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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 16, 2010 11:08 AM |
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Not listening to your emotions is not always the best move. Take fear. By the time you 'reason' out that yes you should have moved as that car came barrelling down on you..you are already splattered on the road.
Also you can experience emotions without letting them control you. I am not sure I agree with your assesment of what emotions are, but that is beside the point. Even if they are exactly like what you describe, makes no difference. We are not machines, and were never meant to be. Parents wouldn't care for their children, people would kill for no reason, and the world would be a pretty horrible place to be in. Of course we wouldn't notice...or if we did we wouldn't care.
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ohforfsake
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posted March 16, 2010 11:19 AM |
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Not listening to your emotions is not always the best move. Take fear. By the time you 'reason' out that yes you should have moved as that car came barrelling down on you..you are already splattered on the road.
I agree, though one could also see it as an example of being bad prepared. One should not be dependent of ones emotions, if it can be avoided. Though as the world is now, we dependent on lots and lots of things that really aren't us. Our memory, senses and ability to think really is not needed for us to exist, yet without them, we'd have a really hard time doing much if anything. So eventhough the focus of independence seems high in the world of today, we're in reality still very dependent on the talents we recieve that we've no choosing about, like intelligence and memory.
So one should not stop using these, it is just, I think it'd be best to try to be as independent of these as possible.
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Also you can experience emotions without letting them control you.
Yes I know that. 
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We are not machines, and were never meant to be.
Funny thing, I remember a doctor who episode where they defined the machine as bad, because they had no emotion, making them bad, or something.
However I don't see machines like that, anyone can write a "reward mechanism" program, that gives the impression of emotions. No what really seperates us from machines, I believe, is consciousness.
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Parents wouldn't care for their children, people would kill for no reason, and the world would be a pretty horrible place to be in.
If the only thing that stopped these things were emotions, I'd say that these parents weren't fit for children, nor were these people in control over themselves. Because the random act of killing for no reason, is a reaction to an emotion, I think, boredom.
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Living time backwards
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted March 16, 2010 11:21 AM |
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but I honestly would prefer doing what I want, and not do something I may not want just to get a reward in return
If you do what you want won't that activate the reward system anyways? Putting emotions aside saying that they confine your concious self from doing what you want is silly. The brain, hormone system, subconciousness, emotions and how you react to them is all part of your entity. Unless you deem yourself as some sort of astral sentient being contained in a flesh vessel. And that vessel influences the 'you' inside of it to do something againts what 'you' want - meaning it has some sort of will of it's own?
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none of my business.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 16, 2010 11:33 AM |
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Actually why would they care if their children lived or died without emotions. Think about those animals that abandon their young as soon as they are born. They could care less (ie have no emotion regarding their offspring) if their offspring live or die.
It would pretty much be male meets female, coppulation, birth..abandonment. Because there would be no emotion attached, as they would have none.
As for why would they kill? Easy..because the person inconvienced them, or had something they wanted...etc. They would have no reason NOT to. Person is born with a defect..kill them..they do no good to anybody. No emotion, cold and calculating. Even the vulcan has strong emotions (they just control them). Nah, not having emotions does make us cold blooded machines that would just look out for ourselves and that would pretty much break down society.
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ohforfsake
Promising
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posted March 16, 2010 11:34 AM |
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If you do what you want won't that activate the reward system anyways?
Not necessarily. That is, what one lusts for and what one wants can be very different. I've had dreams were I did not want to beat people up, or take revenge, eventhough I did, as it was a dream, and I got some reward mechanism activated. Had I not done it, I doubt I'd get much reward, like when I stopped my food addiction in my earlier life, I did not get any emotional reward of accomplishment, or anything, but I got what I wanted.
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Putting emotions aside saying that they confine your concious self from doing what you want is silly.
Yes it is, but I don't say emotions are bad, I say blindly following emotions are bad. The strength/power of emotion is fine, the problem comes when you've to follow certain acts and rituals to get this reward and that person you claim to love is nothing but a way to activate this reward mechanism.
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The brain, hormone system, subconciousness, emotions and how you react to them is all part of your entity.
I agree, but as you already did, you can divide it up in several random groups. I find a group based on real life experience the most logical one.
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Unless you deem yourself as some sort of astral sentient being contained in a flesh vessel. And that vessel influences the 'you' inside of it to do something againts what 'you' want - meaning it has some sort of will of it's own?
Not sure if I follow you here. I think the 'you' or consciousness/inner observer/soul/unique entity of existance as I call it, is some kind of unknown physical process that due to the laws of the universe allows the possibility of existance. From I observe, thereby I am, I think I am right.
So you can, if you want, group it as consciosness contra the body, or consciosuness + free will contra the body, or however you want, just call it all a bunch of chemicals if you'd like.
To me, eveything that's not the consciousness, is not really you, but tools and effects of the world that you've been randomly given.
And the ability to act upon the world (free will) and getting what you want (freedom), together with preserving consciosuness, is really what I find important.
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Actually why would they care if their children lived or died without emotions.
Because it is logical. If I am alive, then it's likely that persons who also does acts of what we call the living are alive.
As I want to keep on living, it's likely they want the same. However all in all, what I want, is what I want, and logical they want the same. So if I were in their spot, I'd want me to help "me" get what "I" want. If what "I" want does not go against, what I (myself) want, then I'll help, because that's what "I"'d have wanted.
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Think about those animals that abandon their young as soon as they are born. They could care less (ie have no emotion regarding their offspring) if their offspring live or die.
I think it is because their logical thinking is at another level than ours. They might not even be able to consider it. Remember thought are just an ability you more or less are born with. What I find more likely is that these creatures, who I believe are observers, unique existences, just like us, are much more emotional driven than what we are. They follow the reward mechanism like a robot and if their youngs aren't a part of that mechanism, tough luck.
That's why I think we see more mammals that care for their young, than any other species, because their brain is so evolved they're not a process of acting on emotions.
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It would pretty much be male meets female, coppulation, birth..abandonment.
The drive for sex is emotional, so is the attraction. It is in my opinion not the logical part that defines wants. If there were no pleasure in sex, I doubt many would find it logical to put their peeing mechanism up in someone elses peeing mechanism, more or less.
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As for why would they kill? Easy..because the person inconvienced them, or had something they wanted...etc. They would have no reason NOT to.
I disagree, the exact reason is the same reason as they'd want to exist in the first place, or wanting something at all actually.
I think that the non caring feature, which you see in serial murders, etc. is something I think is likewise an emotion, because these people may murder randomly, but their reasons seem for what I know often to be that of some kind of a reward mechanism. That is again, emotions, blindly followed.
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Nah, not having emotions does make us cold blooded machines that would just look out for ourselves and that would pretty much break down society.
It is funny, what you just described, is the world I'd describe, if we only had emotions and no wants. 
Please remember, that emotions are genetical decided, and as that is random to a certain degree, it makes people get rewards for all sorts of peculiar behaviour. However those who get rewarded for reproduction are more likely to carry this over to the next generation, whereby such an emotion is more likely. However the uncertainity that is evolution does not prevent all sorts of emotions to happen, and if have no wants, that's we just follow these emotions randomly, then we'd not think logically, and do whatever pleases us, and that would make us cold blooded machiens that I think would just look out for ourselves (what we feel like).
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ohforfsake
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posted March 16, 2010 12:02 PM |
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Doh, sorry for double post, I thought I was editing.
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Living time backwards
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted March 16, 2010 12:02 PM |
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I find a group based on real life experience the most logical one.
Whilst I find them equally important. Sure, you can divide them on paper but you cannot separate them in real life. To me it's not matter of easy-hard, it's just impossible. Life experience is biased by your expectations, emotions, senses and even if at the time you were hungry or tired 
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ohforfsake
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posted March 16, 2010 12:43 PM |
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Quote:
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I find a group based on real life experience the most logical one.
Whilst I find them equally important. Sure, you can divide them on paper but you cannot separate them in real life. To me it's not matter of easy-hard, it's just impossible. Life experience is biased by your expectations, emotions, senses and even if at the time you were hungry or tired
That is not my experience to be honest.
We are talking about wants and lusts here right?
It is true, that upon the experiences of the world I had, I came to my wants, but the wants deduced from there were independent of the experiences, at least I believe so, since it was logical deduced. Though as logic is limited by imagination which then again is limited by experience, one can claim that these do follow eachother, but that I'd say is the process of learning, not deciding on some kind of moral code.
As one learns more, one, to my experience, becomes more and more able to seperate wants and lusts, eventhough the learning to begin with is derived from lusts.
True, if you are hungry you'll act differently, be less patient, but I seldom feel hunger, unless I forget to eat for some days.
That is, if you feel it, then you cannot feel it, but you can prepare yourself, so you won't feel it in the first place.
So by eating reguarly, eventhough not being hungry, one guarantees not to get into a situation, were you have to focus yet your body screams for food and you've made it tough on yourself to learn something. Though in my experience, one can also learn to lower those screams of food.
Same goes probably with being tired and emotions in general I believe.
As you get a control over it this way, you can seperate them. I used to have the habit of when I read some awful news, that I'd imagine myself as some kind of super hero, rescuing the people in need, that'd give me a rush, I got rid of that habit, thereby seperating the emotional response with what I wanted, as the habit gave me nothing productive.
Maybe I misuderstand you though?
Because it is true what you say, that what one expects of life are biased by what we observe (via senses) how the observation affects us (emotions) and what we logically derived to do in certain situations (expectations). (I see both tired and hungry as emotions). However the emotional response can be altered, so can the expectations depending on ones wisdom, etc.
Also about senses contra emotions. It is two fold. A person who can endure pain, can either do so, because the emotional response of pain is lower, or the sense of pain is less. That is both senses and emotions can be affected, or probably both. So you never know, when someone can endure pain, if it is because they feel less pain through their senses, or because they're strong willed and can endure more than others can that comes through emotions.
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Living time backwards
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 16, 2010 02:30 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 14:31, 16 Mar 2010.
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So while it is nice in theory to talk about simplicity maybe it doesn't work in practice
It is just the problem of people not being able to assume some things, so either they lie or they invent silly rules to virtually make things easier. it is much easier to justify your behaviour is right if a rule says so. actually, it exempts you from really justifying yourself.
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To me, eveything that's not the consciousness, is not really you, but tools and effects of the world that you've been randomly given.
yeah, I think the same.
about machines, not only they can't feel emotions but they also can't think and take decisions. they just have to act in a specific way to a specific situation and have no other choice. makes me think of some fears about machine taking over the world, how can that be possible? you can program a machine to kill, but can you program it to have ambition?
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I think that the non caring feature, which you see in serial murders, etc. is something I think is likewise an emotion, because these people may murder randomly, but their reasons seem for what I know often to be that of some kind of a reward mechanism. That is again, emotions, blindly followed.
no need for a reward, some of them just don't realise it's bad. kinda like people are condemned to death and it seems normal (well, not so much today)
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted March 16, 2010 02:55 PM |
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@Ohfor
I understand what you mean because I used to think the same but now I came to the conclussion that with time you don't get the ability to separate your 'wants and lusts' but instead you just fall under the illusion of doing so. You don't separate them, only change the proportions of influence. That is all I have to say
Oh, and I don't have enough attentionspan to read through your entire posts so don't torture me with those
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VokialBG
Honorable
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First in line
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posted March 16, 2010 03:08 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 15:23, 16 Mar 2010.
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1) Sex is just like any drug;
Sex isn't a drug. What about asexual people? They are two types, the first one doesn't feel anything to anyone, the second group are looking for romantic relationship only. They do sex only when their partner needs it, but they don't like it.
Are they something like immune? No.
Are there any people immune to drug addiction? No.
Everyone can get addicted to drugs, but not everyone can get addicted to sex.
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Not listening to your emotions is not always the best move. Take fear. By the time you 'reason' out that yes you should have moved as that car came barrelling down on you..you are already splattered on the road.
The example you give is not emotion. It's the so called Self-preservation instinct. It's the strongest instinct you have, some mothers can leave their babies to die in order to save their lifes. People that can overcome the Self-preservation instinct are very rare. Alcohol, drugs, etc. can make it weaker
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Also you can experience emotions without letting them control you.
I agree here. But... never overdo it. Most of the times (not all) you "kill" your emotions, or make them weaker this way. You may lose something this way. Letting them controling you to often isn't good too. From one extreme to the other.
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As for why would they kill? Easy..because the person inconvienced them, or had something they wanted...etc.
Not the emotions do it. The time when everyone was for himself, taking care of noone, and that can happen again can be called Bellum omnium contra omnes - war of all against all (Hobbes). What prevent it it's the norms - first the customs, later the law customs, the morale norms and the religious norms (not canonical), later the law positive norms. Today - all of them, just the last one do most of the work (not everywhere) and the most effective one. As for the "kids - parents", it's also in the instincts, your nature.
Actually often emotion can make you do something bad.
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ohforfsake
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posted March 16, 2010 03:09 PM |
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You don't separate them, only change the proportions of influence.
Might be, can't say for sure, if it is an illusion, I don't know how to find out.
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Oh, and I don't have enough attentionspan to read through your entire posts so don't torture me with those
Sorry about that, I just try to avoid misunderstandings, so my posts get long and bad constructed.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 16, 2010 07:29 PM |
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Everyone can get addicted to drugs, but not everyone can get addicted to sex.
No, that's not true. There is no difference. If you do not like the effect of a drug you won't become addicted.
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Elodin
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posted March 17, 2010 01:20 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 13:21, 17 Mar 2010.
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Everyone can get addicted to drugs, but not everyone can get addicted to sex.
No, that's not true. There is no difference. If you do not like the effect of a drug you won't become addicted.
Actually, there are people who have phobias about sex or the opposite gender. So not everyone can get addicted to sex.
Sex phobias
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Revelation
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Doomforge
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posted March 24, 2010 09:46 AM |
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And a small update by myself - Still in relationship, and it looks really good (!) since we just like wasting time together, it feels just... comfortable. Even though it will take me a long time to really fall in _love_, I guess, I'm still happy.
****ing finally.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted March 24, 2010 09:47 AM |
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Good to hear, Doomforge. Hope it continues that way. 
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Doomforge
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posted March 24, 2010 09:48 AM |
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Thanks William I do hope so, too. After all, I have traveled for eternity 
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Arcax
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Its quite hot inside...
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posted March 24, 2010 06:19 PM |
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****ing finally.
Finally happy or the other thing on my mind ?
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2010 06:21 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:22, 24 Mar 2010.
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well, there's just one thing to do to not fall in love. to decide to not fall in love.
actually there is that thing called "ego" which is like a mask you are wearing and keeps you away from love.
that is to say, acting in a way which isn't your natural behaviour but doing what you think people expect from you, or in a way that makes you think you are important and which makes other people think you are more important than themselves. or if that doesn't work, making yourself look like a victim.
in any cases that means lying to other people and to yourself. if you don't like yourself to the point you have to lie to yourself, how can you love other people?
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 07:47 PM |
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well, there's just one thing to do to not fall in love. to decide to not fall in love.
actually there is that thing called "ego" which is like a mask you are wearing and keeps you away from love.
that is to say, acting in a way which isn't your natural behaviour but doing what you think people expect from you, or in a way that makes you think you are important and which makes other people think you are more important than themselves.
I disagree. People like me a lot more, if I behave in the way they expect me to.
It's not the ego that is man's social armour, it's fear. It's the fear of people getting under your skin, the fear of people not accepting you for yourself (which is what many strive after, at least subconciously) (don't believe me? Then why do so many people look for a relationship?) and I suppose that can be your ego in a way, because you don't want that "self" of you to be broken, because that really really hurts. Thing is that we hurt others to protect ourselves that way and everyone else does it too. This is why a healthy relationship tends to hurt once in a while, because in a healthy relationship people are close enough to hurt eachother. Schopenhauer added a colourful story about hedgehogs along with this theory.
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