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| Thread: Inferno in HoMM 5 is UNDERPOWERED |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted December 26, 2007 03:09 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 15:58, 26 Dec 2007.
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I'd like to say that it's true that inferno has trouble creeping at heroic difficulty but at hard difficulty it's quite ok if you know what you're doing, though you should expect losses until you get lvl4s and 5s. War machines or not you will have trouble fighting ranged casters and a little trouble vs fast units too. But an experienced inferno player will get around these little things. For creeping, the best thing about war machines is their ability to make you take little to no losses in many battles, the additional damage provided by the balista being also welcome but not that necessary really. Moreover the tent is the only reliable dark counter inferno has, but that's another subject. Though what I don't like in a typical inferno war machinist build is that it delays developing all other important skills until later making the rest of the army relatively weak. Furthermore it leaves you with very few options, for instance if you take 3 lvls of war machines and 3 war machine perks you're at lvl7 and you need to know how are you going to develop in the next say 8 lvls ( assuming a typical hero fight occurs around lvl 15). 8 small points that you need to decide how you spend between logistics/dark/atack/gating, tough choice. One way to get around this problem is to use several heroes, one a war machinist and another a regular with gating skills and maybe dark and atack.
Now here's my own pracitical creeping strategy, that usually works quite well:
What I like to do is build mage guild lvl 1 and combine armies of 2 heroes on first day, the secondary scouts for mines a little to see what the main can take on easily. The main then should try getting the wood mine. On day 2 you can build a blacksmith and get your balista/ tent from there. At this point the idea is to focus on gating skill, unless you get something neat offered. From my experience logistics too early is not a good idea, same for luck or enlightenment better grab atack or dark if you can. Hell hounds and familiars should be used with care if at all as they are very fragile units that loose alot of power if their numbers diminish. Now the idea is to use magic, mark of the damned and gates for doing damage. Spam the area with your gates placed intelligently and keep casting eldrich arrow or ice bolt . You will loose some units here and there but overall you should be ok if you avoid fast and ranged units in numbers. Even large units like paladins or pit lords can even abused with massive gating.
At the end of the week you'll be faced with the dilema build sucubi or hell charges? My personal favorite used to be hell chargers for their speed and initiative but nowadays I tend to favor seducers. The mistress + hell fire combo should also work pretty well.
From there on most things shouldn't be a problem with the exception of shadow witches, archliches, druids emerald/crystal dragons. I admit though that a war machinist would be able to creep things faster early and will be able to tackle some difficult things like ranged casters easier too. However war machines is by no means the only way of playing inferno.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 26, 2007 04:24 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:25, 26 Dec 2007.
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No but it's still the best plus it saves you the mind numbing tedium of running around and spamming the battlefield with gates till it's no longer funny. A while ago I defeated 45 or so vindicators with no warmachines skill day 2 and lost 4 demons and 3 familiars. Possible? Yes. Annoying as hell? That too. That's the main reason I hate inferno, until you get warmachines the gameplay is too complex and risky. I prefer Deleb's way than having to deal with all this micromanagement.
Well fought Ocrane 
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted December 26, 2007 04:36 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 16:38, 26 Dec 2007.
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Quote:
That's the main reason I hate inferno, until you get warmachines the gameplay is too complex and risky.
Looks like my kinda faction I should start playing these guys.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted December 26, 2007 04:43 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 16:44, 26 Dec 2007.
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Dude it is (at times) really really really annoying to play with them without Warmachines... Elvin sums it up pretty well. The micromanagement is really tiering at times and if you just make one small mistake it may cost your army. I don't blame people for not likeing to play Inferno as the first week is (can be) extremly tiering. Trust me dude I've spent a lot of time with our burnning friends.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 26, 2007 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
Yes. Annoying as hell? That too. That's the main reason I hate inferno, until you get warmachines the gameplay is too complex and risky.
Infidel! Heathen! By Elrath Urgash we shall destroy you! 
@Azagal: you're kinda right, but I'd rather say that other factions creeping is too easy, not inferno's too overcomplicated.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 27, 2007 01:45 AM |
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Alright maybe I exaggerated but my point stands, it's not my thing to gate and run around while my hero kills a minotaur at a time. If you attack them early you HAVE to do that and my toh sense does not allow me to wait until I have a better army
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Wulfstan8182
Famous Hero
, eh?
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posted December 27, 2007 03:17 AM |
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I don't think it's underpowered in TotE. I just finished the second mission with Zehir. Freyda had a pretty tough fight with those alternatives. These "alternative" are about twice as strong as the normal ones and are pretty much an upgrade of the upgrade. I think that by having those extremely powerful alt. upg. it sort of makes the Inferno really, really strong.
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 27, 2007 06:03 AM |
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Quote:
No but it's still the best plus it saves you the mind numbing tedium of running around and spamming the battlefield with gates till it's no longer funny. A while ago I defeated 45 or so vindicators with no warmachines skill day 2 and lost 4 demons and 3 familiars. Possible? Yes. Annoying as hell? That too. That's the main reason I hate inferno, until you get warmachines the gameplay is too complex and risky. I prefer Deleb's way than having to deal with all this micromanagement.
lol do you have a replay for this?
Quote:
Dude it is (at times) really really really annoying to play with them without Warmachines... Elvin sums it up pretty well. The micromanagement is really tiering at times and if you just make one small mistake it may cost your army. I don't blame people for not likeing to play Inferno as the first week is (can be) extremly tiering. Trust me dude I've spent a lot of time with our burnning friends.
Ahh someone understands my pain.
The reason why one has to run around (and can run around) is because Inferno units are melee walkers with good initiative but piss poor hp, and their damages aren't particularly impressive. If you check Inferno units have lowish hp for most tiers.
But again for early games, Inferno does lack a damage dealer (as I always believe). W/o war machine (by not using Deleb you aren't getting them early) Inferno has nothing to kill creeps efficiently in early game (might hero will rely more on good units for creeping imo), and they don't have the resurrection skills to make it OK for them to take a few hits.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted December 27, 2007 06:57 AM |
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One minor complaint I have about Inferno is that the Horned Grunts' leaping ability isn't affected by Windstrider boots. I hope that's an oversight that will be fixed in the patch.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 27, 2007 09:39 AM |
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I have the replay but I am not home atm, will edit when I return. Good to know Gootch.
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 27, 2007 02:52 PM |
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Yesterday I tried Bfh with Grok, on week3 I ended up with exp logistics with pathfinfing and warpath, exp machines with tent and triple ballista (It seems I can't miss it ) and basic dark. I attacked 39 ADs but without dark magic and flaming arrows it seems impossible to defeat them on week 3. I'm also not convinced that with Frenzy it would have been possible (I had bad luck with resources, so no high level guild). However I'd like to notice that week 4 breaking (which is also good enough imo, would be quite easy, since pathfinding with warpath is quite insane on that map. By week 4 with Grok you can wipe out the whole map, and the sheer number of your units on week 4 will be enough to break anyways.
@ Veteranewbie: You're absolutely right, but since inferno lacks lvl 1-3 shooters/casters, their chance to get war machines is quite good, so I dare to say that in most of the time you CAN rely on (getting) it.
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 27, 2007 04:45 PM |
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btw
Can you guys show me a replay dealing with hordes/lots/packs of scouts (and upg), blood maiden (and upg), gremlins (and upg), and centaurs (and upg) using only first week Inferno creatures and no Deleb/ First Aid/ Ballista?
I have serious troubles dealing with them and they turn up really really often in my game guarding things like sawmill and ore pit... grrrrr
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 27, 2007 06:36 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:37, 27 Dec 2007.
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Was away for the day, here's 45 vindicators on day 2, no warmachines. Atm I do not have replays for the others. Gremlins you can beat by using gating with a big stack of imps and a few single ones that will charge to block it. A few destructive casts should lessen the casualties. Otherwise horned grunts and tactics to reach the enemy by leaping. Centaurs only with cerberi or leapers.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted December 27, 2007 07:15 PM |
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gremlins/centaurs/scouts: one pretty dumb way but that works:
defend till they run out of amo then gate, use you first lvl magic spell to take them down. Another method is to split your army in 7 stacks of demons and try to swarm them with gates. In any case don't bring imps, they get targeted first by ranged creeps, hell hounds aren't too good loosing here either. If you can afford to wait a day to get a balista and tent for this battle it won't hurt. You'll have casualties but it's ok it's only demons...
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 28, 2007 03:46 AM |
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Quote:
gremlins/centaurs/scouts: one pretty dumb way but that works:
defend till they run out of amo then gate, use you first lvl magic spell to take them down. Another method is to split your army in 7 stacks of demons and try to swarm them with gates. In any case don't bring imps, they get targeted first by ranged creeps, hell hounds aren't too good loosing here either. If you can afford to wait a day to get a balista and tent for this battle it won't hurt. You'll have casualties but it's ok it's only demons...
Yeath that's what I tend to do, only I always find insufficient damages to take them down fast enough
Anyway I think someway to fix Inferno starter may either increase the damages of demon (as I previously suggested, I'll be happy if they just raise the min damage from 1 to 2), or cut down the resources requirement of its dwelling (particularly the upgraded, 10 wood is too much to ask for for such a sucky unit especially when the next choice cerberus which is way better, requires that insane level of wood)
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted December 28, 2007 12:39 PM |
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No replay here, but just tried lots of gremlins on day 1 with Grok:
I had balista, tent and eldrich arrow and used only defend on demons:
Oponent: 2x16 gremlins and 16 master gremlins
casualties = 2 demons.
A small analysis:
gremlins are a lvl 1 tier and as such the unupgraded version is not much of a threat: 5hp 7 initiative and poor damage, makes them easy to handle even in numbers.
centaurs have a pretty lowish 6 hp but have a good initiative of 11 for a shooter their damage is 2x greater than that of normal gremlins making them comparable in strength to gremlin saboteurs. Thankfully though they come in lower numbers than the gremlins making it possible to tackle them with acceptable losses.
scouts: although showing very decent stats and damage these guys are rarely a threat since they're shot is weak due to range penalty and their numbers low.
In all the cases eldrich arrow and ice bolt are the spells you want, their base damage is sufficiently high and demon lords knowledge lets them cast it many times.
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 28, 2007 12:59 PM |
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Quote:
No replay here, but just tried lots of gremlins on day 1 with Grok:
I had balista, tent and eldrich arrow and used only defend on demons:
Oponent: 2x16 gremlins and 16 master gremlins
casualties = 2 demons.
A small analysis:
gremlins are a lvl 1 tier and as such the unupgraded version is not much of a threat: 5hp 7 initiative and poor damage, makes them easy to handle even in numbers.
centaurs have a pretty lowish 6 hp but have a good initiative of 11 for a shooter their damage is 2x greater than that of normal gremlins making them comparable in strength to gremlin saboteurs. Thankfully though they come in lower numbers than the gremlins making it possible to tackle them with acceptable losses.
scouts: although showing very decent stats and damage these guys are rarely a threat since they're shot is weak due to range penalty and their numbers low.
In all the cases eldrich arrow and ice bolt are the spells you want, their base damage is sufficiently high and demon lords knowledge lets them cast it many times.
Centaurs and Gremlins seem to come in lots/hordes, not sure if arrow and ice bolt are sufficient
BTW anyone knows whether Leapers are useful?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 28, 2007 02:57 PM |
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Not as much as cerberi so the choice is clear.
Time for some inferno exploits! Underpowered or not they are sneaky and can take down neutrals in some cheap ways.
Here:
-116 plague zombies day 2 with hellhounds.
-An unorthdox way to defeat a horde of gargoyles.
-52 footmen day 2 or 3 I forget. Just hellhounds
-My week 3 break with Grok, 41 archdevils  NOT EVEN DELEB!  This battle is also interesting because it shows that heroes is all about creativity. You'll often encounter unusual situations good or bad, it's what you'll do about them. You can bet I was a bit lucky here 
No dark or flaming arrows. Though that ring of machine affinity sure was useful ^^ As was excruciating strike. Flaming arrows is cool but I am no longer convinced it is easy to get soon. Flaming arrows, triple ballista, tent and expert gating takes 17 levels. Now if you also want to add dark and logistics.. Awesome but there's a heavy price to pay while orcs can get it effortlessly by week 2 at worst.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Veteranewbie
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 28, 2007 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
Not as much as cerberi so the choice is clear.
Time for some inferno exploits! Underpowered or not they are sneaky and can take down neutrals in some cheap ways.
Here:
-116 plague zombies day 2 with hellhounds.
-An unorthdox way to defeat a horde of gargoyles.
-52 footmen day 2 or 3 I forget. Just hellhounds
-My week 3 break with Grok, 41 archdevils NOT EVEN DELEB! This battle is also interesting because it shows that heroes is all about creativity. You'll often encounter unusual situations good or bad, it's what you'll do about them. You can bet I was a bit lucky here
No dark or flaming arrows. Though that ring of machine affinity sure was useful ^^ As was excruciating strike. Flaming arrows is cool but I am no longer convinced it is easy to get soon. Flaming arrows, triple ballista, tent and expert gating takes 17 levels. Now if you also want to add dark and logistics.. Awesome but there's a heavy price to pay while orcs can get it effortlessly by week 2 at worst.
I see, all you have to do is run and run and let the hero and ballista to do the killings,that certainly takes ages. lol I hope the prize is really worth it
Though I'm not sure if other factions can do it as good, one thing I'm quite sure is playing Inferno will age me terribly 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 28, 2007 03:43 PM |
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Which is why I despise it I just wanted to show that, the alternative it to have losses or wait which is not a good idea..
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