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ohforfsake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted March 24, 2010 07:51 PM |
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Isn't there an old saying that goes like this:
Be yourlsef(act the way you want), and you get to know people who likes you for who you are (and who likely supports that type of action, thereby having more or less the same virtues as you) and not for whom they want you to be?
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Living time backwards
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 07:57 PM |
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Quote:
Isn't there an old saying that goes like this:
Be yourlsef(act the way you want), and you get to know people who likes you for who you are (and who likely supports that type of action, thereby having more or less the same virtues as you) and not for whom they want you to be?
Yes, but some people are afraid of not being accepted so they shape themselves in order to be pleasing around everyone.
And, imagine, what if no one likes you for who you are? 
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2010 07:59 PM |
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People like me a lot more, if I behave in the way they expect me to.
Except that they don't like you, then, but a different person, an illusion.
Which isn't helpful, actually.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2010 08:00 PM |
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Dagoth: Then you change the environment, it's not possible that NOBODY will be compatible with you, the world is big 
Arcax: I meant happiness (or maybe rather, peace?) obviously
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 08:01 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
People like me a lot more, if I behave in the way they expect me to.
Except that they don't like you, then, but a different person, an illusion.
Which isn't helpful, actually.
Hehe, to them it won't be any different. Why should it be to me?
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Then you change the environment, it's not possible that NOBODY will be compatible with you, the world is big
You fail to understand how the shapeshifter feels.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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ohforfsake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted March 24, 2010 08:05 PM |
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And, imagine, what if no one likes you for who you are?
Well, sorry if this sounds cold, but why care? In my opinion, love isn't what others can do for you, but what you can do for others. Even if the people I love, didn't love me, I'd still love them and do all in my power for them to be well.
Edit: When the only reason, for not doing something, is fear, fear of loneliness or lack of acceptable, or anything for that matter, and there's no rationality behind from which you can deduce that it's something you truely want, then I don't think, giving in to the power of these emotions on the basis of what triggers them is doing yourself any favor, and in principle is you being a slave to yourself. Or something.
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Living time backwards
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DagothGares
Responsible
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No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 08:09 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
And, imagine, what if no one likes you for who you are?
Well, sorry if this sounds cold, but why care? In my opinion, love isn't what others can do for you, but what you can do for others. Even if the people I love, didn't love me, I'd still love them and do all in my power for them to be well.
You fail at basic human psychology, ohforf-man.
Man seeks acceptance. It is a basic human need to be social. I do not deny the possibility to rise above this and extend a huge middle finger to mother nature, but that requires things that most lonely people don't have. Why don't they have it? Because they feel unaccepted! I don't necessarily mean romantic relationships here. I mean friends and acquaintances as well.
It takes a while before man accepts himself unconditionally for who he is. In the meantime, people need others to fill this psychological void for you. It's the difference between being a boy and a man in a way.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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DagothGares
Responsible
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No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 08:12 PM |
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When the only reason, for not doing something, is fear, fear of loneliness or lack of acceptable, or anything for that matter, and there's no rationality behind from which you can deduce that it's something you truely want, then I don't think, giving in to the power of these emotions on the basis of what triggers them is doing yourself any favor, and in principle is you being a slave to yourself. Or something.
News flash people: everyone is a slave to someone or something else in a way!
Also, this just in: life is unfair!
And you ARE doing yourself a favour if you feel better because of it. Anything's better than things like growing resentment to the world or suicide. I'm not saying the fear is big. I'm just saying it's THERE.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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ohforfsake
Promising
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Initiate
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posted March 24, 2010 08:20 PM |
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I do not deny the possibility to rise above this and extend a huge middle finger to mother nature, but that requires things that most lonely people don't have.
I think everyone have it, I believe it just takes training/practice. I could of course be wrong though.
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It takes a while before man accepts himself unconditionally for who he is.
It's funny, my memory may be faulty on this matter, because it is such a long time ago, but I recall that was actually exactly how I were when I was much younger. First when I had been a couple of years in public school and some people got worried I had no friends, I got worried as well, due to constant reinforcement by repitition of such a belief. In reality, I believe there just weren't any persons who really interested me, on the other hand, it was some completely different emotions that drove me big time back then, so I never felt lonely, rather I think I went from one "fun"-trip to the other.
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It's the difference between being a boy and a man in a way.
I also think it's a sign of maturity, but I believe maturity can be achieved through the process of thoughts and not only through development via insights from random experience (i.e. getting older).
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everyone is a slave to someone or something else in a way!
Not sure if I follow. You say a want cannot exist, or something else?
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Living time backwards
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 08:29 PM |
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I think everyone have it, I believe it just takes training/practice. I could of course be wrong though.
Courage? Complete rationality? Self-esteem?
very few people have that and with reason.
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I also think it's a sign of maturity, but I believe maturity can be achieved through the process of thoughts and not only through development via insights from random experience (i.e. getting older).
Maturity comes along when people are forced to let more and more stuff go.
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Not sure if I follow. You say a want cannot exist, or something else?
No, I'm saying you're always depending on someone or something and the only way you can hope to survive is to create a form of codependency by providing services and everyone is also a slave to their own wants and desires. Everyone restricts him or herself in certain ways, which isn't a bad thing, mind.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2010 08:34 PM |
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Man seeks acceptance. It is a basic human need to be social. I do not deny the possibility to rise above this and extend a huge middle finger to mother nature, but that requires things that most lonely people don't have. Why don't they have it? Because they feel unaccepted! I don't necessarily mean romantic relationships here. I mean friends and acquaintances as well.
And this is why common psychology is BS to me. Too much "human need is X, humans in situation Y usually do Z". Blah blah blah, everyone is different to a point where making such generalizations usually ends up pointless. I for once need a romantic relationship, but don't give a damn about what people think of me. I don't need their acceptance and I don't care for it. And I absolutely don't feel the urge to be social. Ever.
If I want to talk to ppl, sure, I do it, I meet with them (although I don't really care for bigger groups, it's usually me and mate X) if I want to as well. But if that was impossible because they would not accept me, I wouldn't give a damn.
As long as I have a girlfriend, I don't give a **** about the world, acceptance and social stuff. That's how my weird little brain works.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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DagothGares
Responsible
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No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 08:40 PM |
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And this is why common psychology is BS to me. Too much "human need is X, humans in situation Y usually do Z". Blah blah blah, everyone is different to a point where making such generalizations usually ends up pointless. I for once need a romantic relationship, but don't give a damn about what people think of me. I don't need their acceptance and I don't care for it. And I absolutely don't feel the urge to be social. Ever.
That's because this romantic interest can accept you more than the others can.
You still seek acceptance in other ways.
Or maybe you're mature, whatever.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted March 24, 2010 08:42 PM |
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That's right kids you're not happy until HC declares you happy!
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted March 24, 2010 08:45 PM |
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Well, it would be hard to have a serious relationship without some sort of acceptance, wouldn't it? But that's not really what I seek. It's something that is a prerequisite, not a goal.
It's true that I'm the antisocial kind, however.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2010 08:45 PM |
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well, we could say that in our society, what dagoth says makes sense. in another hand, our society is mostly based on illusions, so if you base your reasoning on an illusion, can it be true? it is kinda like in "Matrix" it seems obviously true, until you get the obvious proof that everything was false.
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Except that they don't like you, then, but a different person, an illusion.
Which isn't helpful, actually.
Hehe, to them it won't be any different. Why should it be to me?
that's what I'm saying above, how often do we see others for what they really are? if I say never, I guess I'm not far from the truth.
and why should it be a problem to you? because you are lying to yourself, and limiting yourself to please other people
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You fail at basic human psychology, ohforf-man.
depends on what you call psychology. the occidental view of psychology is that people should be normal, that is to say, being as ignorant as an average person. not being yourself, lying, manipulating people, devaluating or overevaluating yourself for example aren't considered mental illness, except if you do it much more than the average person.
in another hand, being much more intelligent than the average person could be considered a mental illness, for example, if your opinions go against the opinions of the majority, even if you are true and everyone else wrong.
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News flash people: everyone is a slave to someone or something else in a way!
it's probably not far from the truth, but very few people realise it
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 24, 2010 08:47 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I think everyone have it, I believe it just takes training/practice. I could of course be wrong though.
Courage? Complete rationality? Self-esteem?
very few people have that and with reason.
Sorry for the big amount of quoting, what I meant with "it" was the possibility (like you wrote in what I responed to). And I mean the possibility to be completely rational in ones action, thereby only doing the things you want, or at least know them.
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Maturity comes along when people are forced to let more and more stuff go.
I'm not sure I understand how you got to that conclusion.
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No, I'm saying you're always depending on someone or something and the only way you can hope to survive is to create a form of codependency by providing services
By the way society is today, in most countries, yes I agree, we're sadly very dependent on eachother.
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and everyone is also a slave to their own wants
We might have a different understanding of wants, or slavery, but you can't be a slave to your own wants, by the way I use those terms.
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and desires.
That I think was the point of my reply, many seem to let into irrational desire/lust, like a rewarding mechanism, which in the long run probably does more bad than good.
Just take the example you came with yourself, if people didn't give in to their fear and acted like the way others wanted them to, to be accepted, but rather how they'd like to be, it's very likely the odds of them getting out of the environment what they want is higher, because it automatically creates a gradient towards such environment.
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Everyone restricts him or herself in certain ways, which isn't a bad thing, mind.
I think it is, when it's not necessary to do so, to get your wants completed, as we all have certain priorities. I can't logically prove it is though, as I can't imagine something that would govern all possible cases, however I can tell a bit of my life story, if anything, it might be humorous.
So I had this crush on this girl back somewhere in high school. At first I was going all like, "oh why won't she speak to me, oh why won't she speak to me!?" Then I looked upon my own actions and thought them meaningless, wondering if I not should just speak to her and declare my intentions. However I had developed a fear of what my classmates would think of me! So in stead, I turned it around, and questioned, why shoud I give in to the emotions produced from my feelings into her? In principle, she's just a random girl who looks good, and that's it. Anyway, I came up with the most stupid way to prove to myself that I weren't controlled by these emotions, many days I'd long for her talking to me, and when she did, I got so joyful, eventhough it might just have been a simple "hi" or "how are you doing?". So the way I came up with was that if I could say no, if she asked me out on a date, would prove that I in fact could control these feelings, what I didn't realise was that it's not any single action that decides if I'm in control or not, it's how I act daily, if I follow my wants or let random emotions get in the way for what I want. Anyway, the day never came (she never asked me), and as one might expect, the "NO" response got an emotional attachment to it as well, which confused me, because now, if she'd asked me and I said yes, I'd get a reward boots, and if she'd asked me and I had said no, I'd get a reward boots.
The point is, that it doesn't matter if one gets the reward boots or not, the point is to find out what you want and then practice to make the reward boots to follow the path of what you want, because it doesn't matter, given you want to do even A, that someone comes by before you start doing even A, and tells you to do event A, for thereafter claiming you're his slave. Because you wanted to do event A.
I think it's somewhat the same logic as used by Mvass on the matter of determinsim. It doesn't matter if the world is completely deterministic, i.e. you've no choice upon your actions, as long as those actions are also what you want to do anyway. (Then it doesn't matter if it is you who tells you arm to go somewhere or the puppet master, as long as it's what you want). 
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so if you base your reasoning on an illusion, can it be true?
Yes, I think it can be regarded as true, but it requires for two types of truths to be defined. Absolute truth and relative truth.
Absolute truth are truths independent of your knowledge, whereas relative truth (which I believe is what science uses) is truth achieved by your current knowledge, through observation via measurement, etc.
Whatever limits ones logic, to the degree of what it requires for a statement to be justified and thereby regarded as true, that's what the given person can relate to, so for them, until further evidence is shown, that's the truth. I think it's the same as when people say perception is reality.
I really like your matrix example, because it makes it easy to relate to and come with an example of why. You say the matrix was merely an illusion / false / (maybe even a lie):
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it is kinda like in "Matrix" it seems obviously true, until you get the obvious proof that everything was false.
Because if the given matrix is made in such a way that people cannot tell the difference of this simulated world and the reality, it's by terms of relative truth (what we can measure) reality and should be regarded in that way until further evidence is shown. After all, if one only would try to follow absolute truths, one would run into problems such as we can't know if we're in a simulated world as well, which might as well be in a simulated world, etc.
The only absolute truth I can think of, is the phrase I like to use "I observe, thereby I am", which really only counts for the current moment of time.
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mvassilev
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posted March 24, 2010 08:53 PM |
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Psychology is good at describing the actions of the average person.
But who wants to be the average person?
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You fail to understand how the shapeshifter feels.
Then the shapeshifter should GRIT THOSE TEETH and get over it. Seriously, there's no other way around it.
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Eccentric Opinion
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 09:06 PM |
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that's what I'm saying above, how often do we see others for what they really are?
It's impossible to know someone else for 100%, because most don't even know themselves for 100%. And you can never truly one's thoughts, so...
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I'm not sure I understand how you got to that conclusion.
As you grow older you let stuff go. that is growing older: you first lose your place inside your mother, then your pacifier, then your blanket, then as you go along your parents, your friends, your privileges, until you stand all alone. In my mind, THAT is growing older; Why are we forced to think about things? because we're curious in some cases, but we think a lot more when we're unhappy, so we grow in unhappiness. When are we unhappy? When we lose things!
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because you are lying to yourself, and limiting yourself to please other people
We always do this, it's not a bad thing.
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in another hand, being much more intelligent than the average person could be considered a mental illness, for example, if your opinions go against the opinions of the majority, even if you are true and everyone else wrong.
Psychology isn't a field in searh of right and wrong or average (well, in a way, it is) (the reasoning is that if the person can't be happy in his own way (subnormal) they try to make him happy in a regular way (so they try to average his thoughts out, which is for the better if the person is happy with his current thoughts to the point that it disables him), it's a field trying to understand the psyche by establishing general truths and trying to create happiness and/ or understanding based on those.
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We might have a different understanding of wants, or slavery, but you can't be a slave to your own wants, by the way I use those terms.
You can't be absolutely free, if your world is just narrowed down to what you want, now can you?
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Just take the example you came with yourself, if people didn't give in to their fear and acted like the way others wanted them to, to be accepted, but rather how they'd like to be, it's very likely the odds of them getting out of the environment what they want is higher, because it automatically creates a gradient towards such environment.
But imagine there being no such environment in their mind. They can't risk losing their current one, if there isn't. better to be content than risk losing it all for being satisfied and/ or happy.
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Then the shapeshifter should GRIT THOSE TEETH and get over it. Seriously, there's no other way around it.
Yeah, i know, people need to grow up. I don't need to be convinced of this, but saying that to a young mind is like telling a seed to sprout roots and bear fruit already.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 24, 2010 09:06 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 21:07, 24 Mar 2010.
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Psychology is good at describing the actions of the average person.
But who wants to be the average person?
yeah exactly
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By the way society is today, in most countries, yes I agree, we're sadly very dependent on eachother.
actually we have always been dependent on other people, the current problem is that the society tend to deny that and value individualism.
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It takes a while before man accepts himself unconditionally for who he is.
It is absolutely wrong and it is completely the contrary. A newly born baby will accept himself unconditionally for who he is, but that's the society, the environment, the parents, who, by telling him how to act will condition him in a way that he won't accept himself for who he is.
hence that sentence : "you must unlearn all you've learned"
contrary to popular belief, wisdom doesn't come from experience, I think young children are extremly wise.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 24, 2010 09:11 PM |
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It is absolutely wrong and it is completely the contrary. A newly born baby will accept himself unconditionally for who he is, but that's the society, the environment, the parents, who, by telling him how to act will condition him in a way that he won't accept himself for who he is.
hence that sentence : "you must unlearn all you've learned"
NO!
This is exactly the opposite of the psychology I have learned. people are born as small, insignificant little snows and they know it! they know that all thos egiants could easily crush them. they know those giants are a lot smarter than them and they know they are entirely dependant on these giants to stay alive, so humans are born submissive, thinking everyone other than themselves higher than themelves. You are right, society is conditioning the child, but the child will gladly swallow all that. He won't resist. Why? Because the child knows its lesser than everyone around him.
Unlearning all you've learned is weak by the way. The most important thing to do in order to grow up is for the person to reconcile his basic wants with his basic values and accept them to be a part of him. Do you follow?
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