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| Thread: To donate or not to donate? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 22, 2008 08:50 PM |
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Human clones, like computers, don't have a soul or a brain, they are just some cells.
How do you know (regarding the soul)?
As for the cells, they are human cells, biologically.
They are still human cells nonetheless, and evolve/mutate/whatever the term is.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted June 22, 2008 08:52 PM |
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How do you know (regarding the soul)?
Surely you don't think humans are able to create souls?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 22, 2008 08:54 PM |
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How do you know (regarding the soul)?
Surely you don't think humans are able to create souls?
What do you mean by that, because we don't actually 'create' anything, we just manipulate (so by that logic we don't create anything at all). Even in 'normal' ways of having children. My opinion on this subject doesn't matter, the thing is that we don't know.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 22, 2008 09:02 PM |
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I don't know what made me this image of 'authoritarian' but I think otherwise.
Let's see... you're anti-choice, against economic freedom and the free market, and want to teach religious creationism in schools. That makes you an authoritarian.
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for me forcing someone into your property and then harming him is no way 'justifiable' just because he broke your property
Contrived analogy time!
Let us say that you have a friend who is a qudrapalegic. One day, you're talking to him..
You: Hey, want to come to my house?
Him: Sure.
So you carry him to your house. After having him over for a couple of hours
You: OK, this was fun. But now I have to do something else, so if you'll let me carry you off the property...
Him: No way! I'm not leaving.
You: k, then. You're committing tresspass. I'm carrying you off!
And you do. And you have the right to do so.
The mother has no obligation to carry the fetus to term. At all.
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the thing is that we don't know
You don't know, yet insist on imposing your preferences on others.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 22, 2008 09:07 PM |
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Let's see... you're anti-choice
Do you consider murder a choice? If that makes me authoritarian, so be it.
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against economic freedom and the free market
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and want to teach religious creationism in schools.
So are schools authoritarian? Who decides what to teach in them is authoritarian? Are teachers authoritarian? But on the other hand, I'm not forcing them to learn it, unlike "mandatory" classes.
I would call those authoritarian if I were you
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You: Hey, want to come to my house?
Him: Sure.
So you carry him to your house. After having him over for a couple of hours
You: OK, this was fun. But now I have to do something else, so if you'll let me carry you off the property...
Him: No way! I'm not leaving.
You: k, then. You're committing tresspass. I'm carrying you off!
And you do. And you have the right to do so.
He said sure, did the mother ask the fetus or does she know in any way? Or did the fetus was born in her body because he wanted to instead of the mother? It's more like:
"You: Hey Bob, I'm gonna drag you to my house!" and Bob's statement doesn't even matter (not that he would speak anyway), because he has no choice.
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You don't know, yet insist on imposing your preferences on others.
You know something? When someone does not know if a bridge is going to collapse or not (and no engineers available), you don't cross the bridge. You're the one who says "walk on it" even if we don't know what we're dealing with.
You don't know -- you stay out of it
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 22, 2008 09:13 PM |
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Do you consider murder a choice?
I don't consider it murder unless the fetus is viable. If every fetus can't be aborted, then what about just fertilized eggs? They're potential life as well. How about sperm?
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But on the other hand, I'm not forcing them to learn it, unlike "mandatory" classes.
We should teach students how to reason and use the scientific method. Then they'd be able to make their own choices.
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did the mother ask the fetus or does she know in any way?
She can't, because before conception it doesn't exist. But does the fetus ask to exist?
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When someone does not know if a bridge is going to collapse or not (and no engineers available), you don't cross the bridge.
But you don't stop others from crossing it. You can tell them, "Hey, I don't know if that bridge is safe or not!" but you can't say, "YOU CAN'T CROSS THAT BRIDGE!!!"
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 22, 2008 09:39 PM |
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I don't consider it murder unless the fetus is viable. If every fetus can't be aborted, then what about just fertilized eggs? They're potential life as well. How about sperm?
That is different. The fetus is not only potential life, it's a potential life that has already started -- he will turn into a 'normal human' by itself since it started already, that's why you have to kill him in order to stop him.
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We should teach students how to reason and use the scientific method.
By your previous logic, this is also authoritarian.
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Then they'd be able to make their own choices.
I say they are able before as well.
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She can't, because before conception it doesn't exist. But does the fetus ask to exist?
Did you ask to exist? Well, at least give him a chance to know that. You've already been born, had your chance, etc... let others as well
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But you don't stop others from crossing it. You can tell them, "Hey, I don't know if that bridge is safe or not!" but you can't say, "YOU CAN'T CROSS THAT BRIDGE!!!"
Actually you can, if the bridge collapses, it may cause damages, etc.. labeling it as accident is just lame -- you were warned. I think you should take responsibility for it. If you kill a few people because it collapsed, well I think you get the idea 
But I think I made my point and it's turning into the abortion subject. I will not comment on this anymore unless others seem interested. But that does not mean I will ignore it
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 22, 2008 09:43 PM |
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I'm sorry that you see things that way, TheDeath. It appears that even with my debating abilities, I am unable to convince you. But, likewise, even with your formidable debating abilities, you are unable to convince me. We've beaten this subject to death ().
A question, though. What do you think about cloning for reproductive purposes?
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 22, 2008 09:47 PM |
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I'm sorry that you see things that way, TheDeath. It appears that even with my debating abilities, I am unable to convince you. But, likewise, even with your formidable debating abilities, you are unable to convince me. We've beaten this subject to death ().
Usually I like debates but after Corribus' comment I am feeling somewhat guilty for this thread, you know
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A question, though. What do you think about cloning for reproductive purposes?
If it means that we create 'normal' humans I don't think it would be that much of a problem if we treat them normally. But let me think about this subject for a while 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 22, 2008 10:43 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 22:46, 22 Jun 2008.
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Human clones, like computers, don't have a soul or a brain, they are just some cells. I don't see anything about harming someone here, on the contrary, we can help a lot of people with those cells that make up the organs.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.... what?!
@theDeath
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Usually I like debates but after Corribus' comment I am feeling somewhat guilty for this thread, you know
No, by all means, proceed. I imagine that once I get around to reading all this, I'll probably dive in myself.
(I consider organ harvesting of cloned life forms an important aspect to the organ-donation issue. I think cloning humans for that purpose is probably a little far out there at this point, but there have been, I believe, serious suggestions about cloning animals - pigs, etc. - for xenotransplantation purposes.)
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 22, 2008 10:55 PM |
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Human clones, like computers, don't have a soul or a brain, they are just some cells.
The existence of a soul is questionable. As for a brain, is a brain not a bunch of cells?
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Eccentric Opinion
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 22, 2008 11:07 PM |
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How exactly can anyone say with any certainty that human clones don't have souls? To my knowledge, there aren't any human clones wandering around.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted June 22, 2008 11:30 PM |
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How exactly can anyone say with any certainty that human clones don't have souls?
How exactly can anyone say with any certainty that humans have souls?
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Eccentric Opinion
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted June 22, 2008 11:38 PM |
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Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another 30 pages of "if I can't see it, it's not real" vs. "you either believe it or you don't" debates.
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 23, 2008 09:43 AM |
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Thread opener can contact me if he wants to change thread name...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted June 23, 2008 12:30 PM |
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The existence of a soul is questionable.
If you don't know what you're doing (e.g you are not an engineer), it's better not to try to repair the broken bridge
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As for a brain, is a brain not a bunch of cells?
Seriously, by that logic, humans are nothing but cells, so that means they have no more rights than a cell or a clone...  (I'm not saying they are more than cells if you believe that, but there's that 'something' that gives them rights so to speak, and is universal, not inherited in a human family or society!)
Human rights are not defined by their usefulness in society you know. Again, to claim that our rights depend on such factors is to deny that human beings have human dignity. Do we have inherent value simply by being members of the human family? We are talking about the right to life. Is that a 'measurable' right or is it composed of qualities in humans than can change depending on someone's view ('usefulness')? If that's what you're implying then that means nothing is equal at all, there are no inherent human rights to speak of.. just privileges for the strong
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Asheera
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Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted June 23, 2008 05:15 PM |
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Human clones, like computers, don't have a soul or a brain, they are just some cells. I don't see anything about harming someone here, on the contrary, we can help a lot of people with those cells that make up the organs.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.... what?!
I was talking about the brainless clones mvass and Death were arguing about.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted June 23, 2008 07:13 PM |
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Well, the argument has been going on too long for me to find a good entry point, so I won't go back and quote bits and pieces. I'll wait and see if anything else develops. But I wanted to ask, did any of you ever see "The Island"?
@Consis
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I like Corribus' threads. He makes good threads. It is good that he chooses to come to Heroes Community
Thanks, I'll be sure to make more of them.
@angelito
You can rename the thread to something more appropriate if you want.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Kipshasz
Undefeatable Hero
Elvin's Darkside
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posted June 23, 2008 08:33 PM |
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i've seen,few guys mentioned abortions. i'd like to talk about it some more.
the way i se it: its a murder of a person who isnt even born. if a girl doesnt want a child why the -beep- she got pregnant? probably from unsafe sex(in other words no condom) i think that the girls who wants to have abortion are just shaking off responsibility. a child isnt just a toy,(s)he is a living thing. i'll become a father myself(somewhere around November). And i'm very happy about this. of course i've have to work long hours to save some money for my son (or daughter). i'm against this sort of thing.
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted June 23, 2008 08:42 PM |
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<*points towards the right topic*>
What does it take to become a clone ORGAN DONOR !?
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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