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| Thread: Disecting the Tower... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Maniac
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2002 09:15 PM |
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Units:
1. Master Gremlins - the only level 1 shooter. Really useful but need to be protected because they are very fragile. Become less useful later in the game. And in the end they're just kamikazes taking damage from others.
2. Obsidian Gorgoyles - an average unit.
3. Iron Golems - really good units. Very sturdy. Their only drawback is speed but haste will fix it a bit. Very useful in sieges.
4. Archmages - good shooters. No wall penalty is useful.
5. Master Genies - not good. Fragile, weak, and not especially fast. Magic isn't very useful either because of it's randomness. And too expensive...
6. Naga Queens - one of the best level 6. Very sturdy, packs a good punch and no retalation is very useful. But they are slow and expensive.
7. Titans - the only level 7 shooter. Good stats, no melee penalty and mind shield make this a good unit but it's slow and expensive.
Special Buildings:
Wall of Knowledge - not very good.
Library - veeeeeeeery useful.
Observation Tower - piece of snow.
The grail is very good if found early-mid game.
Mage Guild:
Has good spells like: haste, lighting, chain lighting, fly, dimension door, counterstrike and others.
Overall:
I only recently realised it's not a very good town. before that I thought it to be the best because I like shooters. But now I see it's weaknesses: slow army (fastest 11 !), expensive, only few above average units. Of course it has it's advantages: three good shooters, good mage guild, library, nagas/titans being very powerful (but expensive). This town requires lots of thinking to be played well and if putting that thinking in other towns Tower wouldn't stand a chance against most of them.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted December 28, 2004 11:02 AM |
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Revived.
Still some Tower addicted players around?..
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Farsnik
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 27, 2005 12:39 AM |
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Gremlins
Master Gremlins are the greatest thing since sliced
bread. The gremlin upgrade is definately in my first
week, if not day one. I'm not a big fan of the genies
(personaly, they don't feel right), but I can just stick
them in the back and have them cast goodies on my big
baddis (as well as that 500+ group of gremlins I keep
amassing). The one thing I dislike about tower...theres
no hero that specializes in Gremlins...Oh the humanity.
You'll rue the day you underestimated Gremlins.
Of course, having a gremmy hero would be kind of...
well...cheep.
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sirzapdos
Promising
Famous Hero
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
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posted January 27, 2005 12:55 AM |
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It was stated in another thread, but I'll repeat it.
The probable reason that there are no heroes with specialty of Centaurs, Pikemen or Gremlins is because they were found to be too strong in playtesting. Plus, before the first patch, Gremlin rushes were possible, so, factor that into the mix, it would be totally unfair.
Not to mention, if Shakti can start off with over 100 Trogs, what would the Gremlin start with? 200 gremlins? Um yeah, that would own everything.
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So I try to live a complicated world...
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2005 01:46 AM |
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a centaur or pikeman specialty doesn't make sense, but a skellie one does?
I don't quite follow you there.
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 27, 2005 09:14 AM |
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Maybe it has to do with the Master Gremlins' range, as opposed to the Skeletons' melee? Or perhaps it's to do with the Tower having all those ranged units? The Necropolis has a single ranged attacker, so it might balance out that way.
-guitarguy
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TheScholar
Hired Hero
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posted January 27, 2005 01:04 PM |
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Well, well. I don't really know why I bother to give any comments to this topic, it seems it has been exhaustively analysed allready.
But anyway, I very often play against Tower, a friend of mine is a total Tower-addict. So I think I have a good deal of experience playing against them and additionally I have tried out different castles myself. I needs to be specified that I practically always play on X-Large and Large maps (preferably with underworld.)
On such grand scale maps, Tower generally fares well. In fact, I am inclined to believe that Tower possesses the most homogenic and well balanced of all armies. Much of its strength lies in the fact the a tower player may "wait out" his attackers in a battle. When a Titan is standing there constantly pounding you from distance, you need to attack rather quickly. However, for most other castles, they will only be able to get a couple of troops over quickly enough. And these will be food for Naga Queens, Arch Magis and possibly Golems.
The problem for Tower, as pointed out several times, is strictly financial. One week's upgraded production costs almost 31000, and that is the most expensive by quite a bit. So it is definitely crucial for a Tower player to achieve a good income as early as possible (particularly when playing on a large map.)
Apart from this, Tower heroes are generally not good. It is a stedfast truth that Magic-Heroes stand no real chance against Might-Heroes, and Tower has no good might-heroes, except for Neela, who is propably too good, as are all armorer-heroes. (Which therefore should be banned, really.)
My advice for Tower-players is to find a good might-hero, such as Orrin, Crag Hack, Gundula (presupposing that armorer-heroes are banned, naturally.) In addition, one should try to find the orb of inhibition. It is ironic that Tower will profit from a non-magic combat, but true. If no magic may be cast, The Tower army is very strong on its own, and has very few weaknesses. Some speed problems, but normally the tower just waits for the opponent to come over anyway. Do not under any circumstance let a tower hero put his titans in a corner, shielded by all other troops. In other words, when playing against tower, open tactics, for God's sake.
So.. There is surely much more to be said, but I will leave it here. I underline again that what I have just claimed goes first and formost for very big maps. On smaller maps, other rules and conditions apply....
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted January 27, 2005 01:16 PM |
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I don't quite understand why you see Armorer specialty as overpowered, while Offense specialty is perfectly fair.
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted January 27, 2005 01:54 PM |
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Edited By: tigris on 27 Jan 2005
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Quote:
In fact, I am inclined to believe that Tower possesses the most homogenic and well balanced of all armies. Much of its strength lies in the fact the a tower player may "wait out" his attackers in a battle. When a Titan is standing there constantly pounding you from distance, you need to attack rather quickly.
I didn't fully understand the meaning of your post(what does homogenic really means?), but about the "wait out" plan you have describe, this may work agains the AI, but against a real person who has the inspiration of having tactics(let's picture a battle tower vs stronghold) and casts mass slow or haste begining round one, then atacks you with 5 units before you even have the chance to realize what's happening this is highly unlikely.Tower seems to me like a town you would play on small maps where the use of magic can help you,and hwer you can still!! use the superiority of your shooters.Tower has low HP ratio/week and it's super expensive.Master gremlins are useful when clearing the map, but in end fight you cannot bring them in decent numgers as most of them are lost till then.Obsidian gargoyles are average(goodfor taking retaliation and blocking archers).Golems are dangerous but slow.This is a good unit for tower.Magi are good shooters, but could have use a cool speciality along(maybe similar to the medusas or unicorns).Master genies are weak, virtually worthlwess in battle.Naga is the main priority round 1 so how much can they help you anyway?They're also slow.Titans are good,they can deal damage and have high HP.they balance things up for tower.Still not enough IMHO!
@edit: I had a game with Tower today and actually i loved it!I got 2nd and 3rd native heroes day 1 in the tavern, and so i was able to take a naga dwelling right away with fodder losses.Also cleared banks and stores week 1, got 25 arch magi from pan box and then killed 48 war unicorns week 2 day 5.This was my fastest break yet on jebus l no under.
Who would have thought i would do it with Tower?
I guess i should take back what i said earlier...
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Zsa
Famous Hero
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posted January 27, 2005 05:56 PM |
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Quote:
Maybe it has to do with the Master Gremlins' range, as opposed to the Skeletons' melee? Or perhaps it's to do with the Tower having all those ranged units? The Necropolis has a single ranged attacker, so it might balance out that way.
-guitarguy
it doesn't matter if it's ranged, what's the big deal. The master gremlins are only useful in the first two weeks and that's it most of the time. After that they suck, and an MG specialist won't change that at all.
What i'm trying to say is MGs suck big time compared to the power of the skellies, no question about that. I mean i can't harvest gremlins :\. The skellie specialty is by far the best one.
So what if tower has 3 ranged units... i don't follow you here. Again I don't get what you mean with the necropolis having only one ranged attacker.
Anyway, I see tower as a pretty weak town. Low speed, expensive, crap heroes.
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 27, 2005 06:40 PM |
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A short unofficial lecture on range advantage: *the big deal*
Quote:
it doesn't matter if it's ranged, what's the big deal. The master gremlins are only useful in the first two weeks and that's it most of the time. After that they suck, and an MG specialist won't change that at all.
What i'm trying to say is MGs suck big time compared to the power of the skellies, no question about that. I mean i can't harvest gremlins :\. The skellie specialty is by far the best one.
So what if tower has 3 ranged units... i don't follow you here. Again I don't get what you mean with the necropolis having only one ranged attacker.
Anyway, I see tower as a pretty weak town. Low speed, expensive, crap heroes.
It was a suggestion. Suggestion, man! =(
Anyway, I'm talking about how some folks really enjoy using range to their advantage. That means not letting the enemy get up close to disable the missles. That said, range can be really powerful at times. Master Gremlins can shoot, while other Level Ones can't (*Potential advantage*). They are not the most powerful, but can damage from afar, nevertheless. The player need only gather up his Gremlins and buy the Workshop upgrade and he's on his way. That was my point.
Since Tower has three ranged units, they don't have to get close to the enemy to dish out some real pain. Add to the Master Gremlins the Arch Magi and Titans; that's quite a force. Provided these units don't get tied up early in combat, they'll have a few rounds to throw their bolts or whatever at the opposing side, greatly aiding the supporting ground troops. The Necropolis only has the Lich for range support. Unless they dump the Zombies  and split up the Liches, they've got only one ranged stack to work with. You can forget this if bad morale is negated; then you can mix the necro armies with whatever ranged unit from whatever town you want.
So...if the designers thought that range was too big an advantage for a single town type, then that could've been a reason for not making a Gremlin-bonus hero. It's all in theory, but it's possible. Furthermore, they might have been big advocates of Skeleton-hoarding, so maybe that's why the Necro heroes' bonuses saw the light of day. But, of course, if you hate the Tower armies that much, then by all means you'll think everything from Master Gremlins to Titans are just a crappy idea.
-guitarguy
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Farsnik
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 27, 2005 11:10 PM |
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More Gremlins
I believe there to be three types of game players:
Casual Gamer
Power Gamer
Role Player
They're really self explanitory, and we're all a bit of
each. And each of these areas dramatically effects your
play style. I play tower for the love of the concept,
and because it suits my play style very well. I also
think the people in general like to take things (like
star wars for example) and make them their own, with out
a worry about what the creator was going for. Many
people express their opinions in this manner.
I can't for anything play dungeon, I can't tell you why,
and I'm rather fond of the Evil Eyes, but the style and
concept are alien to me, even though the tactics are very
similar to Tower. I'm not saying that dungeon is bad,
infact, its very cool. In game it would be like telling
as wizard to take command of a Dungeon, he'd quit right
there and tell you where to stick you sword.
The appeal of the Tower town is found with the sit back
and shoot approach as described so many times before
this post and the concept.
PS: Day One: 60+ Master Gremlins. That always brings a
smile to my face.
On a side note: Skeletons may have a Skelly Hero, but
I've never taken him, I'd rather have the Vampy Hero.
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted January 28, 2005 01:02 AM |
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Quote:
Anyway, I'm talking about how some folks really enjoy using range to their advantage. That means not letting the enemy get up close to disable the missles.nt.
But, of course, if you hate the Tower armies that much, then by all means you'll think everything from Master Gremlins to Titans are just a crappy idea.
-guitarguy
Lol, those two parts of your post really made me laugh  .
You must have gotten the wrong idea from my post buddy cause I think i understand the concept/usefulness of ranged units . That wasn't the point. All i said was that a mg hero will suck compared to a skellie hero.
I don't even think I buy mgs that much after week 1. I usually upgrade them day 1 true, but after that next week I'd rather buy my other units. Mgs have to be in obscene numbers when compared to the opponent's army in order to be any significant threat in a battle vs a human player. They just suck at dealing damage when compared to other lvl 1 units and although mgs are useful in the beggining of the game, towards the end they will blow.
And I don't hate tower, I just think it's the weakest town out there overall.
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guitarguy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Rockoon.
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posted January 28, 2005 08:26 AM |
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Quote:
So what if tower has 3 ranged units... i don't follow you here. Again I don't get what you mean with the necropolis having only one ranged attacker.
The basis of my last post, just so you know.
Zsa, what are your thoughts about a full Necropolis army taking on a full Tower army? Assuming either started first and that both Heroes had identical stats. Paying particular attention to the effectiveness of the Level Fives, Sixes, and Sevens. Who in your opinion has the advantage?
-guitarguy
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted January 28, 2005 10:31 AM |
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Quote:
....Zsa, what are your thoughts about a full Necropolis army taking on a full Tower army? Assuming either started first and that both Heroes had identical stats. Paying particular attention to the effectiveness of the Level Fives, Sixes, and Sevens. Who in your opinion has the advantage?
-guitarguy
The effectiveness of the high level units count nothing when fighting with/against Necropolis.
When u meet Tower with Titans (they are expensive, so it normaly isnīt week 1 or 2 when u meet them..), your Necro army has a legion of skellies. So no matter which of the Tower units get a hit from them, they surely will be ALL dead after one hit.
And to compare MG special hero with skellie special hero (Galthran) is not fair coz of the fact, Galthran will get more and more skellies every day, the MG special hero not.
Why donīt you compare a MG special hero with a goblin special hero (Gretchin) or a troggie special hero (Shakti)?
The strongest level1 special hero except galthran would surely be a centaur special hero. Very fast unit gets +1 speed bonus and some nice attack/defense bonuses as well.....very strong in my eyes...
And when i read stuff like "Mastergremlins are only usefull in the first 2 weeks of the game, in the endfight they are crap and die easily...".....
What means "only usefull"???
Donīt you think at least 75% of all games are decided in the first 2 weeks and NOT in the endfight?
When i have a strong army which helps me to clear my area faster in the first 2 weeks, iīm sure in the lead of the game...no matter if these "helpers" will die fast in endfight....i will have much better stats and perhaps much more high-level creatures, coz i made more fights for ressources and could build high-level dwellings earlier AND could buy the units out of them earlier......think of that a bit....
I also disagree when some1 says "I donīt like my main having a skill like Necromancy, coz this skill doesnīt help in endfight".
How does logistics help in endfight?....exactly.....but everyone is trying to get it as soon as possible. Coz it helps clearing the map faster. So does expert necromancy with high stats....coz u get more skellies faster...
Air and earth magic doesnīt help in endfight when opponent has the red orb...but expert earth is the most usefull skill (with slow) when fighting against big stacks on the map.
So u just have to split the game in 2 parts...
First part is "against the map".....many useful things here which u donīt need later on..
Second part is (are) the fight(s) against the opponent....other things are usefull here....
Donīt mix them up or compare them....leads to wrong conclusions....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Zsa
Famous Hero
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posted January 29, 2005 03:03 PM |
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Quote:
And when i read stuff like "Mastergremlins are only usefull in the first 2 weeks of the game, in the endfight they are crap and die easily...".....
please quote me next time angelito, I really hate answering to stuff that isn't what I said.
First of all I didn't mention an endfight, and I usually never refer to it, because like i said before, a game doesn't necessarily have one big final battle in which the fate of the game is decided.
They are only useful the first 2 weeks means just what it says. Yes you can clear the map with them, gather resources, take mines and get experience, but so can centaurs, pikemen, behemoths, efreets, beholders, elves,
marksmen, gorgons etc. And some of those units are very effective later on in the game as well.
What would you rather buy week 2 (considering you don't have money pouring in from every crack of your castle) - would you rather buy the nagas, or the master gremlins?
I don't know about you but i'd go for the naga or naga queens. I can clear the map more effectively than with the gremlins, and they are very useful units later on too.
Splitting the game into two part is not a good idea at all. Of course you need to mix and compare the two, that's the main thing you should do, it's just that it's hard to compare sometimes:
For example, if you were given basic log or basic offense at your main hero(s), what would you pick?
well in the beggining of the game i would go for log, but if i know my opponent is clos or we will most probably have a fight in the near future, I will go for offense.
Get my drift? This is why i said MGs are only useful in the first 2 weeks (gross approximation, don't come here and tell me "well i think they are useful for the first 2 weeks and a half"). The tower or ANY other town for that matter has units that will give you more bang for your money. Like i said before - UNLESS you have huge numbers of gremlins, later on in the game they will look pretty impotent.
And guitar guy, I said why does it matter how many shooter each town has WHEN it comes to the gremlin specialist. I know it is important because it gives tower some advantages (we can talk about the advantages and disadvantages of this some other time).
Second of all, I can't really remember last time i got titans and I really got to turn the tide of the game. Either I didn't have time to get them, or i got them too late. I'd rather go for the mageguilds than for the titans.
Yes of course if you buy all the tower units and you have fully bought armies (2-3 weeks of growth), the tower will look pretty good. It will actually kill most other towns in a fight like that. But the game isn't played like that. I remember xarfax asked a question like this in that strategical thoughts question. Well I wouldn't know exactly how a full upgraded tower army will look like for me , I didn't get something like that in 4 years now.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted February 23, 2006 10:25 PM |
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i think you should start playing online before emitting such opinions. Tower is one of the toughest to play castles.Very expensive, but fun to play nevertheless.
with tower use jabarks not that fag solmyr
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted February 24, 2006 12:15 AM |
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You better have mass haste when playing vs tower, or you WILL lose. Aside from being very expensive and quite difficult to play, if you ever manage to get enough gold and resources to buy and upgrade its entire army before your enemy kills you, Tower's lineup is 2-nd only to castle's lineup (well, Necro and Flux don't count ).
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted March 21, 2006 02:31 AM |
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Gremlins are a very good unit when they are high in numbers, but you should defend them with your Golems.
Gargoyles are good, nbut you should caste haste on them and charge them towards the enemy.
Golems are a defensive unit, so you can defend other creatures by putting golems in front.
Magi are a really good unit, so you can try to defend them, but dont wa\orry if they get swarmed, because they have no melee penalty.
Genies are a good, but somewhat weak unit to have.
Dont charge them straight into the enemy.
Nagas are slow but the best lev6 unit in the game.
You can cast haste on them and watch them cause havoc on the enemy.
Titans are the best ranged attacker in the game so you dont really need to worry about them.
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Question2
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 27, 2010 12:10 AM |
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In my experience tower is mid tier at best.
Gremlins and master gremlins are one of the worst tier 1 creatures you can field. While you are running around with gremlins(unupgraded ones) at game start to take resources, they are extremely weak. Possibly the weakest tier 1 un-upgraded there. Doesn't help in the critical race to flag resources and scout.
Master gremlins are not much better, their damage is pitiful. So what if they are ranged? They are usually hitting at half damage, so 200 master gremlins(a fairly large amount) do 100 damage with the usual range penalty. They are not fast, so its quite easy to only take one round of shooting from them before you close. They have no hp and one of the lowest attack/def stats. AI creature stacks always target gremlins first, so you will have very limited amounts of them anyway.
I find skeletons/centaurs much better. Centaurs are fast, decent melee. Skeletons are also decent melee and you can easily get hundreds of them. Once you start hittign 1k+ skeleton warriors with a decent might hero they can easily take apart dragon stacks.
Gargoyles simply dont have sufficient staying power or hitting power. Sure, they can fly over. Fairly fast. So what? At most, they can fly over and disrupt a ranged unit for a round or two before they are pounded into dust. They simply dont have the damage to bodyguard your ranged either(attackers can just ignore them and continue hitting on your ranged). Pretty much the same problems with wraiths...they fly over, hit for a round or two, then die. Or they sit besides a ranged unit and the attacker laughs at them trying to do damage.
Golems are simply too slow. At most they can bodyguard your ranged, but thats about it. They are too expensive for what they do.
Magi are fairly good, but again, pricey. And they dont seem to have the hitting power that their price demands. Other ranged units like liches and elves(Especially grand elves) easily outclass them IMHO.
Genies are hilariously bad. Their spellcasting abiltiy is far too random and is limited to 3 per battle. They are a fast melee unit that can melee for a round or two before being slaughtered. Once again you pay a premium for...what? I dont know. Honestly, pegasi are a much better flying unit, and they are one tier lower IIRC.
Nagas, too pricey, needs more speed for their cost.
Titans, unugpraded, pretty much outclassed by all the other unupgraded tier 7s. Upgraded, looks great on paper, but too expensive. The building itself costs a ton.
My experience laying with tower is that i never have enough money to get the good tower troops in the amount the game demands. Replacing the fragile melee units like genies is also FAR too expensive.
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