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| Thread: Haven creeping - no longer underpowered |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Drunk_Lord
Known Hero
very happy hero :)
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posted February 16, 2008 03:32 AM |
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Haven creeping - no longer underpowered
Haven, while supreme in lategame is very lousy in earlygame. And that made them unplayable on small\normal maps and even the big maps sometimes. Many haven players gave up playing haven(and some joined Looser's Lounge  , I bet Nival planned it  ). So I've been obssessed with this: How to creep effectivly with any haven hero? Is there a way? There's really a way in which haven can creep almost everything in week 2 unless they've got a rough super rough week 1. But let's not further delay: [might add some effects:TA-TA-DA-TA!  ]
This creeping requires Royal Griffins and right skills and some spells. If u want to use this just get the Royal Griffins as fast as possile. Yeah, week 1 will be hard, but when u get those needed griffins in week 2 u can kill almost every neutral. What skills are first of first priority: Leadership and Defense-Last Stand. U begin with this two and then advance on Guardian Angel\Master of Mind. If u get hands on Raise Dead great for u. Now the explanation: enter battle - with 5 stacks of 2 Griffins minimal(minimal 2 creatures are needed for last stand to trigger). Griffins are fast so battle dive somewhere on the field. Begin attacking the neutrals with the hero and just keep battle diving griffins in order to be nearly untouchable. U'll probably say: "They'll kill ur griffins" but last stand and raise dead secure u nicely. Master of Mind or Guardian Angel will also suit u very good. Also u will have morale applied to ur griffins after diving and will be able to dive fast again. This creeping strategy completely owns! In week 2 on big map I handled 11 archies, some horde of hydras and much more. Someone to bring the imbarometer
Note - My favorite heroes are Laszlo(Starts with Defense) and Maeve(starts with Leadership). It's quite easy accessible through this heroes
P.S. This is tested more times on HoF than on TotE, because TotE got bugged(I tried to debug the AI for quick combat so he does the same as me now. Though I succeeded in HoF TotE has a bug now. On TotE it's similiar too. Just get fights with creatures < init compared to the griffins init and u can beat 'em.
I like ot do this because I'm just tired of palying only Vittorio and Dougal.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 09:21 AM |
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Haven, while supreme in lategame is very lousy in earlygame.
Really depends on a person, I'm better with haven's earlygame than haven's late game tbh..
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And that made them unplayable on small\normal maps and even the big maps sometimes.
Big maps are perfectly ok when you realize what samiekl hinted: you shouldn't treat haven as rush-break faction. They need a different approach. People use to play them like other factions, and that fails because haven is different. We just need a pro haven player that will show us what this faction is really capable of.
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Many haven players gave up playing haven(and some joined Looser's Lounge
Which should be spelled Loser's Lounge, but nobody cares for that anyway.
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So I've been obssessed with this: How to creep effectivly with any haven hero? Is there a way?
Sure there is, flaming arrows Vittorio is faster than sylvan and stronghold, for example.
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This creeping requires Royal Griffins and right skills and some spells. If u want to use this just get the Royal Griffins as fast as possile. Yeah, week 1 will be hard, but when u get those needed griffins in week 2 u can kill almost every neutral.
Yeah? like, 80 archangels?
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What skills are first of first priority: Leadership and Defense-Last Stand. U begin with this two and then advance on Guardian Angel\Master of Mind. If u get hands on Raise Dead great for u.
That requires a total of 14 levelups. It can't be really called "creeping method"..
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Now the explanation: enter battle - with 5 stacks of 2 Griffins minimal(minimal 2 creatures are needed for last stand to trigger). Griffins are fast so battle dive somewhere on the field. Begin attacking the neutrals with the hero and just keep battle diving griffins in order to be nearly untouchable. U'll probably say: "They'll kill ur griffins" but last stand and raise dead secure u nicely.
Raise dead doesn't prevent loses for non-undead hero. Have you meant resurrection?
Besides, the neutrals will hit the griffins anyway. They can act between their dives and all your planning can be screwed by 1 morale boost, btw.
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Master of Mind or Guardian Angel will also suit u very good. Also u will have morale applied to ur griffins after diving and will be able to dive fast again. This creeping strategy completely owns! In week 2 on big map I handled 11 archies, some horde of hydras and much more. Someone to bring the imbarometer
That's not very impressive, you know. In second week, you can already kill 30 untamed cyclopses with Vittorio.
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P.S. This is tested more times on HoF than on TotE, because TotE got bugged(I tried to debug the AI for quick combat so he does the same as me now. Though I succeeded in HoF TotE has a bug now. On TotE it's similiar too. Just get fights with creatures < init compared to the griffins init and u can beat 'em.
And one morale boost will screw it all.
It used to be a nice tactic.. in vanilla H5, where morale didn't affect battle dive. You could handle some creeps, but even then, it was nothing special.
Don't forget that magic factions can kill a horde of level 7 units while you kill your 11 arch liches 
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Drunk_Lord
Known Hero
very happy hero :)
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posted February 16, 2008 11:30 AM |
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Ur right, but it just became boring to me to play only Vittorio and Dougal 
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 11:33 AM |
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And another problem with your suggestions:
Getting Imperial Griffins costs about 20 wood and 20 ore. Impossible early game, unless you want to sacrifice all other town buildings.
The ore demands on Haven are simply huge. 20 for crossbowmen, 20 for squires, 20 for griffins, 10 for monks, 25 for the mage guild, 25 for Archangels.
A grand total of 120!!!
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 01:30 PM |
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Many haven players gave up playing haven(and some joined Looser's Lounge
This is the kind of thinking that i dont get. Let's see... when i began multiplayer i thought that dungeon had no chance on hourglass, but that didnt make me quit dungeon, but play on hg more and more to figure out ways to win. Now... why on earth would someone quit playing their favourite faction, haven in this case, instead of trying to find ways to get better with them???
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 01:34 PM |
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exactly..
While the standard strategy doesn't work there, a true fan of haven faction will invent something of his own and still rock the map.
STANDARD haven sucks against dungeon, but that's because not many good guys play haven and nobody cares to invent a counterstrategy. This is true I thought haven sucks overall for a moment, when I was annoyed by my poor performance, but it wasn't the truth.
A couple of my weird ideas, including excessive training abuse + laszlo + vindicators + anti magic spell, worked better than the standard, so it's up to the players to find the best way.
It's not warcraft 3 where you are virtually limited to 2-3 "decent" strats per map, most of which overlap anyway.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 01:54 PM |
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Edited by okrane at 13:56, 16 Feb 2008.
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I tried Lazlo myself, the problem is you need too much resources too do it.
You would still need crosbowmen to creep as you don't have that many footmen in the begining.
Second, it costs a lot of ore/gold do achieve everything: vindicators + crossbowmen alone cost 40 ore! not to mention the training building which is another 10 and lots of gold.You will probably start training 20 vindicators per week in week 3, and by that time, Academy/Dungeon would have already crept the whole area.
And finally Vindicator creeping is not that good. Their low speed/init would make them kill one stack and take the hits from the others which means you will have losses almost every battle.
It's a good strategy though.
I'm not saying haven can't creep, but playing devil's advocate is a good way to come up with ideas...
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 01:55 PM |
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This creeping requires Royal Griffins and right skills and some spells. If u want to use this just get the Royal Griffins as fast as possile.
Griffins are too important in the final fight. I wouldnt risk to lose them.
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What skills are first of first priority: Leadership and Defense-Last Stand. U begin with this two and then advance on Guardian Angel\Master of Mind.
Why would anyone go for defense with knight's already high defense???
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This creeping strategy completely owns! In week 2 on big map I handled 11 archies, some horde of hydras and much more. Someone to bring the imbarometer
WOW! 11 liches? you should be able to take those at half week 1.
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Note - My favorite heroes are Laszlo(Starts with Defense) and Maeve(starts with Leadership). It's quite easy accessible through this heroes
Actually Maeve is one hell of a starting hero. If i were good with heaven i would pick her 100% of the times.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 01:58 PM |
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Maeve has a great special, but her start is slower than Vittorio and Dougal.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 02:02 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 14:04, 16 Feb 2008.
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yeah, thats what they said about non-deleb inferno... tough start my ass. deleb-banned... inferno picked other heroes and look... deleb its not so necessary... and now they pick grok more than deleb, even if she's not banned anymore.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 04:24 PM |
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actually that's because her special was nerfed in 3.0
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 04:39 PM |
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Their retaliation strike ability can be maxed out on for example if u use laszlo against walkers, since his footman can't be killed easily.. That's quite good for day 1,2,3 fights
Victorio is not as easy to play as in the past, cos the creature got more clever nowadays , they're not going to go for ur ballista if u do 1,1,1,1,1 blocks .
What they fear most is honestly arcane archers or cross bowmen really ... no idea how to take them on early without war machines ....
The griffins method would only be possible on week2 i guess, i would rather go for precise shot from marksmen (This precise shot is haven's best weapon to do crazy creeps i feel)
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 05:23 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 17:23, 16 Feb 2008.
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Look okrane, this is week 3 day 2. 82 spectrals. Keep in mind that i suck at playing heaven and im sure that an experienced haven player would have done that MUCH better.
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we really need a patch, dont we?
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 06:04 PM |
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a few points.
1)You proved that you lost half of your marksmen, which I assume were your only creeping force.
2)Week 3 on what map? Hourglass? These maps are good because Haven can grow fast with lots of army. Have you ever tried Dead Man's Lake? There are some spectrals there too. Try and beat them week 3.
It is much harder. And getting mage guilds is much harder too because of the big ore requirements.
By comparison, Dungeon can just creep those with 1 stalker and firewall/fireball. Even Circle of Winter works...
3) Last Stand and Divine guidance help a lot with this type of creeping.
4) If you check the Haven Strategy Thread, I posted some replays there, a little better than this one.
Suggestion for improvement(in a patch):
*** Increase the radius of the precise shot to 4 squares.
*** Increase the init of Marksmen/Crossbowmen to 9
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted February 16, 2008 06:08 PM |
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No, i proved that heaven can be powerful. i already said that im not good with heaven, so if i'd known what to prioritize i would've had no marksman losses. Besides that, i built up to knights and castle in 2 towns and angels in 1. So....
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 16, 2008 06:54 PM |
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A radius 4 would have been lovely, most seem to prefer crossbowmen for the most part as it is.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2008 12:52 AM |
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No, i proved that heaven can be powerful. i already said that im not good with heaven, so if i'd known what to prioritize i would've had no marksman losses. Besides that, i built up to knights and castle in 2 towns and angels in 1. So....
Then why no one is playing Haven? Economically speaking if a product doesn't sell it means it's something wrong with it, no matter what you are agueing.
So the best proof to give me would be bringing an expert haven player to post some of his opinions. As there are not that many compared to say, Sylvan, Necro, Dungeon or Stronghold players I think it definately shows that this faction has something wrong with it.
My intuition would be its lack of versatility. They can be good on big rich maps, where you can gather tons of army, but sucky on the rest, whereas these other factions behave decently on all maps... just my 2 cents ...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 17, 2008 01:04 AM |
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I'd say it's simply boring, that's why I don't play it
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 17, 2008 01:06 AM |
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*** Increase the radius of the precise shot to 4 squares.
*** Increase the init of Marksmen/Crossbowmen to 9
Marksmen/Crossbowmen and Paladins... are the ones who do not need any kind of re-balancing, they are already too buffed compared to other units (except the overpowered Arcane Archer obviously).
I'd say the other units require more buffing though 
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted February 17, 2008 01:09 AM |
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ok.
You win. I give up. Haven is good as it is. All factions are good as they are. No mod.
Happy?
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