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| Thread: Great battles |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 07:05 AM |
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Haven has luck too, just misses 25% which is guaratneed anyway via impossible for elves retribution skill. No avenger? Who needs avenger considering jousting bonus of +13 paladins/week? That unit beats every elven damage dealer, without taking knight's higher ATT into consideration. Now, add Irina's battle diving griffins for another above-avenger performance and a wonderful shooter-killer, finally archangels which are solid and fast. Haven is simply stronger, faster (except emeralds, wyngaal and sprites/dancers which die after 1-2 hits, sylvan is initiative 10 or less!) AND tougher. And cooler 
Played both, so I could compare. Ossir's hunters with luck and avenger could kill like half of my hydras (when both of those things triggered, which doesn't happen THAT often too). Palas used to kill them all in 1 hit, luck or not 
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 07:54 PM |
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Yeah, but Emeralds takes half damage from earth and thanks to their initiative they can easily attack 2 stacks. Some other Sylvan's stacks can take only half damage as well because of Unicorn's aura and magic resistance perk.
Sylvan would be easily the most damaging if somehow it would be possible to get absolute luck(lots of knowlegde trees needed on a map) and multiple Sylvan cities(Avenger's Brotherhood - each boost by 10%).
Such maps probably don't exist, so Sylvan can do more damage than Haven only when they are lucky enough.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 08:07 PM |
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Well, yes: With absolute luck, it would be totally ridiculous. Although a haven town with expert luck and golden horseshoe seems ridiculous too. In my last battle, they had luck rolled like 80% of the time. (my warlock also had 90% empowered lucky spells, by the way!).
Haven is insane.
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Beowolf
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 08:14 PM |
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Edited by Beowolf at 20:14, 26 Mar 2007.
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That is why I fing artifacts like cursed ring and cloak of death's shadow far more useful than all those luck boosters. IMO enemy having negative luck and us having neutral is far more useful than both of us having good luck. With some towns it is possible to reduce enemy luck even by -5. Negative luck = half damage and still we have room for a luck booster. I am aware, that cloak is hard to get, but cursed ring seems to be common.
One question connected with luck - if a warlock with warlocs luck has it reduced below 0, will it apply for spell luck rolls? Probably not but I dont realy play dungeon so I simply dont know...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 08:17 PM |
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no, spells can't get unlucky.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 26, 2007 08:27 PM |
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If Haven can train +13 paladins/week , then it does more damage than sylvan ... but that is not possible always, it depends very much on map... 6 paladins/ weeek is more realistic and those conditions sylvan does more damage.
Sure, Master Hunters don't kill all the hydras, because they are out of range! But Sylvan isn't only about Master Hunters, the main power are the Emeralds ... Also Silver Unicorns and Druids have a very strong attack... Even the Sprites will hurt Dungeon's low defense troops alot!
You can reach 60-80% Avenger, 50% Luck so there are high chances of 450% damage !
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 08:41 PM |
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Still, haven has better odds to do better than Sylvan - especially with Klaus.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 09:17 PM |
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Quote:
If Haven can train +13 paladins/week , then it does more damage than sylvan ... but that is not possible always, it depends very much on map... 6 paladins/ weeek is more realistic and those conditions sylvan does more damage.
No it does not, lol, don't be ridiculous.. Paladins are the most powerful damage dealer in the game, the only unit that exceeds 300 dam/week for normal growth and with double growth, attack, retribution, higher knight's ATT... I'm not taking luck into consideration cuz it's available to both, with sylvan one being only slightly better. All sylvan has is avenger. Are you joking, TowerLord? Tell me, why on heck should they do bigger damage? It's un-logical, math shows something EXACTLY OPPOSITE, just count: 4 casual palas/week + 4 extra palas/week due to training (if the map is poor, but ok..) when jousting to full distance: 670 damage (around, don't remember exactly). Retribution with 5 morale: +25% damage, attack: +20% damage. That makes it 1040 damage, without taking knight's high ATT into consideration. Lucky strike is worth 2080 damage(!)
Now, let's count the damage for the strongest unit of sylvan: Emerald dragon.. with avenger it's 360 damage. Lucky strike deals 810 damage. Even if Sylvan player gets att (2% chance..), it ends at 972 damage MAX.
What is better, 2080 or 972?
And that's without Knight's natural ATT. Besieds, 810 happens rarely (both luck and avenger must trigger together, the chance for it is low, and even if they DO trigger together, the damage is still lower than one unlucky paladin's blow, when jousting 8 fields. And unless you entangle the ppaladins, they will almost always travel a lot of tiles. And you say you don't even use treants, so..
Give me ONE example why this is wrong and explain it with math. Then I will believe you. Cuz both theory and my metagame knowledge is against your statement 
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted March 26, 2007 09:59 PM |
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Quote:
Paladins are the most powerful damage dealer in the game, the only unit that exceeds 300 dam/week for normal growth
This is a false statement to start with... their average dmg/week is
25 * 4 * ((24-10) * 5 + 100)/100 = 170 without jousting, add to that max 40% and you reach 238 dmg / week. But if you add Jousting add to the Emeralds the Acid Breath ... and recalculate the damages. Also add higher initiative of Emeralds to equtiation.
Attack is must have for Sylvan, and in long games I can force my hero to get it.
Anyway I didn't say Emeralds are gonna do more damage than the paladins, but all the Sylvan army compared to the Haven(with so few paladins) army will. You have 2-3 stacks that are not gonna do a thing against Dungeon for many turns: Inquisitors( neglectable damage), Conscripts and Squires are not gonna reach ... that doesn't happen in Sylvan's case, every unit hits from turn 1 cause they are very fast!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 26, 2007 10:08 PM |
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gh. Right, I have used 330 instead of 238.
recalculation:
Base damage 238x2 (double growth) plus att/retribution = 738. Lucky blow deals 1475 damage, which is still more without taking knight's higher att into consideration. It's much more reliable than emeralds' combined luck+avenger too, and it affects everything, not just avenged creatures (and it's a total lottery, plus level 6/7 creatures are extremely rare on the map and are almost NEVER the target of avenger! So, the avenger's usefulness is very limited).
So, the paladins do more damage even with very cheap double growth! Sure, emeralds have 2 points more uof init (not much) and acid attack, but palas may come in even GREATER numbers than mere +4/week (it's not a big problem with exp. counterstrike and exp.trainer, they are quite cheap) and the conclusion is: Sylvan units can't match paladins. It's obvious, my friend 
About the rest of the units: Archangels and battle diving griffins both do above 1000 damage with luck, which tops your unreasonable luck+avenger combo. Think about it. Sprites and dancers die immediately, btw.
I've defeated a great sylvan player with dungeon with ease. I couldn't do it with ease against haven, though.
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 11:01 PM |
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For sylvan against dungeon in the late game... assuming all with original initiative. When it is the dungeon's hero turn , 60-80% of the troops are dead with their low defence, and all the sylvan troops are already spread in the battlefield, meteor shower is quite hard really ... unless they got a initiative caster like ihora
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 25, 2007 11:38 PM |
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haha yeah but recently new option appeared of armagedoning whole place and buy yourself back in tavern lol
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 10:28 AM |
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Haven't tried it.. u mean if you bring along 7 furies, amargedon to suicide own hero , and still can be bought in the tavern ??
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 10:44 AM |
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no, if both armies are destroyed you are the winner and you can rehire your hero at tavern (with enemy's artifacts  )
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 12:58 PM |
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The game is almost won if both armies are destroyed and enemy main hero is no more available though
Maybe all depends on map to determine best race.
One town map belongs to the more magic based academy, necro, dungeon
3 is too extreme on might side.
Looks like good balance to compare is 2 town maps.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 26, 2007 02:41 PM |
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Quote:
haha yeah but recently new option appeared of armagedoning whole place and buy yourself back in tavern lol
yes ... I was thinking about this thing too , cause I noticed the hero goes back to tavern when remaining with 0 troops against neutral , but you have to take into consideration some things :
1. Will Armageddon kill all his stacks ? cause it will surely kill all yours'...
2. Won't resistance kick in at all ? Sylvan has big resistance usually, and if one stack resists and escapes you're history
This is risky bussiness, but a very nice strategic option... but I think it is kinda weird and I think it should be fixed , so that both heroes escape cause the battle has ended undecided
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 03:12 PM |
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hey, that is a good idea..
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 03:17 PM |
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No , its not. It will make armagedon not very useful again
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 03:23 PM |
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armageddon is just not good for warlocks.. that's it
for academy it's great
For some well-developed dwarven heroes it's also good. But it's level 22+ only :<
Btw even if our racial didn't work for dragons.. it still wouldn't change much.. cuz an army composed of dragons only would fall extremely quickly, before the first armageddon even (lucky paladins )
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 26, 2007 03:26 PM |
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Quote:
armageddon is just not good for warlocks.. that's it
Now its quite good actually. You can win many battles you wouldn't be able to win otherwise.
Quote:
Btw even if our racial didn't work for dragons.. it still wouldn't change much.. cuz an army composed of dragons only would fall extremely quickly, before the first armageddon even (lucky paladins )
its not only dragons, imagine warlock with 75% or 50% fire damage reduction casting 3k armagedon which penetrate enemy resistance only. Sick.
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