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| Thread: The perfect lineup |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 23, 2007 07:30 AM |
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The perfect lineup
As you all may know the heroes series has always came with a lovely variety on creature types; Walkers, Shooters, and Flyers. With Heroes 5 a new one was added, the Caster (in all but the Pit-lord cases, a shooter). Also it could be argued more notable Walker-spinoffs, the Tanks, could be considered a more obvious type as well.
What always interested me is how tier-levels affected specific types, most particularly, the tier levels used for shooters.
Haven - 2,5
Inferno - 4
Sylvan - 3,4
Dungeon 1, (2?),6
Academy - 1,4,7
Necropolis - 1,5
Fortress - 2,5
Now, taking flyers, casters and tanks into consideration, I am curious what you all think would be the perfect lineup ? And are there specific tier levels that are best for specific types?
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted June 23, 2007 08:36 AM |
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There is no such thing as a perfect line up. Every line up thinkable can be beaten by some other line up like rock-paper-scissors. That's what makes the game dynamic. If not everyone would work towards achieving the perfect line up and the game would become static. The only I don't like is the duel mode is not balanced at all as some heroes are way overpowered. Hint hint Deleb and Jhora.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 23, 2007 08:47 AM |
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Regardless of the objective perfect lineup, what's your personal favorit lineup?
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted June 23, 2007 08:53 AM |
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My personal favorite. Hmmm hard question. Let's see.
1. Probably Assassin for their poison and range or sprites for their spray attack plus no retal.
2. Blood Maiden. Enough said.
3. Master Hunter. Double shot. Deadly.
4. Vampire Lord.
5. Probably the Archlich cuz of the range, the area effect damage of the death cloud and the spells.
6. OOh... Really tough. Personally Rakshasa's just for the look. Wraith and Pit Lord cuz of their abilities.
7. Black Dragon. Nothing comes close to this monstrous unit. Titan is a distant second. Magma Dragons are overpowered.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 23, 2007 08:55 AM |
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I meant creature type in tier  What levels should be shooters, what should be casters, and what should be flyers, etc. And it keep it balanced
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted June 23, 2007 09:28 AM |
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A "perfect shooter" is a 1x1 creature that has stat distribution, on a low-mid-high continuum, that looks like:
high damage
high initiative
high attack
low defense
low hp
low speed.
This bad durability "perfect shooter" is supposed to be protected by a "perfect tank" with:
low damage
low initiatve
low attack
very high defense
very high hp
low speed
Also, it's better that both of those units are
1-4 tier -> cheap
not
5-7 tier -> overpriced
Generally, castles are quite close to this model:
Academy - tier 1 Gremlins + tier 3 Golems
Dungeon - tier 2 Furies + tier 5 Hydra
Haven - tier 2 Marksman + tier 3 Squires
Inferno - tier 2 Demons, gated troops + tier 4 Succuubi
Necropolis - tier 1 Skeleton Archers + tier 2 Zombies
Sylvan - tier 3 Master Hunters + tier 6 Ancient Treants
Fortress - tier 1 Shieldguards + tier 2 Skirmishers
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 23, 2007 05:11 PM |
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I think this discussion is quite interesting. It deffinitely matters what the properties of the units at the different levels are - an ill suited creature on a crucial level will often be a weakness during combat. A good example from Heroes 3 is the Hydra in the Fortress - the Hydra, although a nice unit, was simply not versatile enough to make a good level 7 creature - it was slow and didn't do much damage on 1 on 1 attack.
I think a good combination is like this:
Level 1: Fodder unit. Example: Conscript. I know many people write off the conscript as a poor unit, but I actually think he serves his purpose quite well: He comes in numbers, he's fairly sturdy, he can even do decent damge with the right hero skills, and he has a nice tactical bonus (Bash) which can pacify enemies.
Level 2: Ranged creeper. Example: Marksman. Again, the Haven unit serves it's purpose very well here. I prefer a ranged level 2 unit rather than a level 1 unit, because he will be stronger, and will retain his usefulness for longer time. The Gremlin, for instance, is pretty worthless in battle in late game. A level 3 ranged unit also works well, but might come a bit too late in numbers to really help in creeping (like the Hunter).
Level 3: Tank. Example: Squire. With a good ranged level 2 unit, you can do quite a lot of creeping. You don't really need meelee offensive power, and a tank will serve you very well there. Also, a low/mid-level tank can remain useful even in late game, but does not take out a crucial spot in the line-up (like a level 4 tank would).
Level 4: Offensive melee (possibly flyer). Example: Imperial Griffin. I seem to be very fond of the Haven line-up.  This unit will shine in mid-game where high-level units are not too important. It's sturdy enough to withstand assaults from low-level creatures, which is more than the typical offensive level 3 unit is (e.g. Minotaur). Versatility is a key feature of this unit, as it will often be used as sacrifice in crucial late-stage battles to take out enemy ranged units plus as many others as possible.
Level 5: Caster / Tank. Well, this is a bit of an artificial classification, as the only obvious unit to fit this is ... the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor does, however, take up two very important parts of the army at the same time. The role as high-level tank is important to buy time during late battles, and I think the level 5 creature is best used for this because level 6 or 7 will result in lack of important offensive power (i.e. Treant). Also, a level 5 offensive melee unit is rarely quite strong enough to take on high-level assaults (Unicone, Nightmare), and therefore, this spot is well sacrificed for a tank (like the Hydra). If, at the same time this unit can work as a supportive caster, well ... double bonus.
Level 6: Offensive melee. Example: Paladin. This is all about offensive power. In the late game, where level 6 and 7 units start to dominate, being able to deal serious damage is crucial. Sacrificing this spot for a tank (Treant) or caster (Shadow Matriarch) will therefore result in a less capable line-up.
Level 7: Offensive flyer. Example: Archangel. Again, versatility and offensive power is key features here. Mobility is crucial, as a mobile level 7 creature (Angel, Devil, Dragon) will be a huge aid in late-game sieges.
So, I ended up reproducing the Haven line-up as the perfect line-up. Is that a greater truth? Not really, but I do think it reflects some points of truth. For instance, the Sylvan line-up with it heave focus on mid-level ranged power and high-level tank is lacking in rushes. But it all depends on how you plan to play the faction - Academy has much ranged power, which opts for a more defensive play, which makes good of lots of tank units (Gargoyle, Golem, even Rakshasa). Inferno focuses on speed rather than bulk. And Necropolis survives on numbers rather than individual strength.
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What will happen now?
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 23, 2007 07:57 PM |
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Haven indeed is the perfect example. It is the easiest to play, because it does have the "perfect lineup". Thus its playstyle is the most straightforward one. Other factions have more specialized units on certain levels (like Djinns on level 5!) and you simply need to find a way how to make the best of them...
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 23, 2007 08:20 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 20:21, 23 Jun 2007.
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It should be noted other factions have different ways of solving their little problem. Dungeon for example may not have a solid offensive tier 6 unit, but instead of that, it has the warlock that deals insane destructive-magic damage.
That aside though, what I generally liked about Heroes 3 was how Fortress had the perfect lineup to counter Castle: Level 3 and 6 flyers to take out Castle's Level 2 and 5 shooters instantly. Heroes V though barely features lower-than-7 flyers that can cross the field in one go.
What about flyers? What tier levels are essential to be flyers? 7, obviously...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 23, 2007 08:25 PM |
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Haven enjoys the classic "perfect" build, yes.. with the alternatives, it can only get better. Powerful and fast damage dealers that also are tanks (the survivability of paladins and angels is very high), good backup caster, good backup shooter, nice tankish level3. Since this game is IMO all about melee and spells(with the sole exception of overpowered sharpshooter, that is ;P), haven may seem stronger than other castles when it comes to might, since it relies on powerful melee units with the addition of excellent magic schools (light+dark). Still, as every "perfect" build, it has a "perfect" flaw ---> you need lots of creatures, gold, levels. A warlock with theoritically weaker forces may wash you away in earlygame with little effort.
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted June 24, 2007 04:52 AM |
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Quote:
(the survivability of paladins and angels is very high
I don't consider any of the level 7 units to have high survivability because by the time they come into play the heroes are built up enough to rape them with the hero attack.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 24, 2007 10:07 AM |
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eee... I would rather cast some spells, even better if destructive
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted June 24, 2007 11:15 AM |
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Edited by Homer171 at 11:23, 24 Jun 2007.
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Perfect line up?
1. Defender
2. Marksman
3. Sharp Shooter
4. Imperial Griffin
5. Liches
6. Paladin
7. Arc/ Fallen Angel
Well Haven line up is pretty mutch "the perfect line up" exeptional Peasant what could be changed to Defenders or Gremlins.
EDIT: So conclusion: Low level range creatures for early game creeping. Steady mid level creatures and battle divers and heavy cavalry as main weapon. Protect by AA or followed by Fallens as the final touch.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted June 24, 2007 11:50 AM |
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Your line-up is very imballanced, and apart from the fact that you could never make a faction with level 1, 2, 3 and 5, shooter, that faction would be very vulnerable to Ranged counters.
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 24, 2007 12:10 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:14, 24 Jun 2007.
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I can't say I dislike the level 5 or 6 Tanker units though - They are meant to buy the hero time, and especially with Warlocks, it's devestating.
Level 6 can actually be missed if level 5 is a good one, like the H3 Minotaur Guards and Mighty Gorgons. Of course, Sylvan doesn't have that.
I personally don't like level 3 tanks, it doesn't seem suiting.
I can't help but feel any archer leaves a devestating gap in the lineup, especially higher up.
I wonder....
Tier 1 - Shooter
Tier 2 - Shooter
Tier 3 - Shooter (caster)
Tier 4 - Tank
Tier 5 - Melee (caster?)
Tier 6 - Melee (flyer)
Tier 7 - Melee (flyer)
How would a line-up like that perform? As far as I know it can't be tested as there are no tier 4 tanks, and no tier 5 melee-casters. (or tier-3 ranged casters).
One thing this is obviously missing is low-level retaliation eaters (fodder) but then, you can add no-retal abilities or give a specific shooter little ammo, no melee penalty. Or a flying shooter, that would be a new one.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 24, 2007 12:14 PM |
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Lol first three tiers as shooters alerts my imba sense 
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 24, 2007 12:16 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 12:18, 24 Jun 2007.
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imba? Why? Good for early creeping... Group of 3 low-level shooters might retain late-game functionability. IMBA as in, overpowered or underpowered?
On a different note - just about every faction has 3 out of 7 Large Creatures. Any tier levels that are best for those?
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SIlinrul
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 24, 2007 12:18 PM |
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I can't really say, since I haven't played enough of Heroes 5 to form a clear idea. However, from what I've gathered, here is a lineup that I'd prefer:
The ideal army would have at least 2 tanks, at least one powerful shooter, 1-2 flyers and 2-3 strong melee units.
Level 1: - Familiars: I know, an odd chjoice, but that way I'll make sure that my opponent will lose half of his skills or more...no mana FTW!
Level 2: - Gargoyles: - it is hard to decide, but I think that gargoyles are best for tanks...and level 2 are meant to be tanks, nothign more. This would be my first tank. They also caputre the AI's attention rather fast and come up in large numbers.
Level 3: - Master Hunter: - Fragile, they die easily...but if you are careful and know how to protect them, you'll get a hell of a lot of damage.
Level 4: - Grim Riders - Hands down, the best level 4 creature. This would be my first offensive melee unit
Level 5: - Deep Hydra - The second tank in my army, nuff said. These things will be the last things standing on the battlefield.
Level 6: - Paladins - this would be a hard choice, betwen them and Treeants (yes, I actually like treeants, they are not only tanks, but they also hacve the potential of keeping a good bunch of units "tied" to them) and of course Pit Lords...*shiver*
Level 7: - Black Dragons or Emerald Dragons. My favourite, both of them. But Blackies seem to be a little bit strnger.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 24, 2007 12:25 PM |
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My point is that it would make creeping pretty easy except maybe squires. Maybe later on it could be balanced but usually ranged power early especially after combining armies and upgrading helps a lot.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 24, 2007 12:29 PM |
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Grim Raiders, Paladins, Dragons... Ouch, that's quite an offensive bunch. Adding Tank hydras and mana-sapping Familiar to that = overkill Makes me wonder what you need the Gargoyles for if you have got hydras to guard the elfs?
But we're not talking about special abilities Classes rather (Grunts, shooters, casters, flyers, tanks, chargers, etc.)
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