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| Thread: The Best Shooter in HoMM5 - Round 1 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted February 18, 2007 05:43 PM |
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Anyway, I'll pick one from this list.
I has to be the Titan. It can function as shooter and as attacker, he has No Melee Penality ability and 6 speed.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 18, 2007 05:45 PM |
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I wouldn't say so. After all each splitted stack gets two attacks on its own so so even with decreased chances it would still be good. I think.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 18, 2007 05:53 PM |
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Nah. Someone did the calculations already and seems that it's rather pointless to split.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 18, 2007 06:01 PM |
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Then can you point me to the thread?
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 18, 2007 06:07 PM |
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Just facts
Shooters survival %, posted by Doom:
Titanz: 84%
Skirmishers: 61%
Succubi Miss. : 60%
Marksmen 46%
M.Gremlins: 42%
Master Hunters: 34%
Assassins: 31%
Skellies 30%
I really don't know the best one  , but:
The best one is not the Assassin - Range Penalty, and the Poisonous Attack do not work on Undeads and elementals
The best one is not the Master Gremlin - Good only in Academy army, and weak too...
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted February 18, 2007 06:21 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 18:21, 18 Feb 2007.
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Well yeah...it's not the best I voted for. All shooters are quite good in their own right...even Assassins have their uses (but it is not their ranged damage  ) I could give reasons why any of those can be the most usefull one in certain situations. So the vote merely went for my personal favourite.
In general I like creatures that are capable of dealing damage to multiple enemies. But Succubus Mistress has the ultimate advantage of dealing damage to even creatures that are in the opposite corners of the battlefield...No other creature can do the same.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 18, 2007 06:37 PM |
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Hmmm, I'm really not that much of a unit theoretist, but I'll give it a shot.
First off, I have to assume that we are talking "overall best" and not "1 on 1" best (because otherwise, the Titan would obviously rule over anybody).
Succubi
I'm a bit surprised that so many here consider the Succubi to be among the best. Sure, the Chain Shot ability is good, but their damage is pretty average for their level with a huge range (6 - 13 where average of level 4 is 6.8 - 12.3). Totalling the damage done through chainshot (187.5 % damage) and applying Range Penalty, that yields a total damage of 5.6 - 12.2, which is not particularly great - especially not considering the poor stats of only 6 / 6. Of course the Demon Lords huge Attack bonus is going to help out on this, but Archery is an unlikely choice for the Demon Lord, considering the sole appearance of Succubi as ranged in the Inferno army. Range Penalty of course only applies for long shots, but considering that the Succubi are the only ranged units of the Inferno, you should not expect them to get many shots at full range: Inferno is not a faction that holds back, Inferno rushes in, leaving the Succubi behind.
All the above consideres only the unit abilities and stats, and much of the power of Inferno indeed comes from Hero abilities. Gating in Succubi will increase your numbers, although an Initiative of 10 will mean that additional forces will be a long time in coming. Swift Gating obviously will help out in this, but the question will be whether you can afford to rely on this strategy rather than getting your shots while you can before the Succubi become blocked. Then there is the matter of Hellfire, with which I must admit I'm not that familiar. Hellfire adds 50 + 5 x Power damage, and drains 5 mana from Hero. This has the distinct disadvantage that added damage will be negligable in late-game on large maps, where army sizes are considerable (a spellpower 20 Hero will add 150 damage). In campaign settings, on the other hand, and in early rushes, such abilities can be a great help, and in this context, the Succubi obviously shines, as Shauku83 pointed out. It might become extremely taxing on Hero mana, however.
Finally, there's the Ranged Retaliation, an ability that imo. often is overrated. It's certainly a pain in the ... - perhaps even the most annoying ability, as I have a tendency to forgetting it, letting my 5 archers target the Succubi before realizing the consequenzes.  It is, however, not really a life-saver, even though it may buy you an extra shot (or time to do that gating trick) because enemy will favor moving in with melee units rather than using ranged attacks to take them out. Against armies with offensive casters (Wizards and Rangers in particular) this ability will be of little help, because Mages, Titans and Druids will take out Succubi without suffering retaliation.
Overall conclusion: Succubi is to my experience not the best ranged unit. This comes both from units own properties, and from the fact that Inferno oftenmost focuses on melee rather than ranged attacks. A great back-up unit, however.
Master Hunter
The Master Hunter is a good all-round unit, though it doesn't shine in that many aspects. Its statistics are good although not impressive (Attack and Defence are average for level, whereas damage 5-8 is a bit above average for level - notice that this number is the actual damage of the unit, whereas the listed minotaur damage is damage per attack). Initiative 10 is deffinitely a weakness in the Sylvan army dominated by high-Initiative units. Its all-redeaming quality is the Double Shot ability, that will give you two chances for the Warding Arrow ability to trigger (a 0.2 multiplier to ATB is not all-powerfull, but helpfull none-the-less) as well as two chances for good luck (notice, however, that since the Hunter does only 50 % damage on each of its shots, good luck on one shot will equal 150 % damage, where normaly units do 200 % damage on good luck). Still, with the Sylvan affinity for Luck (and the related abilities Soldier's Luck (more chance for Warding Arrow) and Elven Luck (additional 25 % bonus to Luck damage)) this is an extremely usefull ability.
The Master Hunter also takes up a much more important place in the Sylvan army than the Succubus does in the Infernal army. The combination of the powerfull Master Hunter at level 3 and Elder Druid at level 4 means that the Sylvan tactic generally will be one of holding back, letting the archers do the first weakening strikes and moving in Sprites as a Hit'n'Run unit. This also means that the Ranger will have better reason for focusing on skills to boost the ranged power - Archery generally is a healthy choice to my experience, although this rules out Flaming Arrows which is required for Nature's Luck - and Avenger, that will boost the damage off all the ranger Units against favored enemies, will have double chance to occur for the Master Hunter.
The Master Hunter is not without its weaknesses, however. Its base growth is a meager 7, and its HP of only 14 does nothing to preserve it. This is the lowest of any level 3 units (after the buffing of the Spectre), and even though Magic Aura of the Unicorns will help against magical attacks, the Hunters will not last long when succumbed to enemy ranged power. This fact can prove devastating when engaged in a battle against an enemy hero skilled in Dark Magic (slow will most likely make your Hunters go after the other ranged units) and you may want to hold your Sprites ready to Cleanse them in case this should happen.
Overall conclusions: The Master Hunter is a great unit. It's capable of doing considerable damage when lead by the Hero with the right skill, and are crucial during the Sylvan creeping. The unit is, however, extremely weak, and you will not rely on this unit as the backbone of your army during a decisive battle.
Titan
There's not much to say about the Titan. It's weaknesses are just as clear-cut as its strengths. Its large and not too fast, and being a level 7 might come into game too late in poor maps (though it's my impression the re-balancing of unit costs has changed this - I have not had opportunity to play Academy for a while). Its HP are deffinitely on the low side for a level 7. On the other hand, it has excellent stats, it has a wide damage range but huge damage potential, its immunities are top-of-the-line, and no melee-penalty ensures a great all-round use even when they get blocked. The Call Lightning ability is dissapointing, however, to my experience this ability will rarely be attacktive due to low damage potential, though it will allow you to attack ranged even when blocked by a very tough stack (usefull against teleported Pit Lords for sure).
As for the Wizard, his skills are unlikely to do much for the Titan in terms of direct buffing - Attack comes rarely to the Wizard, thus making Archery an unlikely albeit attracktive choice for the Wizard. On the other hand, the Artificer skill can do great things for the Titan. Extra Initiative especially will be an attractive choice, making the Titan the only ranged unit above level 1 with an Initiative higher than 10.
Overall conclusions: The Titan is without discussion a formidable unit. Its tactical disadvantages will be a problem, particularly coupled with its not too impressive HP, even though abilities like no melee penalty and call lightning compensates for this. It seems to me, however, that the all-important factor for the importance of the Titan in the game will be when you're able to buy it. On rich maps, it might be one of the best ranged units, in poor maps, there's little chance it'll come into game.
Marksman
The Marksman very soon established its role as all-defining for the game. There's little reason to go into details with this. The question is, then, whether the Markman has been dethroned with the new Training system, and I don't know this yet, because I haven't played 2.1 yet. It shall be no secret that I had hoped for another solution to the Training problem, because it seems now that they moved the ballance issue from the marksman to the Paladin (training 13 Paladins a week seems pretty broken - but I'm drifting off topic). The Marksman, even without taken into acount the Training skill, is still a very powerfull unit. It's max damage of 8 is extreme at level 2, and with a maximum damage equal to four times the minimum damage, this unit screams for a Divine Strength spell - which you'll have guaranteed accessible at advanced level through your Inquisitors. 10 HP is not a lot, but with a base growth of 12, you have a higher HP growth for this unit than for the Master Hunter! The Precise Shot ability, obviously, is all-powerfull in combination with Tactics and a handful of Peasants.
To add to the all-round nice properties of the unit, the Knight has accessiblity to a range of nice skills and abilities that will help this unit. Archery is a nice choice, and will be available for the taking because the branch skills of Attack (Retribution and Power Of Speed) puts no restrictions on your choice of abilities in this skill. Furthermore, since Power Of Speed is an unlikely choice for many Knights (as it required Dark Magic), a very nifty combination would be Archery, Tactics and Retribution. Retribution works well with the nice because he has easy access to Leadership, which will also open up for the extremely usefull Divine Guidance ability, that will allow your Hero to increase the ATB value of the Marksmen by 0.33, making them act much more frequently. Light Magic is another good choice for the Knight, that will give access to a number of Mass-buffs, and not least the Ressurection spell, which will obviously increase the durability of your Marksmen. To top things off, Archangels should be very accessible in newer versions of the game due to modifications in Training, giving easy access to Resurrection.
Overall review: As I see it, the Marksman probably still stands as the best ranged unit. This is not only because of the internal properties of the unit, but also because it is so easily accessible and will have perfect backup in a full Haven army including Inquisitors (Divine Strength), Paladins (Cleansing) and Archangels (Resurrection). Even with Training being changed, meaning that Marksmen are no longer a joke, they are still an extremely usefull unit, that you can depend on in early as well as late game.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 18, 2007 07:32 PM |
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Totally agree with alc 
Well, the only thing I'd correct is that titans can't come on non-rich maps.. cause they can, 5 gems for colossi dwelling - lol, and if you've taken the resource silo early or got several piles of gems, the titans are the easiest upgraded level 7 to get.. and in fact they are easier to get than Thanes. Nonupgraded level 6. Pathetic if you ask me 
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 18, 2007 08:34 PM |
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I think every shooter has their 'special' uses:
Skirmisher: I don't have HoF so I can't tell about this
Master Hunter: I voted for this one, because it can do incredible damage with his 'double strike' (well, they don't excell in survability but...)
Skeleton Archer: This one is not such a good ranged creature (of course, not with the old necromancy). But it can be improved with Battle Frenzy and Vitality (these abilities work best with Skeletons (and Peasants), as you have lots of them per week)
Succubus Mistress: It does not shine in stats, but with Chain Shot and HellFire it can be a powerful creature. Its Ranged Retaliation is also something great, as the enemy won't be able to attack them with ranged units if they don't want an extra attack by the Succubi
Marksman: Although it seems strong and deals a HUGE damage for a tier 2 creature, the marksman has only initiative 8. It's slow as a tank! The Precise Shot ability can be very useful but has only a range of 3 tiles. Here, the range of precise shot:
------+++M
-------+++
-------+++
---------+
As you can see, you must block your Marksmen with small units for precise shot to be effective (when the enemy attacks your blockers, of course)
Nevertheless, the marksman is a great unit and the core shooter of the Haven army
Assassin: this unit is great only with its Poisunous Attack or maybe at melee fight, when the enemy comes to block the Shadow Matriarchs Target the level 7 and 6 units and watch as they take Poison damage and die
Titan: being a tier 7 unit, it may seem the best, although it is in the Academy forces and won't have a great Att/Def boost by the hero. I have to confess that once I had 14 ATT with a level 18 Faiz - maybe from Arenas and arties and such!! (ok, a bit off topic...)
Gremlin: I don't know, but this one seems pathetic. I mean, it has higher stats than the Skeleton, but being in an Academy town makes sure it does not have boosts like Battle Frenzy or +x ATT from the hero.
Fire Elemental: I don't know what to say here, I don't often play with elementals (in fact, i never did
oh yeah, I like Alc's ideas and agree with them
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted February 18, 2007 08:41 PM |
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fire elemental- 2nd best health, average attack, fire sheild (always nice) and 50 shots!
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 19, 2007 12:32 AM |
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If consider only the stats and growth of the units, then the titan is the best. No question.  BTW call lightening is actually a great ability. Imagine an unblockable shooter! And in some other cases this ability equals no retaliation or no range penalty.
But if we consider everything, then the best is not titan, nor master hunter, nor succubus mistress, but inquisitors. Because you can train 20 of them per week! And the common strategy for haven in version 2.1 should be training footmen into inquisitors IMHO and thus they become the backbone of haven.
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cookie
Adventuring Hero
*cookie magic*
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posted February 19, 2007 02:33 AM |
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Edited by cookie at 02:34, 19 Feb 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
GenieLord, You really should learn to read:
Quote:
(only shooter not caster!)
But still, we can't ignore all the great shooters that can also cast!
The Preist and the Lich can't cast and they are not in the list. The Inquisitor spells are just bonus, basicly, he's shooter. Same thing with the Arch Lich.
It's like saying: Let's do a poll of the best flayer, except of large creatures.
You amused me genielord. 
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted February 19, 2007 12:23 PM |
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As I guessed. Split between the sucubbi, hunters and titans.
Actually my favourite are the hunters, but with Demon Lords the succubi mistress can a) gate b) retailiate c) deal chain shot
which is pretty great.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 19, 2007 02:38 PM |
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Well seeing as Alcibiades pretty much summed it up for most creatures, I won't go into details right now btw I am a guy who votes for "power/price", otherwise of course Titans are the coolest  Anyway, I won't go into hero-boosts as that is not really the "shooter" that does the thing, but with the aid of the hero.. since this is about shooters alone, well
Master Gremlin: Good creature for it's low price.. In fact, it's much better than the skeleton. It's initiative is above average for shooters (11) and the damage is quite good. In an Academy army, he's even better, as he can also repair fallen golems. Actually it's a very good creature, for only 35 gold -- you can't really expect more from such a price
Skeleton Archer: Quite a poor creature. It's damage is average like the Gremlin, but is an averagely fast shooter with init 10. That means, with only 1 attack, that it won't shine in offense, though the survivability is not bad, but lesser than the Master Gremlin.. The skellie is not that much of an attention, but can be very useful when placed near Liches, because enemy will definetely block these large shooters -- and then they will be in "close range" of the skeletons, which doubles their damage. Anyway, for 30 gold, I don't think it can stand up against the Master Gremlin 
Assassin: I won't comment much on this "shooter" because I prefer to use him as a melee fighter instead of ranged shooter -- however against tier 7s, the poisoned crossbow is awesome because it ignores their high defense -- very useful to see a second "decay" applied on them, if you're Lethos
Marksman: The uber damage range, yes.. it has four times the maximum damage than the minimum, which means he craves for a Divine strength blessing... but also falls easy to a Weakness curse.. Actually most overestimate him because opponents usually don't have a Weakness spell, and even then the Archlich is the best anti-marksman caster. The huge damage range is a little imbalanced I think -- note I said imbalanced not overpowered. Marksman depends too much on random -- "will I kill 400 or 100 Imps with my marksmen?" is a hard question to ask and predict because of his damage range.. Precise shot is overestimated by most. Not that it's not good, but it doesn't have such a large range, and by then almost all other stacks will be dead.. marksmen will benefit from Squires, but I do not see why you couldn't hire some squires if you had an additional Haven town at your disposal (anoter player's town or random town).. So I'm not that marksman freak, but his damage is awesome for only 90 gold... anyway, aren't all tanks that way? Like ZombieLord said, marksmen are slow tanks... like Horned Overseers, yes
Master Hunter: Very good offensive unit, very poor survivability. In fact, 14 HP don't seem very low, but at the cost of 190 gold? It's just too plain low. That HP is compensated for it's high damage -- although the Hunter can be easily wiped out by any other shooter if it acts first, it has an average initiative, therefore ensures an almost 50% chance to act before the enemy shooter -- therefore shooting first. And it's Warding Arrows special allows him to slow down it's target even more, possibly until your fast creatures can reach the enemy shooters and block them until they fire. A good tactic for blocking Hunters is to use either Treants or Unicorns -- the best defensive block would be with both if you have Tactics ability. The reason about using Unicorns is that they have a 30% magic protection, and Hunters are easy prey for destructive magic. The 30% chance increases their survival at least, in some cases.. it's never bad.
Succubus Mistress: Strong shooter not because of it's stats. Placing the Succubus inside a barricade will ensure she will not be attacked, so most enemies will probably get near in her close range. That's because, with Ranged Retaliation, enemy won't dare to attack this creature as easily as they attack other shooters, with their own ranged units.. Say for example, Marksman probably have no fear attacking Hunters, but Succubus... it will retaliate therefore ensure less damage suffered from enemy ranged shooters -- or at least if they don't want to suffer a retaliation, with Chain shot, another good ability, boosting their total damage up to around 187% if there are enough enemy stacks.. Overall it's not a very "strong" shooter to depend, but I rated it strong because of her cost which is about 350 gold each -- not too much at least.
Titan: First, Titans are tier 7s, therefore ultra expensive. They are powerful, at least I find them much more powerful than Arch devils, who seriously need an improvement, but at their 4700 gold.. hmm I wonder if Nival realize the power of the Angel at 4200 gold . Anyway, the Titan has great shooting offensive potential due to it's high damage, but at this cost I wouldn't be so confident.. his No Melee Penalty is very welcome due to his Large Creature ability, which ensures he will be blocked easily. The Call Lightning is also useful, especially against creatures with High defense that are in far range.. or when blocked... or during sieges, where the normal attack does 25% damage.. so I think overall it's a good shooter, but with 190 HP at 4700 gold well tier 7s are expensive so...
Anyway I think I have shown my summary of the shooters. Most of the stuff I have in mind or I wrote is covered by Alc anyway
ps: I don't know what to vote exactly.. since the Lich is not there (and I like Necro), I will probably choose the Hunter since Sylvan is my 2nd favorite, and it is also a good shooter, but lacks strong HP.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 19, 2007 02:54 PM |
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Quote:
Titan: First, Titans are tier 7s, therefore ultra expensive. They are powerful, at least I find them much more powerful than Arch devils, who seriously need an improvement, but at their 4700 gold.. hmm I wonder if Nival realize the power of the Angel at 4200 gold . Anyway, the Titan has great shooting offensive potential due to it's high damage, but at this cost I wouldn't be so confident.. his No Melee Penalty is very welcome due to his Large Creature ability, which ensures he will be blocked easily. The Call Lightning is also useful, especially against creatures with High defense that are in far range.. or when blocked... or during sieges, where the normal attack does 25% damage.. so I think overall it's a good shooter, but with 190 HP at 4700 gold well tier 7s are expensive so...
Let's see.. the obvious weaknesses of titans are:
1. range penalty.. no, seriously. That cuts their damage by half.. makes their ranged attack damage equal to nightmare's damage.. which isn't that impressive, isn't it? So, if it can't get full range, it won't do much.
2. 2 hex.. well, all level7s are big creatures, but all large shooters tend to suck cuz you cannot protect them and they get blocked within first turn.
3. The points above make titan a melee unit (gets blocked fast and even if he manages to shot in his first turn, it won't be hot), which obviosly loses to Archdevil you consider a "wimp". Archdevils will hit harder (due to demonlords' attack, even though its damage/week is 10 point lower than titan's), have higher initiative, they are faster, they fly and they have great special opposed to crappy call lightning of titans. Worth the 500 gold, IMO. Besides, is 500 gold that much? I don't think so.
About the marksmen.. I don't see a problem with weakness. Inquisitors are there, who would want to cast weakness on marksmen if it gets immediately re-done by inquisitors? Or, hero? Or, paladins? Endless posibilities here. Precise shot is bad? Come on man, shield them with squires, and the enemy has to go after them.. he has to put his melee unit next to the blocking squire, in range of the precise shot.. or you will never reach marksmen, sine you have to take care of squires first. Oh, and advanced bless is always there, same for haste (hello inquisitors).
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 19, 2007 03:08 PM |
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Well, Inquisitors vs Archlich you mean? Inquisitor casts bless, Archlich casts curse.. and yeah, Archlich has it on Expert and more mana for weakness
anyway, Knight hero has only 8% to show Light magic, and besides, Divine Strength is not always present, mind you.. or if you live with the idea of "always phoenix in the guild for MMR" then why "always divine strength in the guild" huh?
Necros have more chances to get weakness than Knight.. you don't get Light all the time with Knight, but Dark with necro? Raven even has a speciality for Weakness spell
Protected by Squires? So what.. you attack squires, you lose 1 stack due to slow marksmen.. By the time they get to shoot again, squires = dead and marksmen = blocked..
And there are so nice counters for tanky marksmen, because destructive or wasp swarm or freeze = maybe they will shoot once in the battle. My impression on them was rated from "creature perspective" not involving heroes or any boosts (like Dougal).. but if you really wanted, counters are everywhere.
About titans: Yeah, they will probably shoot once, so they get No retaliation.. about the half damage, well the Titan at least does some damage from ranged, while the Devil does 0. And the No Melee Penalty ensures he's no weaker at melee either.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted February 20, 2007 08:18 AM |
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@GLord:
Yes there will be best flyer instead of best large creature, and this is more fair, one large creature is caster one is flayer, so the best is?
Archlich vs. Earht Elemental - walker vs. caster, so no results.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 01:22 PM |
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Hey guys (especially GLord) flayer and flyer are two different words that have nothing to do with one or the other
flayed human = human without skin you know... i don't know how to explain
and I think you all know what means 'fly', right?
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted February 20, 2007 01:42 PM |
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My vote goes to master hunters no doubt
But they are that strong not only because of double shot, but also supported by f.enemy and luck, and with warding arrows, they can "push" the enemy shooter's turn away. Bad point is that die too easily so they might not get a chance to shoot in every game.
Still i prefer them the most They;re perhaps the only shooter besides marksmen who can clear most stacks with their shot.
My 2nd best shooter undoubtly would be marksmen, but teleport spell is badly needed to do that precise shot sometimes. They would be first if initiative is higher
Titans might make a good shooter, but as a level 7, its too much of a waste to be a shooter because dragons deal 2 tile damage with no range penalty. They do look good, but ends up not doing much in final battle.
Gremlims in good numbers might do quite some damage but still not quite enough unless go for battle frenzy,which usually isn't learned with wizards. But usually they're used to creep more with the repair ability and with speed = 5, they can play hide and seek with the golems and zombies
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted February 20, 2007 01:46 PM |
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[qoute]they can play hide and seek with the golems and zombies
lol I did that once with Skeleton versus many Conscripts (the battlefield was also favorable, as it had a huge almost-round obstacle and I ran away around it)
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