase they won't use exactly the same creatures.
The only problem is that this is complicated. And after you chose one kind of upgrade, you can't change it back.
Actually, as long as you'd be able to demolish buildings, it would not be that much of a problem - if your enemy had made another choice than you, you could simply demolish the upgrade and make your own.
People who like this idea might also wanna look into this thread.
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Jospan
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 17, 2007 04:18 PM |
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I really REALLY enjoyed most the creatures propositions in the thread u just pointed, alcibiades. They are very creative, put in theur right place (as alternatives from simillar creatures or so) and would be really cool to see them in the game.
Another thing that makes me defend even more the double-upgrade/dwelling of the towns is because HOMM is a game that forces us to make choices, u CAN'T have everything! (the ability system from all the versions says us so)
This way, u would need to chose, as example of that thread, from having a flyer level 6 creature as the Griffin Knight (really liked this one ) or the stronger, ground Champion/Cavalier!
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Lord_of_Chaos
Known Hero
Chaotic Entity
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posted February 17, 2007 05:55 PM |
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@ alcibiades
yea exacly,
you would have an alternate upgrade for the unit,
so when upgrading you choose the building that you want
and then build it so you can recruit that particualr upgraded unit,
but if you wanted the other upgrade you could demolish the corresponding building and rebuild it as the alternate one, but there would be limitations like: if there are still creatures in the building when demolished they all die or you wouldnt be able to recruit the creatures, demolish the building,rebuild it and recruit the new ones; demolishing would count as a turn in your town and creatures from the rebuilt dwelling wouldnt appear until the next week.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 17, 2007 07:50 PM |
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I've got to say that variable upgrade times are the best and that's why I voted for HoMM II.
That way four factions won't have dragons.
It made the game much interesting.
Definitely one of the reasons HoMM II still rocks.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted February 18, 2007 12:38 AM |
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Even though idea of 2 upgrades was debated prior to h5, i don't think it is the good way to go...
Try to imagine whole faction with that system and you will soon run into trap of having too many units of same type. We now have tanks, fliers (cavalry is similar to this), shooters and casters spread into 7 levels; with 2 possible upgrades there would be 14 possible levels of final units, so you would end in either picking 4+ shooter units or 4+ casters or 4+ fliers for your final army...
In the end you would probably pick the same units all over again and fall into same trap H4 had...
Idea sounds good until you try to make more of it.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 18, 2007 02:08 AM |
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Quote:
Even though idea of 2 upgrades was debated prior to h5, i don't think it is the good way to go...
Try to imagine whole faction with that system and you will soon run into trap of having too many units of same type. We now have tanks, fliers (cavalry is similar to this), shooters and casters spread into 7 levels; with 2 possible upgrades there would be 14 possible levels of final units, so you would end in either picking 4+ shooter units or 4+ casters or 4+ fliers for your final army...
In the end you would probably pick the same units all over again and fall into same trap H4 had...
Idea sounds good until you try to make more of it.
I think that is a very important point, and I agree completely that the above could be a pitfall. The only way to solve this problem would be to very carefully ballance which creatures you offered as alternatives - thus you could have:
Offensive Caster vs. Deffensive Caster
Shooter vs. Caster
Flyer vs. Cavalry
Walker vs. Tank
But not:
Flyer vs. Tank
Shooter vs. Walker
etc.
Of course, some liberty could be allowed, but by carefully matching the units, you could still offer alternative, without opening the option for, say, 5 shooters / casters in one town, which would obviously be grossly overpowered (combine it with a tank or two  ).
One can argue that such a carefull matching of units will take away the variability, and that may be true. However, I still think there would be valid options for interesting units - thus, comparing to Heroes 3 you can have the classical Sharpshooter vs. Grand Elf dilemma (what is best - double shoot or no range penalty?); you can have a fragile offensive caster vs. a strong defensive caster (Inquisitor vs. Zealot); you can offer the choice of a tanky unit that does little damage or an offensive yet vulnerable cavalry unit (Hydra vs. Gorgon), etc. This will open for some interesting tactical aspects and still it should be able to retain game and faction balance.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 18, 2007 09:44 AM |
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@Alc: Good post and interesting opinions for the offensive and the defensuve creature, but I think that everything here depend on the player's strategy.
Yes creatures like Gargoyles are tanks, and Treants too. Vampires Lords are offensive creatures (not walker, not flyer --- teleporter) Yes? you can use them for defense too if this is your strategy. Shooters are not offensive creatures. In my opinion they are defensive creatures, just then they protect the creatures in your army, like the casters but this is my strategy. And my strategy is defensive, very defensive...
You just can't sort the creatures like this some players use walkers for attack, other for defence...
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 18, 2007 07:46 PM |
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Great ideas Alc
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alchemist85
Hired Hero
Disciple(s II) of Desert
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posted February 20, 2007 08:21 PM |
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Quote:
IHave the basic units and then 2 choices for upgrades...so for example with haven you could choose which way to go for each unit...but the costs would be different...and of course the other factions would need the choices too. Maybe not even for every unit so it doesn't get too confusing but certainly for some units.
Yeah, that would be intersting. But it would destroy unniqueness of "Disciples" series, which based on choises for some tiers of each creatures.
So, although that would be great, I wouldn't like it, because I guess those games HoMM and Disciples would look much more and more similar 
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shassz
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 17, 2007 11:10 PM |
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Edited by shassz at 23:23, 17 Jul 2007.
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Down with the upgrade system of H5 Sorrowly I cant vote anymore but Id vote for partial upgrades H2 style. This uniform upgrade system is a bit dumb and mostly upgraded creatures are superior to the unupgraded ones and renders them useless. The only thing ppl say against this that they buy unupgraded units cause they are cheaper. I think its bad game design but youre free to think whatever you wish.
Edit: Hohoho. Genielord opened the poll prolly and Ive voted for partial upgrades. ty
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