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| Thread: Population idea, crazy or not? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Zeljko_K
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 31, 2008 03:13 PM |
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Edited by Zeljko_K at 15:22, 31 Mar 2008.
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Population idea, crazy or not?
Hi all, I am new in forum but old heroes player, "since beginning of time" when WELL in heroes 2 was great innovation for us used on heroes1! 
I've seen your posts, they are all great, remarkable!! So much great ideas about h6!, it is hard not to spoil it
I didn't find anything regarding city population in which direction I have ideas, so please read and make my suggestion even better, or spit in my face , if I deserve it.
Reading history books about medieval conquests, crusades and all, (which are closest world history ages to heroes mechanics of swords, catapults, ballistas and so) you get impression how cities made income regarding trade routes and population size, which is maybe to much Civilization game style, but I miss that population size while making comparison to world history and "the greatest game in world" - heroes V.
To work a little bit on this:
- Min pop: 5.000
- Max pop: 1.000.000 (10 steps in pop growth is max, probably less is batter)
- City grows with time and regarding buildings, but more important is that mines will boost city growth, all 7 mines but preferential is wood and ore.
- When you conquer a city there shouldn't be riots as in CIV game, no democracy in heroes, but there should be some or serious population drops while conquering cites, especially if you conquer opposite alignment (like when Christians did capture some Muslim fortified city, it was usual to kill every man inside and sell women to slavery)
- Another option when conquering city is to have a choice, either to demolish it (when u know u r not gonna keep it) or to keep it whole (it would be logical that you have to rebuilt castle and citadel regarding time in combat and catapult efficiency)
This is it for now, of course all suggestions are very welcome and excuse my English, I am not native speaking it (I am form Croatia)
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 03:33 PM |
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We're turning HOMM to Civilazation, ah? 
I actually think that it may be a good idea to add the population cocnept to the game. The others may be a bit too much.
How this can work
1. Every town starts with a population of 1000 citizens, and a growth of 10% per a turn.
2. Upgrading the town hall adds automatically 50% population (remember that amount of citizens increases their group, since it's in percentages).
3. Every time a town is captured, 20% citizens are killed in the battles.
4. Upgrading the fort reduces the attacks' killed citizens by 5%.
5. Each mine captured in a radius of 10 tiles from the town or close, the growth of the population increases by 4%.
What does population give?
1. Every time the population grows by 200% (when it reaches to 3000, 9000, 27000...) there's a bonus of 10% to the creatures growth in the town.
2. Every time the population grows by 100% (when it reaches to 2000, 4000, 8000...) there's a bonus of 20% to the town income.
3. Every time the population grows by 200%, the production of resources at mines which are in a radius of 10 tiles from the town or closer, is increased by 1.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted March 31, 2008 04:00 PM |
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I think it might become to much, but it could actually be a good idea. But since we were supposed to be a bit historical I think the population should be lower in the beginning. And how about undead? They don't have any loyalty (or way to much), and all their pop. should be killed since they obey they masters whatever happens. And they don't breed. I really don't know if I like it or not. I think only would be working in a good and "reality like" way in a human faction.
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Zeljko_K
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 31, 2008 04:25 PM |
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Quote:
We're turning HOMM to Civilazation, ah?
 you sure could say that
it is big relief for me that first reply is positive
your numbers are concrete and looking balanced, where did you get them from, or they are your drawings?
My opinion is that adding population while keeping it simple would benefit to the game, but then again, who am I to judge?
Shares, thanks for comment. I don't know how do undead breed, but i think of Sauron's orcs in LOTR 1 movie, plus cites built on cemeteries and so.. One way or other, I am sure that it won't be the problem
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 04:27 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 16:29, 31 Mar 2008.
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Really good idea, maybe i will steal it... maybe 
*goes to "Xerox HoMM6 II"*
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted March 31, 2008 04:58 PM |
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Edited by Snatch at 17:04, 31 Mar 2008.
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I also had the idea of population some time ago and presented my idea in ICTC3 as part of my Pallas faction. I will quote myself.
"Every town now has a specific amount of citizens which pay the taxes (the main income). Citizens have a daily growth and will grow to a certain amount given by the town level. The growth rate can either be linear (depending on town level or amount of population) or in form of a parabola with lesser growth if the population is low or near to a towns limit. But I think that this is a point of balancing on which I can hardly decide at the moment. We'll see. In your towns there are two types of units. First recruits which need citizens and some training and second the mercenaries which are animals, constructs, magical beasts and so on. If a citizen becomes a recruit he will no longer pay taxes, resembling the fragile line between armament and a working economy. Mercenaries are in general more costly to hire because they don't need one of the tax paying citizens as a requirement. They just need gold and ressources to hire."
"A special note concerning the dwellings: growing will be stored, training must be commanded and will decay at the end of the week. A new feature associated with the defender of home special is the 'call to arms'. If your city gets under attack you can choose the citizens to defend their homes and fight in this siege as an additional stack. That will cause no costs. After the battle the surviving units will be added to population again. But yes, it's a hard decision to risk the lifes of your tax payers. Even under siege. If all citizens died in the battle the town will become abandoned and will have no growth of population unless you dismiss some of your recruits to populate the town again."
"Economy
settlement - daily growing of settlers, total number of settlers is restricted
village (upgr. settlement) - total number of settlers is raised
town (upgr. village) - total number of settlers is raised
city (upgr. town) - total number of settlers is raised
capital (upgr. city) - total number of settlers is raised
town hall - raises the taxes, more money per settler is given
trade guild - gives a percentage bonus to daily income
market place - trading ressources
ressource silo - gives a rare ressource each day"
"Creature growth
well - increases growth of population
reservation - increases growth of mercenaries
training hall - increases growth of recruits"
Some explanations:
In my concept the mercenaries have growing and the recruits were trained. 'Defender of home' is a creature special of one of the tier 1 units in each town (peasant, shepherd, cultist, hunter, gatherer, thug,...). Some buildings improve the 'defender of home' special (higher stats, added special,...). A town hall only raises the income coming from population whereas the trade guild includes gold mines and similar adventure objects, hero abilities or artifacts too. The names of the buildings are from the Pallas faction and may differ in other towns.
@ GenieLord:
I think you need a population maximum. A town doesn't have an endless capacity.
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LucJPatenaude
Disgraceful
Known Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 06:41 PM |
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GL has posted the possibility of Max. cap to towns.
And, City Hall boosts it all even further.
Having built the Capitol over the City Hall boosts it all the way to 1,000,000 citizens.
In reality Cities can reach upto 10,000,000 citizens. That type of city is now, called, Metropolis. But, of course, in HoMM6, we will limit the Cities to 1,000,000 citizens.
BTW : I am the one whom brought this all up, several weeks or months ago.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted March 31, 2008 07:01 PM |
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Did he? I only see a maximum in Zeljko_K's posting.
But I don't see why upgrading the town hall should add population. I think it better should raise the maximum and maybe raise the growing. For me that would be more logical.
And I don't know who brought this things up. I'm rather new in this forum. But I think this is one of those ideas several people have in several times independently of each other.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 07:05 PM |
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Quote:
@ GenieLord:
I think you need a population maximum. A town doesn't have an endless capacity
I agree.
Since the towns of HOMM seem pretty giantic, 1,000,000 will be a reasonable maximum. It will be very very hard to reach that maximum, so probably nobody would get to it. If you would get to it, you play too much. That would be like a sign of "You played enough! Get some sleep!"
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted March 31, 2008 07:19 PM |
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Sorry to ruin the fun, but... you all forget one simple difference between HoMM and Civilization: Civilization runs for thousands of in-game years, HoMM - for several month (2-3 years if you're playing really slowly).
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted March 31, 2008 07:43 PM |
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@ Geny:
Concerning HoMM that doesn't matter. Or do you think it's logical to hire about 100 new soldiers (human units, haven) every week or construct huge buildings in only one day? But nevertheless numbers shouldn't be a problem, they can be adjusted easily. If necessary you can lower the growth rate of population and creatures or you just change a day into a week. Or something else.
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Zeljko_K
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 31, 2008 08:49 PM |
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Snatch is right, time lines are irrelevant, game balance is that that matters, and if population ads on balance and helps more skillful player gets more advantage, it is good idea, if we keep it simple.
I apologize for opening new old topic, but I did search for topics regarding population and didn't find any.. sure GinieLOrd already haves some good population logarithm, which I would change a bit, wouldn't we all, but important is that game developers catch good topics in Altar of Wishes and build game strategy, logarithms and formulas, they sure have more knowledge and it is their job after all.
It is fascinating for me that Jerusalem had 1.000.000 people in year 1100 and 34 kilometers of defensive walls, with only 4 gates.., so there I got cap of 1 million, to put more people inside walls is hard to imagine.
I was thinking about if you invade army less town you will capture for free if you are same alignment, but if opposite population would be afraid of slaughter and raise to arms, creating some amount of tier 1 creatures, and if they defend the city population drop would be proportional to army loss. Example is if necro invades heaven city, population would be devastated and would not surrender city and their lives without fight.
I agree that upper paragraph is not "keeping it simple", but I kinda like it..
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted March 31, 2008 09:07 PM |
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Quote:
I was thinking about if you invade army less town you will capture for free if you are same alignment, but if opposite population would be afraid of slaughter and raise to arms, creating some amount of tier 1 creatures, and if they defend the city population drop would be proportional to army loss. Example is if necro invades heaven city, population would be devastated and would not surrender city and their lives without fight.
I agree that upper paragraph is not "keeping it simple", but I kinda like it..
I agree on this point. 
My 'defender of home' special and 'call to arms' option follows the same direction.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 09:09 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:11, 31 Mar 2008.
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I think its a very nice idea.
This is how i think it should be.
First of all, you could transport inhabitants between the cities and for each week you will get some new citizens to live and work in your town.
Lets say you start with 1000 citizens (medieval towns was not that big, like today and mostly probably only started out as very small outposts or villages).
You should get more gold per week for more citizens who work.
For each town level you get 3 more citizens each week.
Village Hall = 1000 Citizens = 5 extra gold per day.
Town Hall = 50.000 Citizens = 250 extra gold per day.
City Hall = 100.000 Citizens = 750 extra gold per day.
Capitol = 250.000 citizens = 1000 extra gold per day.
It might sound little but you get more citizens each week depending on what faction level.
1000000 should be max.
1000000 could be 5000 extra gold per week.
Plus you would get more citizens per week as your food rescourse grows (new rescourse) and increase with some % if you have the nobility ability.
Thats what i think.
This also changes the sackable and destructive town ideas i had for my H6. If you sack, 50% of the population should die of starving or disease etc. If you destroy, almost all would die and you would take 10% as slaves to your own town.
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted March 31, 2008 09:43 PM |
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Quote:
You should get more gold per week for more citizens who work.
That's the point of my concept. I connected the income directly to the citizens. And all citizens who work are those you don't train as recruits (as those they also can be transported from one city to another). The town level generates the income therefore just indirectly in restricting the total number of citizens. I wanted to change that a building generates your income. It's much more logical that citizens generate it.
Quote:
Plus you would get more citizens per week as your food rescourse grows (new rescourse) and increase with some % if you have the nobility ability.
Oh, oh, oh... I remember very well a member in our german forum Drachenwald who suggested food (delivered by citizens in town buildings and some adventure objects) as new ressource and requirement for the upkeep of soldiers/creatures. He got mainly negative responses.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 09:58 PM |
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My food rescourse would probably be very diffrent from his
Because i translate what you said would be "that would suck".
I was thinking it would be just like wood or mercury, the rescourse place is the Farm, slaugthering animals and harvesting stuff.
The more food you have, the higher your population will rise.
The citizens who not work just train to soldiers... so they are the normal creatures
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted March 31, 2008 10:32 PM |
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While i think the idea is nice, it drastically increases the value of towns and micromanagement. It could be an overkill. I think there is power in simplicity.
However, there is always a possibility I'm wrong
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 10:33 PM |
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Quote:
It is fascinating for me that Jerusalem had 1.000.000 people in year 1100 and 34 kilometers of defensive walls, with only 4 gates.., so there I got cap of 1 million, to put more people inside walls is hard to imagine.
Jerusalem had 1,000-10,000, not 1,000,000 citizens in those years, and 7 gates. Today there are 600,000 citizens in Jeruslam. I live 60 kilometers from Jeruslam, BTW.
@Xerox: I think that letting the town level to affect the growth is a very good idea. A great city (one with a high town level) is more attractive than a small village, and more people would come to live in it.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted March 31, 2008 11:26 PM |
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Here's a thought: This suggests population of the core race, what about the beasts of the faction (Griffins, Unicorns, Dragons, etc) should they be factored in?
Also, how does this work with Necropolis?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 11:42 PM |
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Quote:
Here's a thought: This suggests population of the core race, what about the beasts of the faction (Griffins, Unicorns, Dragons, etc) should they be factored in?
They would go directly to dweellings. No need to include them in the population.
Quote:
Also, how does this work with Necropolis?
I thought about it too, and I have an idea:
Necropolis would have rate of death. The undead citizens are raised dead people from other factions. The rate of death would be similar to the growth in the rest of the factions. All the rules of the growth would apply on it as well.
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