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| Thread: TOH fan letter to Ubi??? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 17, 2008 10:51 PM |
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TOH fan letter to Ubi and Multiplayer MOD
Heroes series has evolved to be the best step by step strategy game ever. Patches(!) that improve the game balance have been mostly accountable for Heroes huge appeal.
Right now we have experienced several game mechanics improvements in H5. However, the latest 3.0, though with the best intentions, has introduced several MAJOR shortcommings. Yet, that is only natural that heroes community have found smart ways to abuse the new 3.0 system. All that's needed is 3.1 patch that amends the overuse of these "smart ways".
Several heroes communities have already contributed a lot to helping Nival/Ubi improving the game. Right now I propose that we, TOH community, do the same by reaching a MUTUAL agreement on aspects to be polished and then write a collective letter to UBI
Namely, IMO here are some of the major "points for improvement":
1. Fixing the stalkers "all the way strategy". It's just WAY BEYOND smart thinking to be able to clear whole map with lvl 1 units only. I've done that several times and did not find much pleasure in it -its so unbalanced. Again, it's heroes of MIGHT AND MAGIC, not magic + lvl 1 only...
2. Flaming arrows. HOF introduced this very interesting perk and then it was also hard to reach. Now, several races can obtain it in first lvl-ups and this ULTRA powerfull perk is accessible at no effort. I suppose, the prerequisites for it must be made more sophisticated... Again, with flaming arrows+exp ballista you can do insane map cleaning by simple moves (same like stalkers)
3. Swift mind. This one is also very cute perk from HOF. Yet again, prerequisites must be different for various races. I don't really think that it should be so easy accesible to massive magic damage factions. Besides, it really invites abuse of hit'n'run...
To conclude, IMO these very fascinating perks must be HARDER to reach and must have different prerequisites for each faction.
I'd really like to know if we, as a TOH community, can reach a consensus what exactly and HOW it should be improved.
Your thoughts?
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted March 18, 2008 01:54 AM |
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Edited by vesuvius at 01:59, 18 Mar 2008.
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muahahahaaaa UBI doesn't care about the fanbase that way -- and since I never kissed a$$ with them I don't think the staffers even know ToH exists, let alone supporting sites closer to them like celestialheavens. Anyways, at this point UBI/nival has moved on to other projects, they are done with homm5.
It doesn't matter that ToH is the only site that's been there from the beginning, it will probably be there after Nival is dismantled too.
Sad thing is that there were less copies of homm5 sold to the public than memberships to my 'special' website this year. Unfortunately what I hear is that nowadays only 5% of people who play a specific PC game have actually bought it. Its becoming harder and harder for PC games to turn a real profit that matters -- so they move to consoles where there is a bigger return. Illegal copying of PC games is now too common.
The great game Crysis only sold 98,000 copies, for example.
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cycleguy
Adventuring Hero
Runs through cornfields naked
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posted March 18, 2008 02:50 AM |
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I agree Strider. Especially with the Warlock senerio.
Warlock, in my opinion, is the strongest faction on any map.
Remember the day when it was unreal that 2 sprites could kill 200 zombies. Now, seven scouts can kill 20lvl 7, 200 of each elemental and 50 death knights? Someone should tell the driver were going in the wrong direction 
I think you made a great point that flaming arrows should be harder to achieve too.
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DIEGIS
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 18, 2008 07:46 AM |
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Edited by DIEGIS at 07:54, 18 Mar 2008.
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I experienced same situations, that sometimes make me laught, sometimes ... make me laught again when seeing ppl proud of their "skills".
I would add here few heroes that unbalance the game on certain maps...but I think this doesnt matter, some ppl would take them anyway, or at least would try to, hoping to get an easy, long, boring win, just to see themself on the top of the list.
But you pointed out exactly the most disturbing issues that destroy the pleasure of a nice game, with no rushing facts. Erasing the maps so fast, could be a pleasure for some ppl (at least some of them dont have a clan yet ), but a good ppl would prefere the unknown situation, the funy thing that can happen' during a good game.
I could get triple balista in day 5 for example...anyone earlier?
Anyway Strider, i've seen you gave the solution as well, so all this things must get along in a later game, for the sake of funny, otherwise all ppl would take dungeon...
I'll add in the end one more thing: i hope Ves is not right...and Ubi to understand that customers are making their profits...
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
muahahahaaaa UBI doesn't care about the fanbase that way -- and since I never kissed a$$ with them I don't think the staffers even know ToH exists, let alone supporting sites closer to them like celestialheavens. Anyways, at this point UBI/nival has moved on to other projects, they are done with homm5.
I agree with Ves regarding general trend in the market. Yet, with H5 fanservice it's been a different story. After all, the oficial release includes MEGA manual and skillwheel made by fans and approved by Nival/Ubi, involvement by Mr. Cambounet, MANY improvements through existing patches due to FAN VOICE only!!! I suppose, things are not that bad...
Besides, from those two, Nival should be our main target, I think. They really do take into account community's suggestions...Perhaps their russian origins/love for strategy games play crucial role 
Also, as far as I know Ubisoft have reaped huge profits last year..
To summarise, we should avoid passivity doubting if developer will listen to us! Instead, we should do our part and supply Nival will a structured "Amendements list" and HOPE that it will reach the addresee Heroesleague.ru already do it and the louder fan voice gets the higher probability of our success 
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the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
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posted March 18, 2008 09:01 AM |
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any incoming patch for h5 will be only an overtime workaholic ubi worker job, mostly a fan kind of job, since it was clearly stated that homm5 project is closed and maybe, maybe, but maybe, in lunch breaks, at a cigarette, someone will look over it and will say : "this should have been done ... or this shouldnt have been changed,.. maybe ill ask Jim to fix it if he's overwhelmed by boredom one day".
lets prey for Jim's health and inspiration in those couple of hours dedicated, eventually, for creating the 3.1 patch.
till then, all we can do is to rely on PLAYERS spirit of a fair and challenging competition. rules are mostly made to be broken, besides they put some extra pressure that might spoil a bit of the game fun.
to be honest , the changes list, the tweaks more likely, its not very long , thx God, and i dont see absolutely no reason to enjoy the game now less than before, just because few "moves" gone public. strider sumarized the most important issues, i might add one :
4. counterspell : it does not work on neutral casters, as intended, but can be cancelled by player's army casters, i dont see why would make any difference between the neutral or flagged ones, which might ruin an entire skill+perks tree that could be the key of your entire strategy. the way i see it is that it should affect the hero only.
have a nice day
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted March 18, 2008 09:05 AM |
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Quote:
I've done that several times and did not find much pleasure in it -its so unbalanced
it's unbalanced because you don't enjoy the game?
Quote:
Again, with flaming arrows+exp ballista you can do insane map cleaning by simple moves (same like stalkers)
It is very often the only effective way of creeping for might factions.
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Ceres
Supreme Hero
and sweetness
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posted March 18, 2008 09:51 AM |
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Quote:
1. Fixing the stalkers "all the way strategy". It's just WAY BEYOND smart thinking to be able to clear whole map with lvl 1 units only. I've done that several times and did not find much pleasure in it -its so unbalanced. Again, it's heroes of MIGHT AND MAGIC, not magic + lvl 1 only...
But I enjoy with it. 
____________
And when the stars fall, I
will lie awake. You're my
shooting star.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 09:54 AM |
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Edited by samiekl at 10:02, 18 Mar 2008.
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diegis i dont have a clan yet because i dont wanna play clans anymore. Im thinking about quitting toh too, so dont worry...
Cycleguy have you tried killing those guards with 7 stalkers? i guess not. it takes lots of suicides and many losses reported. why dont you, diegis and cycleguy play dungeon and lets see how you fare with them
you've never had anything to say about orcs' vulnerability to dark, or how other magic schools are useless vs them, or how broken is divine vengeance, or other more important things.
final words from me is that you guys are just bad losers
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diegis
Supreme Hero
power of Zamolxis
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posted March 18, 2008 10:23 AM |
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Edited by diegis at 10:55, 18 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
final words from me is that you guys are just bad losers
Man if I'd be a "bad looser" and perhaps you a "good winner", I wouldnt had a game with you, I wouldnt report my lost games against you (even the won one), and I wouldnt want to play against you. You know we had good games, and had good time spending in games...Also you know I dont care if you use any strategy, correct? By the way, you cant quit 'cose we have a game unfinished...
So, in my eyes will be a great loss if u leave toh...i see no reason at all. I asked you many times to create a clan...but you refuses..y? edit: cose u prefer to stay in that "hole" heroes V - tote offers u
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dacian falx behind you
-knowledge itself is power-
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 11:03 AM |
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@Topic Starter:
All you propose there as changes CAN BE EASILY MADE INTO A MOD!
So, honestly, why wait around for Nival to make them when you can make it yourself.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 11:46 AM |
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Quote:
All you propose there as changes CAN BE EASILY MADE INTO A MOD!
So, honestly, why wait around for Nival to make them when you can make it yourself.
Hmm, perhaps you are right, Okrane! While we still need to produce a common letter to Ubi, we definetely can endeavour to create a MOD
As I have mentioned in forum before, Russian community already use Mod. Those who can read russian can find it here toghther with discussions:
http://forum.heroesleague.ru/viewtopic.php?t=7029&sid=1bdc09b46b23ae5bacba365032628f66
IMO, it's TOO EXTENSIVE and changes the gameplay a lot! However, if we can master our own MOD with some 5-10 changes AND Toh community agrees on using it for games, then the problem would be solved
I'd like to remind that exactly this happened in H4 times at Toh with introduction of Equilibris Mod I wonder if we can attain the same this time...
 Also, I forgot to mention Divine Vengeance that needs a bit restructured formula. I don't agree with guys that totally ban it but I definetely comply that it needs to be downsized. Right now it messes with the very concept of Might and Magic balance as pure might/light factions can emanate ~2K dmg stepping into reign of Dungeon while still being the MIGHT powerhouse.
We should discuss that formula here as well (or take example from russian Mod).
Anyway, I'd really like this thread to become a poligon for brainstorming ideas HOW EXACTLY these imbalances should be tackled
To Samiekl: I understand your feelings and reasons for setting up dungeon clan and that it takes some skill to manage stalkers. Yet, I hope you would agree that the very idea of clearing the whole map with a handful of lvl 1 units is absurd and unbalanced compared to other races... My record is to break full utopia (22 dragons) on day 10-12 (was left with 1 stalker)...
To the point:
1. Please, suggest SPECIFIC changes that needs to be done to the game
2. Express your opinion about creating and using our own MOD till patch comes out (if ever)
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 12:10 PM |
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Strider, how can dungeon go through the game without losses and manage to stand a chance in final fight? Every other race has something, dungeon has stalkers. Necro has raise dead, inferno has gates and dark magic, orcs have rage and tent, other castles have ressurection and powerful army, what does dungeon have? Honestly now, how tough is for dungeon in final fights even with those stalkers and perfect creeping? And im not talking about 1 castle maps, but HG for example, or battlezone. I had a game vs teacher, perfect game for me, rushed the hell out of him and still barely won vs those freaking dwarves with my whole 4 weeks worth army.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 12:12 PM |
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Dungeon needs a buff to their creatures' stats!
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 12:15 PM |
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Bullsnow, creatures are strong. Very low growth and no defense screws them, also, no shooters. Assassins are not shooters, witches are a lvl 6 (not so good) shooter.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 12:19 PM |
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Diegis (and maybe Cycleguy), i wont play against you unless you choose dungeon in HG.
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okrane
Famous Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 12:35 PM |
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Quote:
Bullsnow, creatures are strong. Very low growth and no defense screws them, also, no shooters. Assassins are not shooters, witches are a lvl 6 (not so good) shooter.
Well, by boosting their stats we overcompensate this. And I was thinking to keep the original idea of the devs of a low growth town...
So by giving them extra defense we compensate the lack of defense of the warlock, and by giving them extra hitpoints and attack or damage we compensate their low growth 
Sammy, you're never satisfied too...
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sq79
Famous Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 12:47 PM |
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I think good way to balance is when stalkers pressed invisible, enemy creature will at least dance around the field abit with the chance to touch the invisible creature instead of waiting and waiting , doing 6 time damage with firewall/ignite etc. Wonder can it be done ?
That really is the key to the 7 stalker fights. Its just abit too easy to play nowadays compared with hof or 1.0 days.
Trust me samiekl, you do need alot more skills to play dungeon in the past than now
Other than this, there's this last stand perk, the outcome is ridiculous if anyone tries hit and run with last stand and 2 7 stacks of stalkers , so maybe we all can consider banning this in a real game? So far all players i've met are gentlement and kind enough not to do this.
But one fine day when someone did it, i can bet it will be posted all over here in the forum again
But I feel ubi shld remove this disturbing looking perk though.
As for flaming ballista, maybe it should go into one of the skills of war machines, ballista/triple/flaming. So no first aid tent. At least fights with titans or other shooters need to think twice
Orcs with rage protection and first aid tent, with flaming ballista, that's also another ridiculous creep.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 12:55 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 12:57, 18 Mar 2008.
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I know sq that in hof days was alot more complicated. But then dungeon was underpowered. Now its very ok as it is. Though, i agree with that firewall, its plain stupid. But changing anything to dungeon will make them again as in hof. I have no problem in changing the AI. its stupid and i dont think anyone can argue with that, and not only dungeon benefits from it
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted March 18, 2008 01:53 PM |
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Guys, I'd appreciate if this thread does not become another dungeon discussion 
Mind that I'm not talking about dungeons chances in final battle but about this ridiculous creeping...
As to suggestions about particular changes:
Stalkers:
1. Initiative could be cut down to 7-8 but resume to 12 after applying invisibility. This way "stalker strategy" is more risky. Though, at least 3 invisible stalkers still left.... Not sure if it really solves the problem.
2. About Sq suggestion... I don't think that AI behaviour can be changed with MOD
3. Russians in their Mod (made by Moz) did this:
Stalkers lost invisibility, acquired 19 hit points, no retaliation ability and initiative 11.
Flaming arrows and Swift mind:
I'll post link to the skillwheel used by that Heroesleague Mod next week...
Divine Vengeance:
1. Here's what Russian Mod did:
3.0 formula is F*(60+6*SP) vs. Mod formula: F*(40+0.5*SP)
For instance, with spellpower 10 you would do ~220 dmg for 5 killed paladins and 450 dmg for 100 killed peasants. IMO it has been cut too much, but the idea is clear...
About Teacher's suggestions regarding Counterspell:
I agree that it should be corrected for use on neutrals but I object about cancelling creature abilities to remove it - now there are some funny ways how to counter this perk in final battle and those should remain intact (the more complicated the more fun). 
If we achieve agreement about necessity of MOD, then, perhaps we can delegate some of us skilled in the stuff (Fiur, Nevermindspy,..) to create it....
P.s. I wish Moderator could remove posts not directly related to the subject...
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